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FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, Lord Alaric is a widower. And Alysanne is *very hot*. And the man melted. He even went on a hunt with her and showed her a (or his?) giant's bone. One would have to wait and see when she is getting her next child when one had the full book if you get my meaning. Perhaps all those Targaryens actually are Starks ;-).

I'd say that this scenario is the most likely way that a Targaryen bloodline got introduced into House Stark.  While we don't know Alysanne's full adventure up north yet, I wouldn't be surprised that she was apart from Jahaerys long enough to give birth to a bastard up north, that had to be left up north for obvious reasons.  And the area that seems the most invested in Alysanne is the area where the Queen's Crown tower is located.  Which might also be the area controlled by House Flint. 

And perhaps this explains part of the significance of a maternal bloodline of House Flint coming into House Stark, and continuing a maternal bloodline all the way until Lyanna Stark.

Now if you look at sigil of House Flint, Widow's Watch, you get two blue eyes looking out over the Narrow Sea.  Could these eyes be the blue eyes of Alysanne?

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13 hours ago, dhpike said:

There're two possible conditions I can think of regarding the Stark family tree:

1. Lord Ellard is the elder brother/cousin of Lord Benjen. Since Lord Alaric has two strong sons, it's possible that Ellard is the son of the first one while Benjen is the son of the second.

2. Lord Ellard is the younger son of Lord Alaric while Benjen is the son of Ellard. Suppose Ellard is only 10/11 in 58 AC, that will make him 20/21 in 68 AC and 53/54 in 101 AC, which is a perfect candidate to father Benjen.

I think there are a number of possibilities for the relation between between Lord Ellard and Lord Benjen, though some seem much less likely than others (see number 2). All birth dates are only attempts to indicate whether people were born in a different generation or the same generation, and are not a serious attempt to pin down a year. Finally, the MUSH dates for Lord Rickon and Lord Cregan could turn out to be off, but for now, I am using them for his exercise.  That said:

1. Lord Ellard was one of the two mentioned sons of Lord Alaric, and Lord Benjen was his son:

Lord Alaric b. around 28 AC
  - Lord Ellard b. around 48 AC
    - Lord Benjen b. around 68 AC
      - Lord Rickon b. 88 AC
        - Lord Cregan b. 108 AC

2. Lord Ellard was one of the two mentioned sons of Lord Alaric, while Lord Benjen was a later son born to a hypothetical later wife of Lord Alaric:

Lord Alaric b. around 28 AC
  - Lord Ellard b. around 48 AC
    - ?
  - Lord Benjen b. around 68 AC
    - Lord Rickon b. 88 AC
      - Lord Cregan b. 108 AC

3. Lord Ellard and Lord Benjen were full brothers born to the same son of Lord Alaric:

Lord Alaric b. around 27 AC
  - Son b. around 47 AC
    - Lord Ellard b. around 67 AC
      - ?
    - Lord Benjen b. around 68 AC
      - Lord Rickon b. 88 AC
        - Lord Cregan b. 108 AC

4. Lord Ellard and Lord Benjen were cousins descended from the two mentioned sons of Lord Alaric:

Lord Alaric b. around 27 AC
  - Son b. around 47 AC
    - Lord Ellard b. around 67 AC
      - ?
  - Son b. around 48 AC
    - Lord Benjen b. around 68 AC
      - Lord Rickon b. 88 AC
        - Lord Cregan b. 108 AC

5. Lord Ellard was one of the two mentioned sons of Lord Alaric, while Lord Benjen was the son of the other mentioned son of Lord Alaric:

Lord Alaric b. around 27 AC
  - Lord Ellard b. around 47 AC
    - ?
  - Son b. around 48 AC
    - Lord Benjen b. around 68 AC
      - Lord Rickon b. 88 AC
        - Lord Cregan b. 108 AC

6. Lord Ellard's father and Lord Benjen were brothers, born to one of the two sons of Lord Alaric mentioned:

Lord Alaric b. around 27 AC
  - Son b. around 47 AC
    - Son b. around 67 AC
      - Lord Ellard b. around 87 AC
        - ?
    - Lord Benjen b. around 68 AC
      - Lord Rickon b. around 88 AC
        - Lord Cregan b. around 108 AC

7. Lord Ellard's father and Lord Benjen were descended from the two mentioned sons of Lord Alaric:

Lord Alaric b. around 27 AC
  - Son b. around 47 AC
    - Son b. around 67 AC
      - Lord Ellard b. around 87 AC
        - ?
  - Son b. around 48 AC
    - Lord Benjen b. around 68 AC

And any number of other possibilities, like Lord Benjen being descended from a brother or cousin of Lord Alaric after Lord Alaric's sons or grandsons died without issue or with only daughters, or Lord Benjen being descended from Lord Alaric's daughter, whether from a more distant Stark or a husband from another house, after Lord Alaric's sons or grandsons died without issue or with only daughters. Or Lord Ellard being the older brother or having the superior claim, but only having daughters, and Lord Benjen succeeding him.

Not sure any of that is likely, but there is enough of a gap in information that the blood relation between Lord Ellard and Lord Benjen could be very simple, or extremely complicated. And Lord Ellard could have been anything between a very old man and just coming into manhood at the time of the Great Council. Benjen could have been younger than him, or could have been an older relative and adviser to him, as Viserys II was to the sons of his elder brother Aegon III. A lot of possibilities.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

The Silverwing and the wall thing is the punchline to this excerpt. For why he would want that info out there my first guess would be he wants to show there will be no Dany on dragon back rescue mission on the other side of the wall in the books.

Yes for sure.  Also a good excerpt as bait for those of us not as intently interested in the Targaryens unless related to the Starks and other key families/matters in Westeros.  I read the WoIaF, Rogue Prince and Princess and the Queen, and have to say I am little interested in the internal Targaryen disputes and who did what in what year, except as they shed light on the main mysteries of the series. (I know I'm not alone, also know lots of people are very interested). This little nugget and what it implies about the Wall seems calculated to widen the audience to people like me, who might buy the book just for these types of tidbits.

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On 9/27/2018 at 1:03 PM, Lord Varys said:

I still say Lord Alaric is niggardly, but what the hell do I know ;-)?

No, this Stark lord really seems to be one of the finer guys.

I think the Silverwing thing lays down to rest this ridiculous assumption that the dragons will be 'miracle weapons' against the Others. They will be effective and all, but if the Others are living ice and the dragons living fire, then the latter won't like it all that much in the cold, especially not snowstorms, blizzards, and the like. Not to mention that their fires should be worthless and ineffective then, too.

My guess would be that the Wall keeps the Others and their magic firmly in the northern part of Westeros, explaining why Silverwing behaves the way she does in close proximity to the Wall. The Wall itself shouldn't be that much of an issue for her, considering that winters should bring snow and ice to Dragonstone and King's Landing, too.

What’s this? IIRC, you’re the one who’s argued time and again that Dany and her dragons would be the ones saving Westeros from the Others invasion, when others like myself argued that we don’t know how dragons will fare in cold weather or whether they will be that effective against the Others. Now, you have a different take on things? 

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Great read!  I'm fascinated by Silverwing refusing to fly over the Wall.  We know that the wall provides magical defense in addition to being enormous so what is it about dragons?  Wights can't cross either.  Jon lost track of Ghost when they were on opposite sides of the wall.  Does the wall block magic in general or is it targeted at Fire and Ice magic?  Maybe a dragon won't want to fly OVER the wall but can simply fly AROUND it?

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Quote

“I knew it would rain,” he said in a gloomy tone. “My bones were aching last night. They always ache before it rains. The dragons won’t like this. Fire and water don’t mix, and that’s a fact. You get a good cookfire lit, blazing away nice, then it starts to piss down rain and next thing your wood is sodden and your flames are dead.” - The Dragontamer, Dance

I've always thought that the dragons would be a red herring for defeating the Others because of this passage in Dance. The Silverwing thing seems to be more foreshadowing for it. Imagine the dragons refusing to fight in the Long Night or flying off somewhere else. Hahahaha I love it.

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could very well be. See above. It might be the Wall basically stops all magic (but greenseer stuff, who, most likely, built wrought the magic that went into the structure) because that was the only way to stop the Wall.

But if it only/mainly stops the Others (Melisandre, for instance, has no problems crossing the Wall and she is living, breathing fire magic - not exactly dragonfire-hot, but pretty hot) then it is very odd why the builders would want it to stop dragons.

Even more so if they and dragon steel and what not played a role in the War for the Dawn.

And as I said, the fact that Alysanne became a great champion of the Watch as well as her being troubled by Silverwing *not wanting to go* rather than her *not being able to go* is what gives the whole thing a sinister and interesting note.

If it was just the built-in *dragon stopper* in the Wall it would be tedious and all, but it could be circumvented and would, in the end, not that big of a deal. But if this has to do with the Others and their presence it really casts a very large shadow right from Silverwing to Drogon, Viserion, and Rhaegal and their effectiveness against the Others.

Yes, the bit about the Wall seems to add and clarify but also complicates.  My first thought was that the Wall was built to stave off not only ice magic Others but fire magic (The type specific to the Valyrians- dragon fire magic) Valyrians.  But Targaryans seem to be able to cross, it's their dragons who can't or won't, while Others can't cross but their wights can be brought across? (Liked the point you made about that above). Of course the wights can't do it on their own, so reverse might be true too, Silverwing can't cross on his own, but you could knock him unconscious and cart him over somehow lol.  Don't know, just trying to think through the ramifications.

But if the Wall was indeed erected at least in part to keep dragon-rider fire magic and dead-raising Other ice magic apart, then we can likely take it as a given they encountered each other before, and someone has taken pains they don't meet again and/or encroach on each other's territory.  Still comes back to a question of what has kept the Valyrians out of Westeros for most of their history.

Then again, Others can likely Wight the dead south of the Wall, while Valyrians would be hard pressed to find a dragon to ride North of it if they can't fly one across, so maybe the restriction on the Others wasn't needed for the Valyrians?  Or maybe Alysanne is wrong - Silverwing couldn't cross so she didn't, but maybe as a dragon-riding Targ with full measure of dragonrider blood, she couldn't either?

 I'm confused, perhaps because my belief Others as ice/people parallel Valyrians as dragonfire/people (Not dragons themselves) is faulty.  It's much less confusing if Silverwing just didn't like the ice wind and sensed danger that side of the Wall, but I find it doubtful this simple explanation is the solution or why bother with it?

Edited by Lady Barbrey

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10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Bael did exist (Has a Valyrian name)

Do you native english speakers speak Bael as "Bæl" (minding the æsc) or as "Ba-el"? I always thought it was the latter. To me, Valyrian names must have the æsc.

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ygritte wasn't wrong. She just got her vernacular wrong when saying Lord instead of King.

We can't be sure about it. Even Maester's written lore is falible, what to say about wildling oral tradition?

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Maege

Again, do you guys speak it æscly? If so wouldn't margaery be valyrian too?

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

you already think im crazy with the K.R.

Come on, that is simply not true... my opinions on you predates this debate :P

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Castle Black is no longer the seat of the Lord Commander at this point

Do we have any indication that LC seat was intended to be fix in Castle Black? My recent research on the matter made me think it would depend on which castle the new LC was serving by the time of his election.

Edited by Ckram
Removing my shitpostings

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9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Its also interesting that Tormund, Mance's good friend. Is sleeping with the daughter of Maege Mormont,

Did I miss something? Admittedly I've been out of the loop for a while but I don't remember anything about this in any of the sample chapters or readings. 

6 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

Incredible excerpt. Can’t wait FaB. Any new George is good George. The fact silverwing wouldn’t cross the wall is very interesting. It would truly change the direction of ASOIAF if Dany and her dragons can’t cross the wall. Can’t wait for the full story and winds (one can dream right?)

If he was afraid of the Others that has implications, but I think the wall will have fallen before Dany gets around to taking on the others. Maybe even before she gets to Westeros. 

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5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Really enjoyed the excerpt. Nice to get a reminder of the size of White Harbor.

Regarding Silverwing, it’s pretty obvious the spells in the Wall repelled her in some way. I see three primary possibilities.

1. The spells in the Wall break the Dragon’s bond with its rider just like it breaks the skinchanger’s bond with his animal, and the Others’ undead greenseer bond with their animated wights. This terrifies the dragon who veers away from the source of the threat.

This would also suggest that ancient greenseers could indeed disrupt the dragonbond, which explains the Valyrians avoidance of Westeros.

2. The spells in the Wall do not allow unnatural creatures to pass, and both the Others and dragons are unnatural creatures.

3. Something to do with Ice vs Fire magic, although I see this as least likely, given that the magic that underlies the Wall is not Ice magic so much as Blood magic.

I like number one.  But the Others do still seem to have that connection once the wights are brought across (or am I wrong?).  Also, it seems to me that if the Others and wights can't cross, it should be both the dragon-riding Valyrians and their dragons that can't cross.

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What a great name the Scarlet Shadow is.  Maybe bequeathed with some colours of her own by Alysanne in lieu of a white coat?  Must be something in those Darklyn/Darke genes, seem to have quite a few people on the roster to pledge themselves to protect Targs.

Edited by naseridrl

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know that, do we?

The Thenns are as far north as the wildlings live and they were moving south as of clash. So yes, we do know

Edited by Dorian Martell's son

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12 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Did I miss something? Admittedly I've been out of the loop for a while but I don't remember anything about this in any of the sample chapters or readings. 

If he was afraid of the Others that has implications, but I think the wall will have fallen before Dany gets around to taking on the others. Maybe even before she gets to Westeros. 

Yes, I agree that any battle Dany has with the Others will be south of wall so the Wall's magic has to break down.  I've always felt the Valyrians were initially created to combat the Others out-of-control, the first Valyrian being Lightbringer, and there were few dragons then and only that first Valyrian, but he or she and descendants were banished after the war because if it's one thing humans do well, it's breed, so the Children, or Valyrians themselves voluntarily left the continent in order not to overwhelm it or cause their own doom in opposition to the Children.  Don't know, of course.

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9 minutes ago, naseridrl said:

What a great name the Scarlet Shadow is.  Maybe bequeathed with some colours of her own by Alysanne in lieu of the white coat?  Must be something in those Darklyn/Darke genes, seem to have quite a few people on the roster to pledge themselves to protect Targs.

I wonder if it is significant that Melisandre is described as the "red shadow" and is dressed in "scarlet satin and blood velvet"

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43 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Do you native english speakers speak Bael as "Bæl" (minding the æsc) or as "Ba-el"? I always thought it was the latter. To me, Valyrian names must have the æsc.

The "ae" in names and words like Maester, Bael, Aegon, Rhaenys, Rhaegar, etc. is pronounced like the "AY" in BAY, not like æsc. 

See the pronunciation guides here:
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Pronunciation_guide#Guide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English

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2 hours ago, RumHam said:

Did I miss something? Admittedly I've been out of the loop for a while but I don't remember anything about this in any of the sample chapters or readings. 

If he was afraid of the Others that has implications, but I think the wall will have fallen before Dany gets around to taking on the others. Maybe even before she gets to Westeros. 

How do you think the wall comes down?

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