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FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT


Moondancer

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1)

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Manderly also staged a small tourney in the queen’s honor, to show the prowess of his knights. One of the fighters (though no knight) was revealed to be a woman, a wildling girl who had been captured by rangers north of the Wall and given to one of Lord Manderly’s household knights to foster. Delighted by the girl’s daring, Alysanne summoned her own sworn shield, Jonquil Darke, and the wildling and the Scarlet Shadow dueled spear against sword whilst the northmen roared in approval.

This could allude to Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Rhaegar's reaction upon finding it out.

2) The meeting between Alaric and Alysanne gave me slight vibes of how a future meeting between Jon and Daenerys might go: cold and standoffish at first, but then warming as they get to know each other better. Some key quotes:

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"a hard man, people said, stern and unforgiving [...] humorless, joyless, cold." I could see much of this applying to Jon post-resurrection.

"This is the North, and winter is coming. We cannot feed a thousand men for long." Jon will be worried about that too.

"Alysanne Targaryen did not yield easily, however. [...] Even a lord as stern and flinty as Alaric Stark found himself helpless before Queen Alysanne’s stubborn charm."

"The longer the queen stayed, the more Lord Alaric warmed to her, and in time Alysanne came to realize that not everything that was said of him was true."

"Once the initial frost had thawed [...]"

"He even deigned to approach Silverwing, though warily."

3) While I don't doubt that dragons would be able to physically enter Winterfell just as they can at Storm's End, I did notice a bit of a similarity between Alaric "declar[ing] that he did not want her dragon inside his walls" and then Silverwing later being unable or unwilling to fly over the Wall. Is a meaningful parallel between Winterfell and the Wall being made here? Spitballing ideas off the top of my head, some of which have been touched on in this thread:

I. It's just to emphasize they are both special/magical barriers in some sense (even if one can't actually stop dragons).

II. Someone involved in the building of the Wall also declared that they didn't want dragons to be able to pass. Or some entity beyond the Wall, "the Great Other" or what-have-you, magically conveyed that intention to Silverwing.

III. Winterfell is actually encircled by two walls, separated by a moat. Perhaps there is a second Wall beyond the first. (A little far-fetched, I know.)

IV. There is a weirwood heart tree within Winterfell's walls. There could be a massive weirwood (or grove of them) far beyond the Wall at the Heart of Winter. Some possible wordplay and foreshadowing:

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When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods. (Jon XII, ASOS)

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They were in the heart of Winterfell with the castle all around them, but no sign of it could be seen. They might have easily been lost amidst the Land of Always Winter, a thousand leagues beyond the Wall. (Theon I, ADWD)

(Those are the only two times "heart of Winterfell" appears in the text. And "heart of winter" only appears once, in reference to what Bran sees far beyond the Wall.)

4) Regarding the theory that it was actually the icy Others who built the massive ice Wall which fiery dragons apparently can't cross, this comment from GRRM has always stuck in my mind:

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Shaw: Do you know what substance an Other sword is made from. 

Martin: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it

-Interview with the Dragon

 

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10 minutes ago, DanaKz said:

Sorry, guys, do we know what was First Quarrel about? Second quallrel was about Rhaenys, but do know anything about first yet?

No, we don't.

1 hour ago, Shmedricko said:

1)

This could allude to Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Rhaegar's reaction upon finding it out.

In part, but keep in mind Alysanne is a woman, too. She certainly would have a different view on fighting women than the average man.

1 hour ago, Shmedricko said:

2) The meeting between Alaric and Alysanne gave me slight vibes of how a future meeting between Jon and Daenerys might go: cold and standoffish at first, but then warming as they get to know each other better. Some key quotes.

Could be, although I'm expecting Jon to thaw much faster and them having not as much private time. Alysanne obviously went to Winterfell to charm Lord Alaric - and succeeded at that - whereas Dany does not likely have all that much reason to charm Jon. In fact, considering the likely political situation at the time Dany arrives we'll have Jon having a lot of reasons to charm Dany whereas the North cannot really offer Dany all that much (assuming Jon has anything to do with the North at the time).

1 hour ago, Shmedricko said:

3) While I don't doubt that dragons would be able to physically enter Winterfell just as they can at Storm's End, I did notice a bit of a similarity between Alaric "declar[ing] that he did not want her dragon inside his walls" and then Silverwing later being unable or unwilling to fly over the Wall. Is a meaningful parallel between Winterfell and the Wall being made here? Spitballing ideas off the top of my head, some of which have been touched on in this thread.

Overall the crucial thing with the Wall should be that it is the Wall. It supposedly stops the Others (when one doesn't ascribe to conspiracy theories) and their magic, and that's why I think what Silverwing feels up there is not the powerful magic of the Wall (if the powerful magic in the walls of Storm's End cannot stop dragons flying over them then the powerful magic in the Wall should also not stop dragons flying over it).

But dragons are fire made flesh and the Others could very be actually the opposite - their magic, and the magic of the Heart of Winter should be anathema to the dragons.

If you think about what a dragonrider expedition into the Land of Always Winter could have meant for the powers dwelling up there it is pretty clear that they must have been pretty alarmed should they have felt/learned/seen that there was a dragon at the Wall. That could be seen as a declaration of war.

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1 hour ago, Shmedricko said:

3) While I don't doubt that dragons would be able to physically enter Winterfell just as they can at Storm's End, I did notice a bit of a similarity between Alaric "declar[ing] that he did not want her dragon inside his walls" and then Silverwing later being unable or unwilling to fly over the Wall. Is a meaningful parallel between Winterfell and the Wall being made here? Spitballing ideas off the top of my head, some of which have been touched on in this thread:

No, I think it's just Alaric stannising around. Silverwing was a big, formidable beast, a dragon. He didn't want her anywhere near Winterfell. I don't think there's magic there, just a wary lord. Jacaerys Velaryon's Vermax had no trouble entering Winterfell.

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28 minutes ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

No, I think it's just Alaric stannising around. Silverwing was a big, formidable beast, a dragon. He didn't want her anywhere near Winterfell. I don't think there's magic there, just a wary lord. Jacaerys Velaryon's Vermax had no trouble entering Winterfell.

It is both an attempt to show strength - this is my castle and you don't bring animals in there which I don't like - and an inadvertent display of fear. Alaric is afraid of Silverwing/dragons. Not heeding the dragon at all and immediately approaching it as if it was just any other pet would have been a sign that he really kept his cool and was not intimidated/afraid.

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The relations between House Targaryen and the Maesters, Septons, and Old Town i find greatly interesting. 

Its noted he had many Maesters helping him with his many matters. Then creating the Grand Maester position. This is quite a lot of influence the Citadel is apparently giving the Targaryen's in the take over of Westeros. As i imagine those same Maesters could have easily poisoned off the family long ago. 

It's even more interesting that it all fell apart so fast by Aenys and Maegor. At least with the Faith.

 

Quite the accusation though on Visenya killing her (sister?) and brother. Or just brother. Not sure how to read that

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16 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Quite the accusation though on Visenya killing her (sister?) and brother. Or just brother. Not sure how to read that

I thought it referred to the rumor that Visenya poisoned Aenys. Rhaenys died in Dorne, Aegon died of stroke, it would be foolish for anyone to suggest that she killed either of them.

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1 minute ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

I thought it referred to the rumor that Visenya poisoned Aenys. Rhaenys died in Dorne, Aegon died of stroke, it would be foolish for anyone to suggest that she killed either of them.

Spoiler

 

kinslayer and a kingslayer

cruel irony if true, no one did more to protect the king.

 

Just bits, im not sure if im allowed to quote anything.

Aenys did pop into my head after i posted it.

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7 minutes ago, Alyssa of House Arryn said:

I also noticed the narrator pronounced Aegon as 'Ay-gon', but Rhaenys was 'REN-iss'. Is there no fixed way to pronounce the 'ae' in Valyrian names?

Well have you ever heard GRRM him self talk? lol he him self doesn't seem fixed either. I think he thinks more of it just in spelling terms than pronunciation. So depending on where you come from and your preference, you could pronounce it how ever you wanted.

Where as Tolkien had a clear idea of not just spelling but pronunciation and provided a key in the intro.

Edit- Ae is simply how he infers Valyrian roots.

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30 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:
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kinslayer and a kingslayer

cruel irony if true, no one did more to protect the king.

 

Just bits, im not sure if im allowed to quote anything.

Aenys did pop into my head after i posted it.

I would assume its about Aenys given he is both her kin first and later her King too. 

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5 minutes ago, naseridrl said:

I would assume its about Aenys given he is both her kin first and later her King too. 

Well maybe for the Kin slayer part, but i can also see it both just referring to Aegon. This section seems to be talking about Aegon specifically, not Aenys.

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9 minutes ago, naseridrl said:

I would assume its about Aenys given he is both her kin first and later her King too. 

Quote

 

Some even suggest that she might have been a kinslayer and a kingslayer, though no proof has ever been offered to support such calumnies.

It would be a cruel irony if true, for in her youth no one did more to protect the king. 

 

 

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That excerpt settles a number of issues:

1. KL grew enormously fast and prosperity ruled there since, well, the beginning. The fact that it actually grew into a small town during the Wars of Conquest before Aegon even declared that KL would be his new royal seat (and before it was clear that he would win his wars) is a strong sign how popular the Targaryens were with the commoners from the start. The fast growth in the first three decades would indicate that there was a massive rural exodus - away from the lords and into the city of the dragons - because KL offered the liberty, prosperity, and safety that was not be had under the yoke of the lords.

2. We finally have all the Hands of Aegon I - Orys Baratheon (2 BC-7 AC), Edmyn Tully (7-9 AC), Alton Celtigar - possibly the son of Crispian Celtigar, the first Master of Coin - (9-17 AC), Osmund Strong (17-34 AC), and Alyn Stokeworth (34-37 AC). I find the tidbit about Edmyn Tully especially touching, considering the man actually lives by Family, Duty, Honor. He apparently understood what that meant, unlike another lord of the same house going by the name of Hoster. Also, I'd like to applaud @Ran and @Linda for the way they sort of got the Hand thing into TWoIaF - by mentioning crucial houses supplying Hands in the early years as houses who were very influential at court (at least I assume that's why they put that in there ;-)).

3. The origin of the office of Grand Maester clarifies something of importance - the fact that the Grand Maester actually (usually) is an archmaester - or originally was a member of the Conclave. That may help put to rest certain ideas that Pycelle isn't one of the most learned maesters the Citadel has to offer (although it seems that in later years the Conclave didn't always choose one of their own members to be Grand Maester). We also learn that a house can employ more than just one maester and that the Targaryens had maesters on Dragonstone at least since the days of Lord Daemion.

4. The sentence about the Small Council implies that our idea based on TWoIaF that the Small Council was only formed by Jaehaerys I was actually false. The institution of the Small Council as such only came 'into its full bloom' during the reign of the Conciliator - which makes sense in the sense that Jaehaerys I really had the time to really allow his advisers to actually define and properly fill out their various offices and the Small Council as such to evolve. It also fits with the fact that Aegon I is the first guy to create key offices of the Small Council as well as King Aenys' later notion to call a 'Great Council' to discuss the issue of the rebels. That always implied Aenys knew what 'a Great Council' was - which only makes sense if the king's standard council was in fact already known as 'the Small Council' and people at court knew why that was. The first Great Council took place in 101 AC, but kings and court and lords knew before what 'a Great Council' would be - an assembly of as many lords of the Realm as would care to attend.

5. It is implied that in those days septons played important roles at court - both in KL and on Dragonstone (although Aegon didn't rely on them much). That's something that can, perhaps, explain the rise of Septon Murmison to the position of Hand (he may have been on Aenys' council even before he rose to that high position).

6. The story of Lord Monkeyface and his successor, the ape, seems to be the truth behind Ser Axell's fabled story about the Ape Prince (a guy I wanted to know stuff about since, well, forever, as anyone who reads my stuff can testify). The light the truth behind that story casts on our poor Axell shows how, well, foolish the man actually is. Nobody ever claimed he was a historian, but to butcher a story to this degree is really telling.

7. The tidbit about Visenya the kinslayer and kingslayer is clearly the root for TWoIaF speculation that Visenya may have killed King Aenys. @Ran once said, if I recall correctly, that he didn't know where exactly the tidbit about Visenya-Aenys came from (when we discussed TSotD and such rumors were not mentioned in there). While one could read the next paragraph in a way indicating Visenya may have killed Aegon I, that's not a given and doesn't make much sense considering that Visenya was in KL when Aegon died, not with him on Dragonstone (Maegor would be a much more likely culprit for a hypothetical murder of Aegon considering he was on Dragonstone when his father died). But a stroke is a stroke (although it is likely not impossible to cause a stroke using a spell or other magic). But in the end - plotting against/murdering Aegon's eldest son and chosen heir (and helping to kill Aegon's grandson(s)) is as much a betrayal of Aegon's cause and legacy as would be a plot to murder Aegon himself. It also fits the text we are given, and it would indeed be very tragic if Visenya actually was involved in Aenys' death - but we'll never know if she was. I don't really believe she was involved in that one right now - but it is certainly clear that TSotD gives Visenya both motive and opportunity to kill her nephew, whereas both motive and opportunity seem to be (much more) lacking in the case of Aegon I.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

2. We finally have all the Hands of Aegon I - Orys Baratheon (2 BC-7 AC), Edmyn Tully (7-9 AC), Alton Celtigar - possibly the son of Crispian Celtigar, the first Master of Coin - (9-17 AC), Osmund Strong (17-34 AC), and Alyn Stokeworth (34-37 AC). I find the tidbit about Edmyn Tully especially touching, considering the man actually lives by Family, Duty, Honor. He apparently understood what that meant, unlike another lord of the same house going by the name of Hoster. Also, I'd like to applaud @Ran and @Linda for the way they sort of got the Hand thing into TWoIaF - by mentioning crucial houses supplying Hands in the early years as houses who were very influential at court (at least I assume that's why they put that in there ;-)).

 

This means we have the names and ruling years of every Hand of the King up to the Regency...except, rather irritatingly, the two-year gap between Murmison in 41 AC and Lucas Harroway in 43 AC. 

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