FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

[Ran]

Alternatively, there never was a Targaryen prince who dressed up a monkey and pretended it was his son, because the whole point of Axell's story was to mock the uneducated-and-upjumped Davos, not share a real bit of history.  

Re: small council, I'm not sure what you mean. Aegon's small council is referred to explicitly in TWoIaF. Jaehaerys formalized what was merely customary.

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, Bennings said:

This means we have the names and ruling years of every Hand of the King up to the Regency...except, rather irritatingly, the two-year gap between Murmison in 41 AC and Lucas Harroway in 43 AC. 

Not necessarily, or are you certain that Jaehaerys I had only Rogar Baratheon, Septon Barth, Ryam Redwyne, Prince Baelon, and Otto Hightower as Hands?

I expect King Aenys didn't name a new Hand after the murder of Murmison. The man was fleeing for his life and then he grew ill and died. Maegor also may have had other priorities than naming a Hand while he was personally fighting his wars. This is not a time where the Handship was yet as important as I think it was later under Aerys II ;-). Especially since Maegor could heavily rely on his mother Visenya to act in a Hand-like capacity for him and was also supported by Alys and Tyanna.

Under Aegon the power structure at court was still different. The king had co-rulers in Rhaenys and Visenya, and the Hand and the other advisers were serving them more or less collectively. The queens were not just consorts and advisers to Aegon I, they shared his rule with him. And while Visenya no longer had the same influence under King Aenys, she was still pretty powerful (organizing the campaigns to put down the rebels, for instance), and she wielded all her old power - or even more - in the first two years of Maegor's reign. Until Maegor married Tyanna and Visenya removed herself to Dragonstone.

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, Ran said:

Alternatively, there never was a Targaryen prince who dressed up a monkey and pretended it was his son, because the whole point of Axell's story was to mock the uneducated-and-upjumped Davos, not share a real bit of history.  

Yeah, but that's far too, well, convenient a *funny story* to not give me the bone I craved for soo long a time ;-). I should really show up in an ape costume wearing a crown at some con.

But the subtle twist I really want to see there is that Axell himself is both the fool and the ape - the fool for telling a story that he may have wanted to be based on facts (it could have worked just as well to tell the story that Queen Visenya once had a fool and then replaced him with an ape wearing the fool's clothes) and the ape because he actually does nothing but ape Melisandre and Selyse - the best example for that being the references to the 'visions' he claims to have, etc.

But perhaps I'm far too obsessed with this tiny little detail.

37 minutes ago, Ran said:

Re: small council, I'm not sure what you mean. Aegon's small council is referred to explicitly in TWoIaF. Jaehaerys formalized what was merely customary.

Oh, I think we really made too much about what your exact wording was there, imagining/thinking that there effectively was no Small Council prior to Jaehaerys I - which really never made all that much sense, especially in light of Aenys' Great Council idea.

[AlaskanSandman]

The bit about the Septons i think is more important than we know. The fact there is a sept on Dragonstone i have always thought odd since the construction of Dragonstone predates the arrival of the Targaryens, and Aegon and his family never showed the skill to build in the manner of Dragonstone. 

[naseridrl]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Some even suggest that she might have been a kinslayer and a kingslayer, though no proof has ever been offered to support such calumnies.

It would be a cruel irony if true, for in her youth no one did more to protect the king. 

I mean its not beyond the realms of possibility.  But I also feel like she's an easy target. to blame if something bad happens.   I'd prefer to think its just about Aenys but I'm sure the full chapter might help work it out a bit better.  

[AlaskanSandman]

18 minutes ago, naseridrl said:

I mean its not beyond the realms of possibility.  But I also feel like she's an easy target. to blame if something bad happens.   I'd prefer to think its just about Aenys but I'm sure the full chapter might help work it out a bit better.  

Well it does fit with what is said in TWOIAF about Visenya  after her death, being dubbed a kin slayer and king slayer of Aenys,

[Shmedricko]

Ser Osmund was the king's fourth Hand. His first had been Lord Orys Baratheon, his bastard half-brother and companion of his youth, but Lord Orys was taken captive during the Dornish War and suffered the loss of his sword hand. When ransomed back, his lordship asked the king to be relieved of his duties. "The King's Hand should have a hand," he said. "I will not have men speaking of the King's Stump." (Fire & Blood)

Jaime hugged her, his good hand pressing against the small of her back. He smelled of ash, but the morning sun was in his hair, giving it a golden glow. She wanted to draw his face to hers for a kiss. Later, she told herself, later he will come to me, for comfort. "We are his heirs, Jaime," she whispered. "It will be up to us to finish his work. You must take Father's place as Hand. You see that now, surely. Tommen will need you . . ."

He pushed away from her and raised his arm, forcing his stump into her face. "A Hand without a hand? A bad jape, sister. Don't ask me to rule." (Cersei I, AFFC)

[Alyssa of House Arryn]

The excerpt refers to Orys as Aegon's half-brother... so now it's official that they were bothers, not just a rumor?

[Ran]

@Alyssa of House Arryn

It is a history written by an in-world maester who is not a contemporary of many of the figures he writes about. Given that in ASoIaF Orys's relation to Aegon is a matter of rumor and historical conjecture, what I would take out of this that Gyldayn believes to his satisfaction that Orys was the bastard half-brother of Aegon and so states it as fact, but that his certainty on the subject is unorthodox.

[Bael's Bastard]

@Ran

Do we get any idea of the different sources Gyldayn uses for information for different reigns? 

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Ran

Do we get any idea of the different sources Gyldayn uses for information for different reigns? 

In some cases, yes.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

Ser Osmund was the king's fourth Hand. His first had been Lord Orys Baratheon, his bastard half-brother and companion of his youth, but Lord Orys was taken captive during the Dornish War and suffered the loss of his sword hand. When ransomed back, his lordship asked the king to be relieved of his duties. "The King's Hand should have a hand," he said. "I will not have men speaking of the King's Stump." (Fire & Blood)

Jaime hugged her, his good hand pressing against the small of her back. He smelled of ash, but the morning sun was in his hair, giving it a golden glow. She wanted to draw his face to hers for a kiss. Later, she told herself, later he will come to me, for comfort. "We are his heirs, Jaime," she whispered. "It will be up to us to finish his work. You must take Father's place as Hand. You see that now, surely. Tommen will need you . . ."

He pushed away from her and raised his arm, forcing his stump into her face. "A Hand without a hand? A bad jape, sister. Don't ask me to rule." (Cersei I, AFFC)

Those Hand jokes are really, well, obvious. One can see that as a reference to Jaime, but then, any man who thinks of himself as a great warrior who lacks a hand and is supposed to serve in an office that's called 'the Hand' is going to feel as if somebody is trying to make fun of him...

2 hours ago, Ran said:

@Alyssa of House Arryn

It is a history written by an in-world maester who is not a contemporary of many of the figures he writes about. Given that in ASoIaF Orys's relation to Aegon is a matter of rumor and historical conjecture, what I would take out of this that Gyldayn believes to his satisfaction that Orys was the bastard half-brother of Aegon and so states it as fact, but that his certainty on the subject is unorthodox.

I actually wonder if Orys Baratheon is actually ever mentioned or properly discussed in the main series? We have the appendix of AGoT, of course, partially repeated in the appendix of ADwD, but that isn't exactly all that much an in-world source, is it?

While Orys is never mentioned as such in the ASoIaF main text, Lady Olenna makes a queer reference here:

Quote

Her grandmother snorted. "Gallant, yes, and charming, and very clean. He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king. The Baratheons have always had some queer notions, to be sure. It comes from their Targaryen blood, I should think." She sniffed. "They tried to marry me to a Targaryen once, but I soon put an end to that."

Considering Olenna's age and the fact that her experience with Baratheons should not be limited to Steffon Baratheon and his sons - who inherited their fresh dose of Targaryen blood from Princess Rhaelle - this seems to be a remark that the house as such is seen to be of Targaryen descent.

We do know no Targaryen actually married into the main branch of House Baratheon aside from Princess Rhaelle. There is a small chance, one imagines, that Egg's sisters Daella or Rhae married Lyonel's eldest son - whose son could then be Ormund Baratheon if the man was Lyonel's grandson as seems to be the case. A similar thing could also work with Vaella the Simple, but that's really it. The only confirmed marriage between Houses Baratheon and Targaryen at this point are Jocelyn and Aemon, and their line continued House Velaryon, not House Targaryen or House Baratheon. And if Aerea or Rhaella had married Boremund we would most likely know that, too. Then Borros would have likely aimed for the Iron Throne himself rather than just liking it that both sides were courting him.

That throws us back to the idea that Orys Baratheon was indeed Aerion Targaryen's son - which would mean all the Baratheons are a cadet branch of House Targaryen from the start.

How those 'rumors' about Lord Aerion and Orys actually sound like would be a very interesting thing. They would have to be contemporary rumors involving Lord Aerion and Orys' mother considering the fact that Orys didn't have Valyrian looks (aside from the possibility of his black eyes being the usual 'very dark purple' ;-)). Just because Orys was Aegon's best friend and childhood companion doesn't make him his half-brother.

If George ever came around to flashing out the Targaryens on Dragonstone the mystery around Orys Baratheon would most likely have to be resolved one way or another. Or rather: We would get much closer to 'the truth' than we are right now...

And considering that Renly's remarks here

Quote

Renly shrugged. "Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?" He did not wait for an answer. "Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer."

are blatantly false (although not the one about only the maesters caring about any of that - that one is very true in-world - this obsession with claims and precedents and customs we all show when discussing stuff like that would make us look like utter fools if we actually lived in Westeros ;-)). George himself closed the door on those blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, especially those involving second sons and elder daughters. A semblance of that could be saved if some Targaryen-Velaryons or Targaryen-Hightowers or even Targaryen-Penroses end up marrying into House Baratheon, but that would scarcely help with the thing.

One really has to take a step back and actually consider that these people aren't really all that obsessed with their family trees are real world nobles are - or at least should be, if they live up to the cliché.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

In some cases, yes.

Ok, thanks. It would be cool to get an idea of which maesters, septons, etc. were sources of information for period such as the Conquest, or the reigns of Aegon, Aenys, Maegor, Jaehaerys, etc., even if it was not as specific and detailed as the Dance and pre-Dance sections, which gives us an indication of which sources (Runciter, Munkun, Eustace, Mushroom) said what. We are told that Gyldayn's history of the Conquest is as complete as any, but what accounts is Gyldayn using and interpreting? What are the accounts that Gyldayn's is "as complete as"? What are the accounts that agree that Aegon I was in the Chamber of the Painted Table, recounting tales of the Conquest to his grandsons Aegon and Viserys, when he died? I suppose we won't necessarily get answers to these questions. But it would be cool to get a better idea of who were some of the main sources who set down accounts of the reigns of the early Targaryen kings.

[Ran]

You'll definitely get info related to some of Gyldayn's sources on Jaehaerys, for example, but I wouldn't consider it exhaustive. There are plenty of passages in F&B where Gyldayn just writes events and even quotes dialogues and speeches where we've no idea what the "source" is supposed to be. And to be fair, this is very much in keeping with medieval historiography -- they were pretty bad about sourcing!

And on the topic of Gyldayn and sourcing:

The appendices are written by George, as he's said previously. The appendices are as close to "out of world" knowledge one gets, besides George's direct statements, so in fact that's pretty indicative! Maybe George changed his mind since ADwD.,.. but on the other hand, I happen to know for a fact that other parts of F&B treat Orys's parentage as a matter of speculation rather than certainty, so again, the important point is that GRRM is very cognizant that he's writing in the voice of a maester long-removed from the events he's writing about, and that he's chosen to give him biases and certainties that may not reflect what really did or did not happen. They are A history, not THE history. This doesn't mean you can't trust any of it! But it does mean that when you come across contradictions in which some say this and some say that, that's generally a feature, not a bug, of the narrative technique being used.

Perhaps one might take from all of this that Gyldayn fell strongly on the side of Orys being a half-brother to Aegon for political reasons relevant to when he was working. Or maybe he was a stormlander, maybe even a Baratheon relation, and it pleased him to think he had a drop of dragon in him so much that he selected the sources that fanned his vanity. Who knows, besides George?

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering Olenna's age and the fact that her experience with Baratheons should not be limited to Steffon Baratheon and his sons - who inherited their fresh dose of Targaryen blood from Princess Rhaelle - this seems to be a remark that the house as such is seen to be of Targaryen descent.

We do know no Targaryen actually married into the main branch of House Baratheon aside from Princess Rhaelle. There is a small chance, one imagines, that Egg's sisters Daella or Rhae married Lyonel's eldest son - whose son could then be Ormund Baratheon if the man was Lyonel's grandson as seems to be the case. A similar thing could also work with Vaella the Simple, but that's really it. The only confirmed marriage between Houses Baratheon and Targaryen at this point are Jocelyn and Aemon, and their line continued House Velaryon, not House Targaryen or House Baratheon. And if Aerea or Rhaella had married Boremund we would most likely know that, too. Then Borros would have likely aimed for the Iron Throne himself rather than just liking it that both sides were courting him.

That throws us back to the idea that Orys Baratheon was indeed Aerion Targaryen's son - which would mean all the Baratheons are a cadet branch of House Targaryen from the start.

How those 'rumors' about Lord Aerion and Orys actually sound like would be a very interesting thing. They would have to be contemporary rumors involving Lord Aerion and Orys' mother considering the fact that Orys didn't have Valyrian looks (aside from the possibility of his black eyes being the usual 'very dark purple' ;-)). Just because Orys was Aegon's best friend and childhood companion doesn't make him his half-brother.

Although we don't know who inherited House Targaryen after Borros died, through Alyssa Velaryon, both Boremund and Jocelyn, and thus also their descendants, had Targaryen blood, without giving Borros a good enough  claim for the throne to make such an attempt.

And let's not forget Rhaena's six daughters.

 

On the other hand, Olenna also claims to have been the one to end her betrothal (which she does not describe as a betrothal, but what it definitly was), but history disagrees so perhaps she is exaggerating the truth here as well.

[The hairy bear]

Another great piece. I love how detailed and precise is the book, with lots of dates and exhaustive listings. If all F&B follows the same pattern, it will be truly great.

Regarding the Small Council, we know the masters of laws, ships and coin were part of Aegon's council since before the Conquest. The Grand Maesters were added at 5 AC, and the Commanders of the Kingsguard at 10 AC. I wonder if Tyanna of Pentos was the first Master of Whispers.

 

[The Grey Wolf]

4 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Another great piece. I love how detailed and precise is the book, with lots of dates and exhaustive listings. If all F&B follows the same pattern, it will be truly great.

Regarding the Small Council, we know the masters of laws, ships and coin were part of Aegon's council since before the Conquest. The Grand Maesters were added at 5 AC, and the Commanders of the Kingsguard at 10 AC. I wonder if Tyanna of Pentos was the first Master of Whispers.

 

I agree. The language isn't dry at all to me and I'm a sucker for worldbuilding so this scratches my itch very well.

Anyway, if Tyanna was the first I wonder if Jaehaerys I discontinued the office...Which would imply that the Greens brought it back to get Larys on their side.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I actually wonder if Orys Baratheon is actually ever mentioned or properly discussed in the main series? We have the appendix of AGoT, of course, partially repeated in the appendix of ADwD, but that isn't exactly all that much an in-world source, is it?

While Orys is never mentioned as such in the ASoIaF main text, Lady Olenna makes a queer reference here:

Considering Olenna's age and the fact that her experience with Baratheons should not be limited to Steffon Baratheon and his sons - who inherited their fresh dose of Targaryen blood from Princess Rhaelle - this seems to be a remark that the house as such is seen to be of Targaryen descent.

We do know no Targaryen actually married into the main branch of House Baratheon aside from Princess Rhaelle. There is a small chance, one imagines, that Egg's sisters Daella or Rhae married Lyonel's eldest son - whose son could then be Ormund Baratheon if the man was Lyonel's grandson as seems to be the case. A similar thing could also work with Vaella the Simple, but that's really it. The only confirmed marriage between Houses Baratheon and Targaryen at this point are Jocelyn and Aemon, and their line continued House Velaryon, not House Targaryen or House Baratheon. And if Aerea or Rhaella had married Boremund we would most likely know that, too. Then Borros would have likely aimed for the Iron Throne himself rather than just liking it that both sides were courting him.

That throws us back to the idea that Orys Baratheon was indeed Aerion Targaryen's son - which would mean all the Baratheons are a cadet branch of House Targaryen from the start.

How those 'rumors' about Lord Aerion and Orys actually sound like would be a very interesting thing. They would have to be contemporary rumors involving Lord Aerion and Orys' mother considering the fact that Orys didn't have Valyrian looks (aside from the possibility of his black eyes being the usual 'very dark purple' ;-)). Just because Orys was Aegon's best friend and childhood companion doesn't make him his half-brother.

If George ever came around to flashing out the Targaryens on Dragonstone the mystery around Orys Baratheon would most likely have to be resolved one way or another. Or rather: We would get much closer to 'the truth' than we are right now...

And considering that Renly's remarks here

are blatantly false (although not the one about only the maesters caring about any of that - that one is very true in-world - this obsession with claims and precedents and customs we all show when discussing stuff like that would make us look like utter fools if we actually lived in Westeros ;-)). George himself closed the door on those blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, especially those involving second sons and elder daughters. A semblance of that could be saved if some Targaryen-Velaryons or Targaryen-Hightowers or even Targaryen-Penroses end up marrying into House Baratheon, but that would scarcely help with the thing.

One really has to take a step back and actually consider that these people aren't really all that obsessed with their family trees are real world nobles are - or at least should be, if they live up to the cliché.

@Lord Varys

Orys Baratheon is one of the characters whose backstories I am most interested to know more about. Even without getting a definitive answers as to whether or not he was truly fathered by Aerion, it would be interesting to know more about whether he was actually raised for any amount of time by a mother and/or father, or perhaps orphaned at a young age and somehow taken in to be a companion or friend to Aegon. I always wondered if he got his Baratheon surname from his mother, from a husband of his mother who may or may not have actually been his father, or if he took the name later in life, perhaps around the time of the Conquest.

Whatever the actual truth of these matters, it is also interesting to consider the in-world author that is interpreting the sources for us in their work, the times and context he is living and writing in, and the people and events that might be influencing his interpretations. I don't know whether Fire and Blood is supposed to be a life long work of Gyldayn's, or something he is supposed to have written in the last years of his life, but whatever the case, the relationship between the Baratheons and Targaryens was very much a current and relevant issue in the twenty plus years leading up to the Summerhall Tragedy in 259 AC, which Gyldayn was present for.

Lyonel Baratheon had become acquainted with and befriended the young Prince Aegon in 209 AC, and by the time of Aegon V's accession in 233 AC, Lyonel was one of his firmest friends and most leal supporters. And after nearly thirty years of friendship, Aegon agreed to betroth his eldest son and heir Prince Duncan to Lyonel's daughter in 237 AC. Yet in 239 AC, twenty years before the Summerhall Tragedy, Duncan broke his betrothal to wed Jenny of Oldstones, and the grief, shame, and wroth it caused Lyonel's daughter, House Baratheon, and Lyonel himself led to him swearing bloody vengeance, renouncing his allegiance to the Iron Throne, and crowning himself Storm King.

Peace between Baratheon and Targaryen was only restored after Ser Duncan defeated Lyonel in a Trial by Combat, Prince Duncan renounced his claim to the crown and throne, and Aegon V gave his solemn word that his youngest daughter Rhaelle would wed Lyonel's heir, and would serve as Lyonel's cupbearer and his lady wife's companion. In 245 AC, Rhaelle fulfilled Aegon's promise, and wed Lyonel's heir Ormund, who was by then Lord Baratheon. And the following year, in 246 AC, about seven years after the start of Lyonel's rebellion, Rhaelle gave birth to Steffon, who went on to become a royal page at court, becoming close with Prince Aerys (II).

After Jaehaerys II became king, he named as his Hand Lord Ormund Baratheon, the husband of his youngest sister Rhaelle, father of his teenage nephew Steffon, and heir of the deceased Lord Lyonel, and charged him with commanding the royal forces against the Ninepenny Kings, though it's unclear how long after Summerhall Gyldayn might have lived to know any of that.

So it is in such a time and context that Gyldayn apparently believes that Orys was in fact a bastard half brother of Aegon I. Why might he believe that? Was Orys's relation to Aegon widely believed or accepted in Gyldayn's own days? Did he believe it, being compelled by some source or argument or whim, contrary to a popular belief that there was no such relation? What, if anything, did Aegon V and the other Targaryens believe about the Baratheon founder's paternity?

I don't expect to really get any answers on this, but I find Orys to be one of the most interesting characters with a background I'd love to know more about. And I look forward to reading what Gyldayn has to say about the Baratheons, both of the past and during his own lifetime and time of his writings, in Fire and Blood Volumes I and II.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Although we don't know who inherited House Targaryen after Borros died, through Alyssa Velaryon, both Boremund and Jocelyn, and thus also their descendants, had Targaryen blood, without giving Borros a good enough  claim for the throne to make such an attempt.

But that it is not enough to really justify Olenna talking about their Targaryen blood 250 years later. Alyssa Velaryon herself had Valyrian looks, but not exactly all that much Targaryen blood considering it is confirmed her mother wasn't a Targaryen, which makes Aenys and Alyssa actually closer cousins on the Velaryon side of the family than on the Targaryen - and the same goes for Corlys and Rhaenys later on. We don't even know how closely Valaena and Aethan were related. If they are from two different branches of House Velaryon then Alyssa may in fact have no or only very distant Targaryen ancestors.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

And let's not forget Rhaena's six daughters.

I didn't forget them.

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

On the other hand, Olenna also claims to have been the one to end her betrothal (which she does not describe as a betrothal, but what it definitly was), but history disagrees so perhaps she is exaggerating the truth here as well.

I think she may be exaggerating there, although I'm sure Olenna Redwyne certainly also had something to do with the Daeron thing. I mean, one cannot see her being involved in something and not playing a crucial part in whatever happens ;-). But she doesn't have a reason to play up the Targaryen blood of the Baratheons if they actually have pretty much none. Or at least much less than the Plumms, Martells, Penroses, etc.

[Ran]

Of course it's enough to justify Olenna in saying whatever the hell she wants. She has loads of opinions which are substantiated on nothing but, well, her own opinion. 

To settle matter, let me share a passage from TWoIaF:

Quote

The favor that Aegon the Conqueror showered upon Orys Baratheon made many credit the rumors that he was Aegon’s bastard half brother. Though never proved, that tale is widely believed to this very day.

That specific passage is from George, an addition he made as he revised and expanded our own first draft. This is, of course, Yandel's take on the history, and from what George put there, the orthodoxy is that it is an unsubstantiated rumor but a widely-believed one (which fits everything we read in ASoIaF). Gyldayn's history is somewhat unorthodox in this regard (though again, in the Conquest section he treats the parentage as something that is whispered and rumored, so even he is not absolute).