FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

[Curled Finger]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think @Ran meant the clash between fire and ice magic in his talk about inimical magic. Keep in mind that this is 'A Song of Ice and Fire' and this scene we are talking about here is, perhaps, one of the scenes in the as of yet finished books cutting to the magical dimension of that title.

Silverwing is fire. The Others are ice. These two things do not easily mix. And if Silverwing can avoid the Others and their magic she does just that. Which is the troublesome part I referred to earlier - the the dragons do fear the Others things may get very ugly in the not-so-distant future.

Vice versa, one should seriously keep in mind what a dragon at the Wall means if you are the Others or whatever mind or power directs the Others. And what it in general meant that there were a score or more dragons in Westeros. Think what may have happened if Rhaenyra and Aegon had said 'Fuck this succession nonsense, we want to see what's in the Land of Always Winter. Let's take our dragons there and find out!'

It might have been the end of the Others and the Heart of Winter. If whoever lives/is at the Heart of Winter can look down south that power would have smirked when the dragons killed each other, and laughed out loud when the last dragon died in 153 AC. But a dragon at the Wall in Jaehaerys' days wouldn't have been something the Others would like. It makes sense that they would send the very loud and explicit message to the dragon of 'GO AWAY! LEAVE US ALONE! WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!' And Silverwing may have heard that message loud and clear.

If you ask me, the Others (or who-/whatever is behind them) set the grand plan in motion after the last dragon died. The fun thing is that this idea the Others were gone for thousands of years might just be nonsense - it might just be that they realized (after they had recovered from the defeat they supposedly suffered during the War for the Dawn) that they could not possibly made an attack now with hundreds (or thousands) of dragons around in Valyria. And after the Valyrians were gone, the dragons came to Westeros.

Only after the dragons were gone could the Others start their plans. Before that, the grand enterprise might have been futile or stillborn.

I'm not sure the wights thing is truly a variation of the skinchanger thing. It might be 'related magic' but I very much doubt it is the same thing. Skinchanged animals/humans reflect the intelligence of the beings that possess them (if possible). But the wights do not seem to be intelligent. They sort of follow a program, but they don't try to speak or communicate or show any signs of higher intelligence.

Lord Varys, though it's clear the Others are sentient--sneaky SOBs without a doubt--your statements about the Others plotting and planning are odd to me. We've had tons of discussion regarding the why of now that the Others are making themselves known.   Dragons have been gone a very long time.   Hell, the Others have been "gone" a very long time.  (Here's some tin foil for the fire--Silverwing's presence "sparked" the Others to wake or recombine or pay attention!)  I'm interpreting an omniscience or omnipresence with the Others that's hard to get my head around.  

If the Others have a higher consciousness the 2nd bolded statement makes a lot of sense.    I think I just need to understand the 1st a little better.   

[Lady Barbrey]

40 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think @Ran meant the clash between fire and ice magic in his talk about inimical magic. Keep in mind that this is 'A Song of Ice and Fire' and this scene we are talking about here is, perhaps, one of the scenes in the as of yet finished books cutting to the magical dimension of that title.

Silverwing is fire. The Others are ice. These two things do not easily mix. And if Silverwing can avoid the Others and their magic she does just that. Which is the troublesome part I referred to earlier - the the dragons do fear the Others things may get very ugly in the not-so-distant future.

Vice versa, one should seriously keep in mind what a dragon at the Wall means if you are the Others or whatever mind or power directs the Others. And what it in general meant that there were a score or more dragons in Westeros. Think what may have happened if Rhaenyra and Aegon had said 'Fuck this succession nonsense, we want to see what's in the Land of Always Winter. Let's take our dragons there and find out!'

It might have been the end of the Others and the Heart of Winter. If whoever lives/is at the Heart of Winter can look down south that power would have smirked when the dragons killed each other, and laughed out loud when the last dragon died in 153 AC. But a dragon at the Wall in Jaehaerys' days wouldn't have been something the Others would like. It makes sense that they would send the very loud and explicit message to the dragon of 'GO AWAY! LEAVE US ALONE! WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!' And Silverwing may have heard that message loud and clear.

If you ask me, the Others (or who-/whatever is behind them) set the grand plan in motion after the last dragon died. The fun thing is that this idea the Others were gone for thousands of years might just be nonsense - it might just be that they realized (after they had recovered from the defeat they supposedly suffered during the War for the Dawn) that they could not possibly made an attack now with hundreds (or thousands) of dragons around in Valyria. And after the Valyrians were gone, the dragons came to Westeros.

Only after the dragons were gone could the Others start their plans. Before that, the grand enterprise might have been futile or stillborn.

I'm not sure the wights thing is truly a variation of the skinchanger thing. It might be 'related magic' but I very much doubt it is the same thing. Skinchanged animals/humans reflect the intelligence of the beings that possess them (if possible). But the wights do not seem to be intelligent. They sort of follow a program, but they don't try to speak or communicate or show any signs of higher intelligence.

Just adding to my last response to this same post, Lord Varys, because synthesizing your post to 'No trespassing' and the Heart of Winter reminded me of Bran's traumatizing experience, while in the South, when he dreamed of flying past the Wall to the Heart of Winter and was confronted with that 'curtain', and whatever he glimpsed beyond it terrified him to tears.  No trespassing indeed.

And perhaps that's what Ran is indicating when he says the Wall keeps out the magic of the whole Far North, emanating from the Heart of Winter, and that's what Silverwing sensed.

I am still wondering about the one-directional thing.  Bran can see or dream past the Wall from the South but only to a point, it seems.  He's a powerful greenseer but even he seems to have to go North of the Wall if he wants to see past that curtain?

Jon loses Ghost when Ghost is in the North.  Also, Ghost knows Summer is in the North  but can no longer sense him.  That curious line about sensing 4 of his brothers, and there is 1 other, makes sense in this context.  Sorry about not pulling quotes, I'm on my tablet and Don't know how on this thing.

But other than Bran in the South greendreaming North,and even as the most powerful greenseer possibly having to pull back, where else do we see anyone Warging, skinchanging, even greendreaming from South to North past the Wall as barrier?  I can't think of anything but my memory is a sieve.

I do want to add I think the Others have been around a long time as you do and something triggered them.  A Long Night coming, of course, is the main contender, but also the demise of the dragons is very possible.  I wonder sometimes about that 600 year old Hardhome attack that seemed like it was dragons, and of course Targs arriving in Westeros 400 years ago.  If there was a pact that Valyrians stay out of Westeros, it's already been broken, and the Others are just waiting for a long enough winter to take their revenge, or They're impossibly slow-moving in their plans, like glaciers lol!

[lrresistable]

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Thinking more about this, I suspect flying over the Wall isn't deadly to creatures made of magic, nor is going under it. But it is a physical barrier. So my take at present is not that the Wall itself scared Silverwing, but the fact that -- as a creature of magic -- it sensed the fact that an inimical magic permeates the lands beyond the Wall, a magic that is held back by the Wall. South of the Wall, Silverwing sensed nothing... but as soon as it was above it, and Alysanne tried to push the dragon beyond the Wall, it sensed that magic and refused to go towards it.

agreed with this analysis

 

 plus, it doesn't make sense for it to act as a physical barrier to stop Dragons when they can just pass through the Gorge, Bay of Ice, or east of Eastwatch without much trouble.

 

10 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for Silverwing. Dragons have the intelligence of dogs. No more. 

I disavow.

[Lady Barbrey]

52 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

It's all just fascinating.  It never occurred to me that 1) the people who became Valyrians or proto Valyrians or 2) the Others would have been part of this pact.   I assumed it was just as advertised, between the 1st Men and COTF.  That opens the door to another discussion about the nature of the 1st Men and any inherent magic they brought to Westeros.  We know the Others are sentient as some animals also seem to be.  Fire wights seem to be while Ice wights do not.    I asked Freeborn Northman to clarify his statement about dragons having the intelligence of dogs because that too, is new to me.   You have named and accused proto Valyrians of being involved in the events in Westeros that led to the Pact.  I think the biggest disconnect for me is what are proto Valyrians?  I ask this because I've always assumed the folks to be the Daynes and maybe Hightowers.  We know the Daynes have a most unusual magic sword and the Hightowers at least study spells.  In that light, the Hightowers also had if not still possess, a magic sword directly from Valyria.   If I'm not completely off on what you have said, why aren't they gone?  Gatekeepers?  Hostages?  More specifically, what is their innate Valyrian magic if not dragons and hellfire?  

I think a Pact between 2 species indicates an alliance or promise between the two signators.  Now, it's no secret that I have only the most limited understanding of ice magic.   Are the COTF ice magic practitioners?   I thought they were little hippy type people, nature lovers, tree huggers.  But they are magic in more prevalent ways than I understand ice magic.  Jojen & Meera's oath to Bran led me to believe the Pact became an alliance.  Perhaps against a greater threat to both 1st Men & COTF than they were to each other.  Silly me, I took this greater threat to be the Others, but you open an entirely new line of consideration here in tossing in fire magic practitioners.   Hrm.   I reckon it really could work that way and I understand even less about fire magic than I thought I did.   

Back to the Wall that seems to ward both Ice to the north and Fire to the south magic.   Separating the power.  Poor Jon, man is he in for it if he ever gets out of his current, er, dilemma.  The Wall is powerful magic, a result of that odd alliance between the 1st Men and COTF.   Could the Wall be the culmination of the strength of whatever innate magics the earth lovers and 1st Men possessed?  It makes sense that faction might muster the strength to ward 1 power and inadvertently warding the other.   Hrm.   Ha!  Old tricksy GRRM is going to HAVE to get Dany back to Westeros so we can see what happens to her dragons!   Winter and the winds of will just have to come, won't they?     Really interesting stuff, Lady.  I think we should all go recreate and revisit some of the old stuff with new thoughts.   I wish you would do it! 

Hey CF, I'm not altogether stuck on a pact that included the Others and Valyrians, it's just where things start leading me if Silverwing couldn't cross. Thinking out loud.

In answer to your other questions, a proto-Valyrian would likely have the Daynes or proto-Daynes as an ancestral pool because of the signature looks, and all the associations to Sword of the Morning and Battle for the Dawn.  The Daynes aren't magical as far as I know, with no fire dragon magic, so the ones currently in Westeros never became Valyrians, but a branch of them way back when did, likely the Last Hero. The Children changed him, he tamed dragons, and killed off most of the Others, then voluntarily exiled himself and any of his descendents, or they were banished, leaving behind only the names and sword of this Last Hero for their Daynish cousins. 

That's the plot, it makes sense of a bunch of things, but can be taken or left as you will.  I tend to keep it as a placeholder theory pending new information.

The biggest mistake people make in the series is in regarding the CotF as hippy dippy types, in my opinion.  They spent thousands of years murdering people by altering water and landmasses and people themselves to keep people out of Westeros. Understandable but still.  When they couldn't do it, i believe they created the Others as an army, but that creation messed with magic so much it also created the first Long Night and the world was doomed.  'When they saw what they had done, they gave her father 41' always rings through my head at this point, because all they could do then was take a willing Dayne or proto-Valyrian, the Last Hero,and create a dragon riding Valyrian, which has the dual 'good' properties of defeating the Others, and this act of creation using fire magic brings an end to the Long Night because daylight returns.  But the world, and the seasons, are never the same.  The Children's technology - magic - bites them in the ass.   They've created two sets of monsters- Others and Valyrians - and they've further damaged their own gods and nature itself with the inconsistent seasons. 

So yes, Dany is needed to combat the Others, but the only real way of fixing the seasons is likely to obliterate every last descendent of both fire and ice, Valyrians and Others, and for that they might need Jon, because his blood is original stock.  

That's another placeholder theory of mine  always, always subject to change.

I think it would be fun to create a thread to talk about these things, but they tend to get hijacked into tangents, and they have already been discussed at least in part, some time ago.  I'm sure we all hold placeholder theories about the seasons and the Others/Valyrians, subject to change with new information.  I'd like to hear yours but here is not the place.  Maybe you could start a placeholders thread?  I've got lots more myself!  Planetos and Magic would be a good one, no?

[Spring Bass]

I think Silverwing (as a magical creature) just felt the presence of whatever lies in the heart of winter peering southward to the Wall, and balked in fear of that gaze. 

[Lady Barbrey]

25 minutes ago, All Souls Bass said:

I think Silverwing (as a magical creature) just felt the presence of whatever lies in the heart of winter peering southward to the Wall, and balked in fear of that gaze. 

Sauron! 

[rotting sea cow]

Not to be annoying, but about 10 pages discussing possible mechanics of magic seems to me a pointless exercise. Magic by definition is illogical and unnatural. It shouldn't be there. Magic works better when it is in the fringes and works or not for unknown reasons. 

Whilst I think it is entirely possible that the Wall disrupts the bonds between dragons and dragonriders, the way that sentence is phrased points towards something more sinister. It is not like that Silverwing started to behave wildly or tried to throw up her rider. She just refused to go there in a way that troubled Alysanne and troubled her for years. Did she also feel something?

 

 

[Lady Barbrey]

14 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

Not to be annoying, but about 10 pages discussing possible mechanics of magic seems to me a pointless exercise. Magic by definition is illogical and unnatural. It shouldn't be there. Magic works better when it is in the fringes and works or not for unknown reasons. 

Whilst I think it is entirely possible that the Wall disrupts the bonds between dragons and dragonriders, the way that sentence is phrased points towards something more sinister. It is not like that Silverwing started to behave wildly or tried to throw up her rider. She just refused to go there in a way that troubled Alysanne and troubled her for years. Did she also feel something?

 

 

Not to be annoying  (you kind of were), but your statement about magic would be disagreed with by a good 90% of the adult fantasy writers writing today.  Certainly some magic in fantasy is illogical and unnatural to the fantasy world; those authors writing that way haven't taken the time to world build, desire a different effect, or, usually, are writing for children.  Martin, I think most would agree, has done a stellar job world building for the series so it is very improbable he has neglected an internal logic to its magic system or has riddled it with inconsistencies. Moreover, he has already revealed much of its logic just with bloodlines and incest, as well as the trade-off between life (Stannis's sperm, Varys's penis, Dany's baby, blood sacrifice, and death) and Magic.  Trying to demystify the nature of the Wall in light of new information within context of old is a completely valid endeavour.  Too bad it's not really working!

 

[kissdbyfire]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I was referring to the other guys on weirwood thrones Brandon sees in the cave. These people (among them giants) who have degraded even more than Bloodraven but are still *alive* in a sense. This implies that it is part of the fun of being a greenseer to do what Bloodraven did. Become part of a weirwood tree.

Right. But then why did you bring up the greenseers who were involved in the ancient wars between the CotF and the FM?

Here's what you said:

"Did then the other living corpses who preceded Bloodraven in the illustrious position of greenseer also wait for somebody? Or isn't it actually pretty great to connect to a tree and get a much longer lifespan?

At this point we have no evidence that greenseers are, usually, mobile. If they were, the First Men should have had little chance against them. But stationary people cannot run away. Once you know some ugly sorcerer sits beneath every weirwood grove you cut the trees down and you dig the creep out and put him down."

You also seem to be claiming that there's only one greenseer at a time, and we know that's not the case. 

Then there's the quote I provided, which indicates that the greenseers were not hooked up to the weirwoods. 

Another point here is, the skulls and such Bran sees in the CotF cave are neatly placed in niches carved out of the stone. Sure, there are roots running through them and around them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were physically attached to the trees in the past. Remains to be seen imo. We will have to agree to disagree, as usual.

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In that capacity Bran can also rule the world and become a god. But the broken boy would not survive a day outside the cave. Not in winter, and not while the Others are still a thing.

Nor is there any narrative reason whatsoever to drag him into this forsaken place at the end of the world if he can become immensely powerful just by telepathy. Why on earth was 'the wizard' not beneath Winterfell? Or somewhere in the North?

Greenseers are not *people*. Or rather - they are not just one person. They can be dozens or even hundreds of animals, and presumably also a couple of people if they fry their minds. Just as Bran has Hodor now, his greenseer predecessors among the Children may have had their own puppet people walk around and talk. 

Brandon Stark no longer needs his weak and crippled body. He can take others.

I suspect the whole skinchanging into people will play out differently and serve a different purpose. We will have to wait and see.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I love the idea the territory or whoever's in charge is shouting out no trespassing!

I do think that the basic principle of skinchanging is behind all three - Skinchangers, Dragon riders and Others - but they are variations depending on what is skinchanged.  Wights are dead, and as Varamyr explained, they still retain something of will and intelligence - but not much.   They need a little ice for preservation. but don't put up much of a fight, that's why scores can be controlled at a time.  Living animals can be controlled while still retaining their natural intelligence, but there's symbiosis between the animal's strength of will and the skinchanger's that determines which and how many can be skinchanged.  Dragons, as Martin once explained, could possibly be skinchanged  but are so full of fierce will power it would be incredibly difficult if not impossible.  So that's why I think Valyrians were imbued with dragonfire magic when they, the Valyrians, were created to kill off the Others.  That way the dragons recognize them as kin, of the same nature, so they can more easily be bonded and thus controlled, particularly if raised from an egg.  It's not the easier skinchanging we've seen, and dragons don't submit easily even then to the bond, sometimes requiring horns, etc. But at core it's the same magic that created all of them, just differing with the will of the creatures being bonded and the elements that go into the mix.

Whatever we know about the bond between dragon and rider doesn't indicate this thing has anything to do with the skinchanging thing. Dragonriders don't dream about their dragons, they don't see through their eyes, they do become them, nor can they ride more than one dragon at a time.

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Lord Varys, though it's clear the Others are sentient--sneaky SOBs without a doubt--your statements about the Others plotting and planning are odd to me. We've had tons of discussion regarding the why of now that the Others are making themselves known.   Dragons have been gone a very long time.   Hell, the Others have been "gone" a very long time.  (Here's some tin foil for the fire--Silverwing's presence "sparked" the Others to wake or recombine or pay attention!)  I'm interpreting an omniscience or omnipresence with the Others that's hard to get my head around.  

If the Others have a higher consciousness the 2nd bolded statement makes a lot of sense.    I think I just need to understand the 1st a little better.   

The Others have a language, they use weapons, they wear weirdo armor, and they do make sneaky long term plans like putting wights and certain places to draw the NW out and then really take their time before they attack them in strength.

And we know that 'the cold preserves'. If 'the North remembers' then the Others do remember everything that happened in the last 8,000 years (and even before).

But I'm not necessarily saying that the Others are the people directing the Others. There is the Heart of Winter. This seems to be a place deep within the Land of Always Winter which contains some sort of intelligence or presence.

I mean, if it were true that the Children of the Forest did create the Others, then whatever Child/group of Children who did that might be still around. A corrupt greenseer frozen in the ice beneath a frozen weirwood (grove), perhaps. The rage over the holocaust the First Men committed in Westeros forever preserved by eternal ice. That would both work as a great symbol as well as fit with the whole ice-and-fire magic thing.

And it also opens the door for a resolution of the conflict. Perhaps the heart of this creature can be melted if the right person gets through to him or her? Not to mention that dragonfire might be able to literally melt/burn that place, destroying the magic that directs/preserves the Others.

The idea the Others and wights could be defeated as an army sounds pretty much impossible to me. There has to be another way to finally end the conflict. This is a 'realistic fantasy series' - one Other getting away should be enough to start the cycle all over again. There has to be a way to end this once and for all.

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Just adding to my last response to this same post, Lord Varys, because synthesizing your post to 'No trespassing' and the Heart of Winter reminded me of Bran's traumatizing experience, while in the South, when he dreamed of flying past the Wall to the Heart of Winter and was confronted with that 'curtain', and whatever he glimpsed beyond it terrified him to tears.  No trespassing indeed.

Yeah, that whole scene is the best hint we have that the Others (or whatever is behind them) were always there. The Heart of Winter is what's responsible for the magical freak winter of this world, and it was there since before the Long Night (since it was almost certainly responsible for the Long Night and the first attack of the Others).

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

And perhaps that's what Ran is indicating when he says the Wall keeps out the magic of the whole Far North, emanating from the Heart of Winter, and that's what Silverwing sensed.

Since there are no wights south of the Wall and no Others it clearly keeps a lot out of the southern lands - but not everything. Winter comes through, and it seems to be almost/exactly as bad at the southern side of the Wall than it is north of the Wall. Although we don't know that for certain.

If the Wall was really a super-efficient magical barrier then one could ask why the lands south of the Wall are not 'summer land' whereas the lands north of it are 'winter land'.

Whatever is done in the Heart of Winter to create lasting and ugly winters it affects the entire world. Could be that the Wall dampens the effect somewhat, but we don't know that at this point.

It would be really great to compare the effects of winter given in all FaB volumes to each other when they are completed. In the first one we'll get only 'dragon winters', but in the days from Aegon III to Aerys II we would also get 'dragonless winters', and those supposedly were longer and crueler than those with dragons.

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I do want to add I think the Others have been around a long time as you do and something triggered them.  A Long Night coming, of course, is the main contender, but also the demise of the dragons is very possible.  I wonder sometimes about that 600 year old Hardhome attack that seemed like it was dragons, and of course Targs arriving in Westeros 400 years ago.  If there was a pact that Valyrians stay out of Westeros, it's already been broken, and the Others are just waiting for a long enough winter to take their revenge, or They're impossibly slow-moving in their plans, like glaciers lol!

I don't think they or the Heart of Winter had to be triggered. I think they were there all the time but were biding their time because of the dragons. The time was not yet right. They might fail, or they might not even be able to cause another Long Night. Even if it had been possible, if the Westerosi had called upon the dragonlords of Valyria to help them the Others would have melted away like summer snow. Not just because of the dragons but also because of the powerful Valyrian sorcerers who were masters of fire magic.

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Right. But then why did you bring up the greenseers who were involved in the ancient wars between the CotF and the FM?

Here's what you said:

"Did then the other living corpses who preceded Bloodraven in the illustrious position of greenseer also wait for somebody? Or isn't it actually pretty great to connect to a tree and get a much longer lifespan?

At this point we have no evidence that greenseers are, usually, mobile. If they were, the First Men should have had little chance against them. But stationary people cannot run away. Once you know some ugly sorcerer sits beneath every weirwood grove you cut the trees down and you dig the creep out and put him down."

You also seem to be claiming that there's only one greenseer at a time, and we know that's not the case.

I suspect the whole skinchanging into people will play out differently and serve a different purpose. We will have to wait and see.

Because I think the idea that they could not physically move their primary bodies serves as a good explanation why the Children lost. If the greenseers were mobile the First Men would have been slaughtered. It also helps to explain why the groves had to go. It is where the greenseers were. The trees as such are irrelevant, the problem are the people connected to them.

Back in ancient days there were many greenseers. The implication in ADwD is that the Children only have one now.

Skinchanging into people already serves the purpose I laid out. Brandon Stark uses Hodor to fulfill his desire of walking around and be close to Meera. Also as pawn to protect his own primary body.

You also have to keep in mind that those tales of the greenseers of the Children are twisted stories told by the First Men a long time ago. They may have been under the impression that (some) greenseers could walk around. But that doesn't make it so.

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Another point here is, the skulls and such Bran sees in the CotF cave are neatly placed in niches carved out of the stone. Sure, there are roots running through them and around them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were physically attached to the trees in the past. Remains to be seen imo. We will have to agree to disagree, as usual.

That seems to be you just not wanting to really consider what this hints at. Those people are, in part, still alive. What else could they be but greenseers? And what reason to you have to believe Bloodraven is the only greenseer living the way he does? Considering how rare greenseers are, there is no reason to believe that Bloodraven is special in waiting for a successor.

[zionius]

On 9/30/2018 at 4:30 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Surprised that this tree seems to have quite a number of additional compared to the family tree that was released in July. Neither Androw nor Laena (II) were on there.

Which makes me wonder if there are any other additions?

That's all the major changes.

They also fixed 3 tiny errors we've found in the July version.

Aegon IV and Aemon the Dragonknight are included in the new version, while their sister Naerys isn't. They were born in 135, 136, 138 AC, respectively. So it confirms the family tree represents the status by 136 AC, which in turn might imply Rhaena married Garmund Hightower after 136 AC.

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, zionius said:

So it confirms the family tree represents the status by 136 AC, which in turn might imply Rhaena married Garmund Hightower after 136 AC.

That one is interesting insofar as it indicates that the Rhaena/Garmund match wasn’t something the regents council cooked up.

[Lord Varys]

The family tree reads 'Targaryen Lineage from Aegon's Conquest to the Ascension of Aegon III'.

That implies it covers all marriages and births up until the end of 136 AC, considering that Aegon III was born late in 120 AC, meaning his sixteenth nameday was also late in 136 AC.

The Garmund-Rhaena match could still have been arranged by the regents, though. It would depend on Garmund's age whether a marriage was possible up until 136 AC. That Baela and Rhaena married rather early is most likely due to dynastic pressure, but with Prince Viserys returning and Alyn and Baela producing one child already, the pressure shouldn't be that hard on Rhaena after the death of Ser Corwyn Corbray.

But a betrothal could still have been arranged before the end of the king's minority.

I'd prefer it if this unlikely marriage turned out to be love match.

[Lady Barbrey]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Whatever we know about the bond between dragon and rider doesn't indicate this thing has anything to do with the skinchanging thing. Dragonriders don't dream about their dragons, they don't see through their eyes, they do become them, nor can they ride more than one dragon at a time.

I Don't think the above is necessarily true, but of course we only have one extant dragon rider in the series.  Still, she does have dragon dreams, she can sense her dragons and vice versa.  If they can't be completely skinchanged, imo, it's because they're too strong-willed for the bond to work in the normal way. I've also wondered about berserking in this regard, in a reverse skin changing sense, because it does seem at times that dragons (or Dragon Soul??) possess Targaryans even when no dragons are living

The Others have a language, they use weapons, they wear weirdo armor, and they do make sneaky long term plans like putting wights and certain places to draw the NW out and then really take their time before they attack them in strength.

I agree with this - I believe they are just as intelligent as men and are planning their attack.  Those wights seemed like some kind of experiment to me.  They're testing the ground and their foes.

But I'm not necessarily saying that the Others are the people directing the Others. There is the Heart of Winter. This seems to be a place deep within the Land of Always Winter which contains some sort of intelligence or presence.

Maybe.  I Don't imagine a Great Other, but I do think an ice-seer as counterpart to Bloodraven's greenseer, someone almost god-like in power, particularly when close to its Heart of Winter source, just as Bloodraven is connected to a Heart tree, is an acceptable guess.

I mean, if it were true that the Children of the Forest did create the Others, then whatever Child/group of Children who did that might be still around. A corrupt greenseer frozen in the ice beneath a frozen weirwood (grove), perhaps. The rage over the holocaust the First Men committed in Westeros forever preserved by eternal ice. That would both work as a great symbol as well as fit with the whole ice-and-fire magic thing.

Cool image.

And it also opens the door for a resolution of the conflict. Perhaps the heart of this creature can be melted if the right person gets through to him or her? Not to mention that dragonfire might be able to literally melt/burn that place, destroying the magic that directs/preserves the Others.

Yes, how does it resolve?  The situation does seem to call for vanquishing one main target rather than armies resolving it.

The idea the Others and wights could be defeated as an army sounds pretty much impossible to me. There has to be another way to finally end the conflict. This is a 'realistic fantasy series' - one Other getting away should be enough to start the cycle all over again. There has to be a way to end this once and for all.

Yeah, that whole scene is the best hint we have that the Others (or whatever is behind them) were always there. The Heart of Winter is what's responsible for the magical freak winter of this world, and it was there since before the Long Night (since it was almost certainly responsible for the Long Night and the first attack of the Others).

My pet theory is that when the Children created the Others they tapped into the magic at the Heart of Winter to do it, unbalancing the magic that keeps the planet revolving, another force of physics in Planetos like gravity is in ours, and thus the Others do not bring the Long Night, but their creation did bring the first one. (Thus why the first Long Night and the arrival of the Others seems contemporaneous in Westeros, but no Others, just the Long Night, in Essos).  To 'fix' it, they turned to the Heart of Summer to create the Valyrians, so daylight came back but it wasn't a true fix - all wobbly.  I like the balance in this.  But it also plays into my suspicion that when George was taxed with likely scientific explanations for the inconstant seasons, and he replied with it's magic, he didn't mean it's nonsense, he meant that magic was a force of physics for Planetos and disrupting it, not gravity or the moon, etc., was the problem.  And somewhere in the World Book someone says it was 'magical arts ' that caused the problem.

Since there are no wights south of the Wall and no Others it clearly keeps a lot out of the southern lands - but not everything. Winter comes through, and it seems to be almost/exactly as bad at the southern side of the Wall than it is north of the Wall. Although we don't know that for certain.

If the Wall was really a super-efficient magical barrier then one could ask why the lands south of the Wall are not 'summer land' whereas the lands north of it are 'winter land'.

I asked the same question, but I'm not dwelling cause I see no areas for speculation about it yet.

Whatever is done in the Heart of Winter to create lasting and ugly winters it affects the entire world. Could be that the Wall dampens the effect somewhat, but we don't know that at this point.

It would be really great to compare the effects of winter given in all FaB volumes to each other when they are completed. In the first one we'll get only 'dragon winters', but in the days from Aegon III to Aerys II we would also get 'dragonless winters', and those supposedly were longer and crueler than those with dragons.

I vote you do it, or someone else as well-versed in the minutiae of the series.

I don't think they or the Heart of Winter had to be triggered. I think they were there all the time but were biding their time because of the dragons. The time was not yet right. They might fail, or they might not even be able to cause another Long Night. Even if it had been possible, if the Westerosi had called upon the dragonlords of Valyria to help them the Others would have melted away like summer snow. Not just because of the dragons but also because of the powerful Valyrian sorcerers who were masters of fire magic.

As stated, a valid theory, but there are a few others also valid.  None of them to me seem a perfect fit instinctually so I haven't kept any as placeholders.  I am really really hoping that the next book gives us much more and better info on the Others.

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 9/30/2018 at 11:53 AM, Curled Finger said:

Sandman, you know I really enjoy your imagination and ideas.   I don't have to agree with even 1 of them to be glad I took the time to read your stuff.  I don't know you and you don't know me, which is fair enough.   I imagine you are the complete opposite of me and I like that.   That said, I've got my search for Alysanne up behind this post and offer you this from the perspective of a completely different type of person.  Stay with me, Brother.   

Remember when Cat was telling Robb about following his heart in marrying Jeyne instead of manning up to a critical vow he made to a strong ally?   She told him how she and Ned grew to love each other--it wasn't star crossed or wild--it was work and compromise and more work to get there.   Much as I am not a Cat fan, I will not take that declaration of love from her.   True, we are not privy to the mad passion that may have existed between Jaehaerys and his sister.   But we do know that they were activists and good rulers.   We know they understood their duty as rulers of Westeros to the point Alysanne is remembered in history books as Jaehaery's greatest love.   Emphasis on greatest.   Where some might go aha, that alley cat slept around...I think he just loved many things and ideas and people without having to get naked with any of them.   Same for Alysanne.   We know she was very upset at their daughter being passed over for inheritance--the throne, in favor of their son.   I can't believe for a moment that either parent loved either child more than the other.   This was a decision that would have far reaching ramifications for a new realm perpetuating the unfairness against women.   Who knows?   Perhaps it was a 1st born thing over being a daughter?  All I know is that this decision had all the ingredients for a very unhappy personal and professional life.  

I think it's cheap and detracting from the wonderful deeds of the good Queen Alysanne to bring any blight upon her honor related to Jaehaerys--the only love we know she had.  How do I figure J +A is a wonderful love story?   In their struggles to build a better world for everyone, my friend.   In their happy and fruitful marriage.   In their huge family they were so proud of.   In their amazing work together, personally and professionally.   I'm totally good with a couple of nice characters in this story particularly.   That said I'm not taking anything from you Man.   This idea of yours could be a lot of fun if I wasn't just really happy to have this glimpse of a couple who worked very hard and mostly very successfully together.   When the smoke clears, what is love beyond that right there? 

I do enjoy discussing with you alot too and most people i dont agree with on something hahah I think we're all like that. 

And i do see your take, and to your credit, nothing is proven yet

Though for all we know, Valyrian custom is more akin to Dornish as far as paramours and the such. The practice of first night and dragon seeds seems evidence to me that the Valyrians feel loosely about sex. Unless the Valyrian lord's wives would leave them every time.

Apologies for the short response, works got me busy and my heads still puzzling over what Elio said and the snippet GRRM dropped hahah

 

Sneaking things past the magic of the wall-    Makes me think about Melisandre and Stannis birthing shadow demons under Storm's End. They're mating reminds me of the Night's King giving his seed and soul to his Corpse Bride. They also remind me of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa birthing light bringer (The sword was a metaphor Brandon would admire). After that, my head melts hahah

[The Grey Wolf]

It's interesting that Aerea and Rhaelle are not listed as being married or having children. While Rhaelle might indeed have become a septa like Maegor intended Aerea dying unwed and/or childless is a worrisome possibility.

[hiemal]

The "Council of Women" fascinates me as well. I wonder did this fall out of fashion at some point or just change into something less formal or even possibly merge with/morph into something else entirely like the Silent Sisters/hypothetical Shadow Citadel? To what did extant did the Targ conquest influence Westerosi gender relations?

[Lord Varys]

@Lady Barbrey

Dany dreams of Drogon before she hatches the eggs. But she has no dreams about him or the other dragons after they hatched. Nor does she know or feel where Drogon is after he flies away. There is a bond there, but it is not the same bond skinchangers have. It is much more intuitive and, in a sense, more exclusive, considering that you only 'marry' one dragon at a time. As a dragonrider you also don't have the same amount of control over your dragon a skinchanger has.

It doesn't have to be just one directing force up in the Heart of Winter. It could be a group. The idea that the whole thing is just a spell run amok with the Others just executing a 'magical programming' that was inserted in the first creature and multiplies now, like a virus, is not convincing to me because of the careful planning and the subtlety of the Others. If they were driving by their programming to eradicate mankind one would assume that this urge would be too strong for them to be as calculating as they are.

I don't think this 'Heart of Winter' thing is something that always existed. Yes, this is 'the World of Ice and Fire', but the freak seasons are not natural. They started with the Long Night; the fact that there are long summers in addition to the Others-created long winters might be because this is indeed 'a world of Fire' in the magical sense, not just 'a world of Ice', represented by dragons, the Fourteen Flames, powerful fire magic, etc., and that Fire provided a sort of 'magical counterpoint' to the annihilating ice magic of the Others - at least while Valyria and the dragons were still around.

Afterwards the scales might favor ice again, allowing the Others to finish their grand design this time.

There are hints that fire magic can be very destructive, too - not just with the Doom but also with what happened in the Patrimony of Hyrkoon - but we don't have any fire demons out there plotting the end of mankind through fire.

If the Heart of Winter is dealt with seasons are likely going to turn back to normal. There is more to that than just the Others. A winter that never ends is on the table. But nobody ever tried to create a summer that never ends through fire magic.

9 minutes ago, hiemal said:

The "Council of Women" fascinates me as well. I wonder did this fall out of fashion at some point or just change into something less formal or even possibly merge with/morph into something else entirely like the Silent Sisters/hypothetical Shadow Citadel? To what did extant did the Targ conquest influence Westerosi gender relations?

The term used is 'women's court', not 'council', and that paragraph implies that this is a royal court/audience conducted by the queen which only women attended. It could be Alysanne's own design to create such an institution (it is obvious that this might be how Alysanne learned about the problems of the First Night), but it could just as well go back to Queen Rhaenys (although not to Visenya - I don't think she cared about or liked to hang out with women).

Why this is no longer a thing in later years as far as we know also seems to be rather obvious - if the queens don't give a shit, they don't do it. And if they are just breed mares at the side of the king there would also be no point. Many of the later queens played little or no part in the governance of the Realm.

Aemma Arryn is a very shadowy figure, and Alicent Hightower seemed to have better things to do, anyway. Daenaera Velaryon we don't really know as of yet, and Queen Naerys was too much under the thumb of her brother-husband (and too much concerned with her piety, etc. anyway). But some of the stronger queens of later years - Mariah Martell, perhaps, or Betha Blackwood - may have revived this thing. Some of Egg's reforms could also be based on stuff Betha learned in such courts.

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

 

It doesn't have to be just one directing force up in the Heart of Winter. It could be a group. The idea that the whole thing is just a spell run amok with the Others just executing a 'magical programming' that was inserted in the first creature and multiplies now, like a virus, is not convincing to me because of the careful planning and the subtlety of the Others. If they were driving by their programming to eradicate mankind one would assume that this urge would be too strong for them to be as calculating as they are.

Yes I agree could be a group, I was using Bloodraven as an example.  Never intended to give the impression of a virus or programming. I am also not convinced the agenda is death to humans, at least not directly.  I imagine it's the same as everyone else: conquest, rule, and on a biological imperative level, breed.

I don't think this 'Heart of Winter' thing is something that always existed. Yes, this is 'the World of Ice and Fire', but the freak seasons are not natural. They started with the Long Night; the fact that there are long summers in addition to the Others-created long winters might be because this is indeed 'a world of Fire' in the magical sense, not just 'a world of Ice', represented by dragons, the Fourteen Flames, powerful fire magic, etc., and that Fire provided a sort of 'magical counterpoint' to the annihilating ice magic of the Others - at least while Valyria and the dragons were still around.

Yes, we seem to agree here in substance if not in detail, though when I say the Heart of Winter, I mean (I think) a concentration of elemental ice magic.

Afterwards the scales might favor ice again, allowing the Others to finish their grand design this time.

There are hints that fire magic can be very destructive, too - not just with the Doom but also with what happened in the Patrimony of Hyrkoon - but we don't have any fire demons out there plotting the end of mankind through fire.

Perhaps we differ here.  I imagine if Bran had ever glimpsed the 14 Flames in their heyday, with sweating starving slaves and the atrocities we've been led to expect were there, he would have turned away with the same reaction he gave to the Heart of Winter.  If left unchecked, the Valyrians could very well have destroyed everyone but themselves in the long run.  Not with that intention (but we Don't know the Other's intentions either) but certainly that conclusion has to be a possibility.  The Heart of Summer might have been here, in fact, and overuse of fire and blood magic led to its own implosion...except a few escaped carrying its  rebirth with them in the gene pool.

If the Heart of Winter is dealt with seasons are likely going to turn back to normal. There is more to that than just the Others. A winter that never ends is on the table. But nobody ever tried to create a summer that never ends through fire magic.

No one, in my theory, tried to create a winter that never ends either.  Magical fall-out.  And I don't think the Heart of Winter is solely a place - it's carried as well in the bloodline of the Others, so can be renewed if the place itself is destroyed.  They're connected.  It's a Heart. This might be the gist of the Nights King story - renewal/rebirth after destruction. Just as seems to have happened with the Heart of Summer in Valyria, but rebirth of Dragon riders through Dany because the entire bloodline was never destroyed.  Right now, Dany is the Heart of Summer

So I do think both Hearts of Winter and  Summer must be destroyed, or at least returned to their original state, but not only them (whatever they might be), but their associated bloodlines if the seasons are to return.  That's not many in terms of Valyrians so it's good timing in that respect.  

I'll leave this line of inquiry for now as I've been off topic - thank you for the discussion!

 

 

 

[DMC]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany dreams of Drogon before she hatches the eggs. But she has no dreams about him or the other dragons after they hatched.

Well, this is just wrong.  I think it's more than fair to say Dany has the most vivid dragon dreams of anyone in the text (which, well, shouldn't be surprising) - and at least one of which was after the "other dragons" have hatched.  See here.

Anyway, didn't want to get in the weeds here, I've really enjoyed the discussion in this thread.  Wanted to comment because I keep going back to two things when thinking about it:  Mel's "one of the hinges" statement about the Wall (which I'll table for another thread), and Jojen and Meera's oath:

Quote

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

That's always been really interesting to me - especially since the World Book came out.  Ice and fire we know.  Earth and water, said the boy in green.  This is how I think of the Children.  As earth gods.  What better way to describe them?  Or their magic?  What'd we see in the World Book?  The Rhoyner combating the Valyrians with some type of water magic.  So, really, we have four magics here in the oath:  earth, water, ice, and fire.  Not exactly the four elements, but I guess water could be wind -- or more preferably in my book ICE.  Anyway, Captain Planet isn't far behind.  Or, as I'd prefer, Milla Jovovich.

So then there's the middle line of the oath.  Bronze can be attributed to the First Men pretty safely, I think.  Are the Andals iron?  That's what they brought to Westeros, right?  Thus, you basically got Jojen and Meera swearing by, in order, the Children, the Rhoynar, the First Men, the Andals -- and then both the Others and Valyrians.  I don't know WTF that means exactly, but thought it was worth sharing.

Anywho, I loved this FoB preview.  Awesome all up until the reveal, which he knew would have everyone talking.  One look at what I think is the most important line:

Quote

Though it was summer and the Wall was weeping, the chill of the ice could still be felt whenever the wind blew, and every gust would make the dragon hiss and snap.

So, Silverwing didn't like the wall because of the wind.  I really don't care where the wind was coming from logistically, btw, so spare me.  Also, I think it's notable the Wall was weeping because it was summer.  Why is the Wall always emphasized as weeping when the sun is on it?  Seems it's always mentioned that way right?  As if it rejects any form of fire?  So, those are my weird thoughts on it.