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FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

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3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Yes for sure.  Also a good excerpt as bait for those of us not as intently interested in the Targaryens unless related to the Starks and other key families/matters in Westeros.  I read the WoIaF, Rogue Prince and Princess and the Queen, and have to say I am little interested in the internal Targaryen disputes and who did what in what year, except as they shed light on the main mysteries of the series. (I know I'm not alone, also know lots of people are very interested). This little nugget and what it implies about the Wall seems calculated to widen the audience to people like me, who might buy the book just for these types of tidbits.

FaB isn't a book only about the Targaryens. It is a book on the reigns from Aegon I to Aegon III. They are among the main characters, but they aren't the only ones as TPatQ shows. Many guys from other houses feature rather prominently during the Dance, too. Just as they do during the Regency if the list from TWoIaF is any indication.

3 hours ago, teej6 said:

What’s this? IIRC, you’re the one who’s argued time and again that Dany and her dragons would be the ones saving Westeros from the Others invasion, when others like myself argued that we don’t know how dragons will fare in cold weather or whether they will be that effective against the Others. Now, you have a different take on things? 

I guess then you misremember. Ever since we got hints how Aegon's large dragons were effected by rain have I been pointing out that dragons fighting in a snowstorm are going to suck - not just against the Others but also against a normal army. Balerion and Meraxes were still terrible and deadly due to their very size but Dany's dragons are a joke in comparison to them.

Unless they grow exponentially they won't be of much is in direct combat. As scouts and messengers dragonriders would be great, of course, but not as weapons to destroy castles, towns, cities, or entire armies.

Depending how large the armies of wights and Others will be that are going to attack the dragons will be of some or pretty much no use.

That is, of course, separate from the question who the promised princess or the prophesied savior is. But since we have no idea what that character is going to do there is no reason to believe that any of that matters much.

The very idea that one person could actually defeat the Others is very much ridiculous. These creatures do have armies. And armies are not defeated by one guy. Even the so-called 'Last Hero' wouldn't have defeated the Others all by himself.

3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Yes, the bit about the Wall seems to add and clarify but also complicates.  My first thought was that the Wall was built to stave off not only ice magic Others but fire magic (The type specific to the Valyrians- dragon fire magic) Valyrians.  But Targaryans seem to be able to cross, it's their dragons who can't or won't, while Others can't cross but their wights can be brought across? (Liked the point you made about that above). Of course the wights can't do it on their own, so reverse might be true too, Silverwing can't cross on his own, but you could knock him unconscious and cart him over somehow lol.  Don't know, just trying to think through the ramifications.

The thing is - the wights weren't 'unconscious'. There eyes were open and blue. The magic was there. If we interpret Silverwing as being repelled by the Wall and refusing to fly beyond it then somebody dragging or carrying a wight through the Wall should see similar effects - like the wight suddenly rising and doing anything it its power to not get close to the Wall or within its power.

And if the wights were remote controlled by the Others in a skinchanger-like way then this bond would be broken by the Wall, meaning that no wight should have been able to target the leadership of the NW after they had been brought to CB.

This whole thing is somewhat of a knot.

One can see it two ways - perhaps Silverwing doesn't like the Wall because it is made of ice and cold, and perhaps she didn't cross it because she felt what lies beyond - the Others and the Heart of Winter.

Remember, what Bran saw there is truly terrible and hideous. Who is to say that dragons cannot feel that?

3 hours ago, Ckram said:

Do we have any indication that LC seat was intended to be fix in Castle Black? My recent research on the matter made me think it would depend on which castle the new LC was serving by the time of his election.

Nay, nothing supports that idea. There is no indication that the command of the Watch would have gone to the Shadow Tower or Eastwatch if either Mallister or Pyke had been chosen.

Apparently the NW decided to move command away from the Nightfort to Castle Black quite some time before the Conquest. Which is an interesting development, something I hope will be explained when informed people hang out in the Nightfort in the future. One assumes the tragedies and hideous things that took place there caused some LC to decided that he didn't want it to be his seat anymore.

But one really wonders how they could forget the Black Gate.

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The Thenns are as far north as the wildlings live and they were moving south as of clash. So yes, we do know

Oh, I'm not saying they were targeting the wildlings in great numbers back then. But this doesn't mean that they weren't always there. Waiting and watching in the shadows. And if you think about it - what do you think the Others (if we assume for a moment they were there) would have felt and done if they had realized that a dragon was at the Wall...?

I mean, we hear it in THK that the death of the last dragon caused the winters to become longer and crueler. That is not just information to be overlooked or ignored. That's part of the core conflict of the series.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

NW decided to move command away from the Nightfort to Castle Black

I was looking for a quote that support this idea upthread. Could you please provide it?

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28 minutes ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

How do you think the wall comes down?

Since Mance never found it, maybe the others have the Horn of Joramun? 

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8 minutes ago, Ckram said:

I was looking for a quote that support this idea upthread. Could you please provide it?

Well, it is just the facts. CB is the commanding castle in FaB and ASoIaF. But it seems that the Nightfort as the oldest and greatest castle - the one with the Black Gate - must have been the original commanding castle.

1 minute ago, RumHam said:

Since Mance never found it, maybe the others have the Horn of Joramun? 

Yeah, it will be blown, possibly by an Other (one that's likely going to have a lot of fun doing it), and then the giants in the earth will wake, there will be an earthquake, and the Wall will come down, crushing all the castles on the southern side.

Hopefully some of our guys won't be there when that happens. Else the game will be over.

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12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it is just the facts. CB is the commanding castle in FaB and ASoIaF. But it seems that the Nightfort as the oldest and greatest castle - the one with the Black Gate - must have been the original commanding castle.

Ok, no supporting quote then.

Edited by Ckram

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3 hours ago, Ckram said:

Do you native english speakers speak Bael as "Bæl" (minding the æsc) or as "Ba-el"? I always thought it was the latter. To me, Valyrian names must have the æsc.

We can't be sure about it. Even Maester's written lore is falible, what to say about wildling oral tradition?

Again, do you guys speak it æscly? If so wouldn't margaery be valyrian too?

Come on, that is simply not true... my opinions on you predates this debate :P

Do we have any indication that LC seat was intended to be fix in Castle Black? My recent research on the matter made me think it would depend on which castle the new LC was serving by the time of his election.

Lol 

I pronounce it like Day, with the long a sound. Just as one diphthong.

Interesting that Ygritte and Yandel list the Gendel and Gorne at 3000 years ago, apparently she's pretty good

And yes i suspect Margaery of being Valyrian through her mothers side, the Hightowers.

We dont know much about the position, that was the only thing i had on it. Castle Black is half as old as the Night Fort so i just assumed the Andals moved the position. 

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3 hours ago, RumHam said:

Did I miss something? Admittedly I've been out of the loop for a while but I don't remember anything about this in any of the sample chapters or readings.

Tormund suggest he slept with a Bear and Bears are usually metaphors for Mormonts. Like Jorah. He say's he left her with a couple of cubs.

Maege's daugher Alysane also has two cubs and no husband, and proud of it. 

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For GRRM to have bothered thinking up the dragons not being able to cross the wall rule someone in the series must attempt it. I would think probably king Aegon before the Dance, like a true king he answers the NW summons and comes to help defend his realm, only he can't cross the wall and so can't do anything in the now. So he pledges to come help them when the time comes and everything seems sweet. Then the dance happens and Dany kills Aegon and the pact is forgotten and the north/NW have a really good reason to hate Dany.

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A few observations -

1) Silverwing seemed to be having major problems with the Wall even before Alysanne tried to make her fly over and beyond it. That would seem to support the idea that it was the Wall itself, not what was beyond it, that was affecting Silverwing. (Could Silverwing actually sense what was beyond the Wall while she was on the ground, at the base of the Wall, at Castle Black?) Open to interpretation, of course.

2) Once Alysanne discovered Silverwing's reaction to the Wall, how did the Targaryens react? Their power was based on their dragons. Anything that could cause a dragon to balk could be a threat to Targaryen rule. Did they do anything about it?

3) This excerpt is likely to delay TWoW even further. Silverwing is one of the more sympathetic dragons in Targ history. An outpouring of fan support is all but inevitable, and will no doubt lead to increased workloads for GRRM as he is forced to spend time examining and vetting the production of a brand new line of ASoIaF-themed pet sweaters. Just in time for Christmas.

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1 hour ago, Ckram said:

I was looking for a quote that support this idea upthread. Could you please provide it?

TWoIaF:

“CASTLES OF THE NIGHT’S WATCH

ACTIVE

The Shadow Tower
Castle Black (now the seat of the Lord Commander of the Watch)
Eastwatch-by-the-Sea”

ASoS, Jon VII

"It can't," his uncle told him. "That is the point. The Night's Watch is pledged to take no part in the quarrels of the realm. Yet over the centuries certain Lords Commander, more proud than wise, forgot their vows and near destroyed us all with their ambitions. Lord Commander Runcel Hightower tried to bequeathe the Watch to his bastard son. Lord Commander Rodrik Flint thought to make himself King-beyond-the-Wall. Tristan Mudd, Mad Marq Rankenfell, Robin Hill . . . did you know that six hundred years ago, the commanders at Snowgate and the Nightfort went to war against each other? And when the Lord Commander tried to stop them, they joined forces to murder him? The Stark in Winterfell had to take a hand . . . and both their heads. Which he did easily, because their strongholds were not defensible. 

It's also worthy of note that the Nightfort was the NK's seat, and he was the [13th] LC. 

So, looking at these quotes, it seems safe to assume that the Nightfort was the seat of the Watch's LC back in the day. And it hasn't been for at least 600 yrs. 

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47 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

1) Silverwing seemed to be having major problems with the Wall even before Alysanne tried to make her fly over and beyond it. That would seem to support the idea that it was the Wall itself, not what was beyond it, that was affecting Silverwing. (Could Silverwing actually sense what was beyond the Wall while she was on the ground, at the base of the Wall, at Castle Black?) Open to interpretation, of course.

See above. Could be two different things - first the presence of the Wall, and that what's beyond the Wall when Alysanne tried to fly beyond.

After all, the Wall is made of ice.

But even if we were to attribute the whole thing only to the Wall (and I'm not buying that at this point) there is the chance that the magic in the Wall also points whoever can read or feel its magic (and Silverwing apparently can do that) to the Others.

I mean, if we believe the Wall was built to keep the Others then whatever magic is in there could refer or point to the Others on a magical level.

47 minutes ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

2) Once Alysanne discovered Silverwing's reaction to the Wall, how did the Targaryens react? Their power was based on their dragons. Anything that could cause a dragon to balk could be a threat to Targaryen rule. Did they do anything about it?

We don't know at this point, but one can guess that they did not see the Wall as a threat or limit to Targaryen power, or else Alysanne and Jaehaerys would have razed the Wall, not supported the NW.

And the letter Alysanne wrote seems to imply she more afraid of what's beyond the Wall than of the Wall as such.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Snip

The thing is - the wights weren't 'unconscious'. There eyes were open and blue. The magic was there. If we interpret Silverwing as being repelled by the Wall and refusing to fly beyond it then somebody dragging or carrying a wight through the Wall should see similar effects - like the wight suddenly rising and doing anything it its power to not get close to the Wall or within its power.

And if the wights were remote controlled by the Others in a skinchanger-like way then this bond would be broken by the Wall, meaning that no wight should have been able to target the leadership of the NW after they had been brought to CB.

This whole thing is somewhat of a knot.

 

 

Yes, I made the same point above re the wights, once they had crossed, were still acting on command of an Other.  I remember when I first read it, I believed the magic to animate them had been suspended until they were across.  But maybe that was another faulty conclusion.  A real knot.

Which of course brings the role of the Night's Watch into it too.

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19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

See above. Could be two different things - first the presence of the Wall, and that what's beyond the Wall when Alysanne tried to fly beyond.

After all, the Wall is made of ice.

But even if we were to attribute the whole thing only to the Wall (and I'm not buying that at this point) there is the chance that the magic in the Wall also points whoever can read or feel its magic (and Silverwing apparently can do that) to the Others.

 

I mean, if we believe the Wall was built to keep the Others then whatever magic is in there could refer or point to the Others on a magical level.

We don't know at this point, but one can guess that they did not see the Wall as a threat or limit to Targaryen power, or else Alysanne and Jaehaerys would have razed the Wall, not supported the NW.

And the letter Alysanne wrote seems to imply she more afraid of what's beyond the Wall than of the Wall as such.

The only thing about the magic referring or pointing to the Others that is a bit of a roadblock is that Melisandre felt the magic at the Wall too, and it seemed generic, not associated with the Others.

Mind you, I have long felt that There's a different quality to Targ fire magic and all the rest of the fire magic.  That the Valyrians were specifically imbued with dragon fire if and when they were made,  so strong-willed dragons would associate them as kin and allow a bond or control, particularly if raised from an egg.

So the Wall might be more specific about the types of ice and fire magic it stops from crossing: necromancers and the animated dead, dragon-riders and dragons?

Argh!

Edited by Lady Barbrey

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2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Interesting that Ygritte and Yandel list the Gendel and Gorne at 3000 years ago, apparently she's pretty good

I was about to say "Of course, they have the same sources: wildling tales", but that would be dishonest. The Citadel is expected to also have historical records from maesters in the North and in the NW, to say the least.

However, I can still question your logic. A handful of right infos makes Ygritte's/Wildling lore reliable? Isn't it the essence of a good lie to have some truth in it?

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

<snip>

Thank you, kissdbyfire. However, none of those quotes and facts does rule out that NW headquarters would have vary with time.

I agree with that it's somehow implied that it first was at Nightfort and a few centuries ago it moved to Castle Black, but still this matter remains open to and depending on interpretation of readers.

Edited by Ckram

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One would assume it happened afterwards. Keep in mind that this is the first royal progress of Jaehaerys and Alysanne into the North. If the First Night was very prominently practiced in the North then Alysanne and Jaehaerys would have found out of that while they were there.

And one can be sure that after the First Night was abolished the Umbers and Boltons did not practice the First Night while the Targaryens were there - and perhaps not even while they were looking and still had dragons. They may even have been forced to do it clandestinely later on, assuming the Starks were upholding the king's laws. And it seems Roose is of the opinion that they did. He was afraid of Rickard Stark.

No reason to believe that. One could imagine it happened by means of a Manderly serving in the Watch arranging a young wildling captive to be fostered at White Harbor. Or a man from the family who took the girl in.

Alysanne Targaryen was the greatest queen of Westeros. What did you expect? The way she appears here she may have been even a better monarch than Jaehaerys had she ruled the Seven Kingdoms in her own right rather than sharing in Jaehaerys' power as queen consort.

You hosted the Sons of the Dragon topic and I learned much there.   I recall a lord called The Guest (or close to that at any rate) who was either from the Vale or North who earned his title for being present at all the weddings to invoke his 1st Night Right.   I recall that people were sick of him and (gads, recall...) Maegor kicked his ass after all the complaints.   Probably misremembered, but I'm sure you recall who I'm trying to name here.   I get your reasoning for abolishment happening after Alysanne's visit.   Still it seems to me it really was a bothersome thing they would have known of since it was a problem in their parents' day.   

Sorry, Lord Varys, it's going to take some time for me to get over this Wildling foster child.   Who could have imagined such a thing and how widely practiced was this?   I can't wait for the book!   

Queen Alysanne was such a BAMF--absolutely the greatest queen of anything so far if you ask me.   I hope GRRM allows her to remain just this and there are no secret affairs or blights on her rep.   I'm really getting a kick out of your enjoying her as much as everyone else.   Thanks for the replies. 

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59 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

The only thing about the magic referring or pointing to the Others that is a bit of a roadblock is that Melisandre felt the magic at the Wall too, and it seemed generic, not associated with the Others.

That is true, but Mel is also not stopped by the Wall, which would give her less of a 'magical intuition' than a dragon like Silverwing. Mel is hot, but she doesn't *really burn* the way a dragon does.

16 minutes ago, Ckram said:

Thank you, kissdbyfire. However, none of those quotes and facts does rule out that NW headquarters would have vary with time.

While this is technically possible, there is a strong indication that originally there was only one gate through the Wall - the Black Gate beneath the Nightfort. Just as there was only one stair up the Wall - steps in the ice Bran and the Reeds use at the Nightfort.

The crude wooden steps and the tunnels are from later ages - and especially the latter might become massive problems in the future.

Perhaps the wights could be carried through the CB tunnel because cutting through the ice destroys the magic along that line, meaning that both the Others and the wights actually can walk through them?

If one wants to speculate about 'the road thing', by the way, it seems a Stark-built road from Winterfell to the Wall from before the Conquest should have gone to the Nightfort. Once the lord commander moved to CB such a road would have become less and less important and may have long disappeared when Bran and the Reeds walked there.

When the Kingsroad was made its last portion would have been along (or bettered) so that it went to CB, not the Nightfort.

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1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

The only thing about the magic referring or pointing to the Others that is a bit of a roadblock is that Melisandre felt the magic at the Wall too, and it seemed generic, not associated with the Others.

Mind you, I have long felt that There's a different quality to Targ fire magic and all the rest of the fire magic.  That the Valyrians were specifically imbued with dragon fire if and when they were made,  so strong-willed dragons would associate them as kin and allow a bond or control, particularly if raised from an egg.

So the Wall might be more specific about the types of ice and fire magic it stops from crossing: necromancers and the animated dead, dragon-riders and dragons?

Argh!

Just catching up.   It seems we agree here in getting the vibe Silverwing didn't like the Wall, not what lie beyond.  My thoughts went straight to Mel's comments about the magic being stronger there, too.   It's very interesting that a dragon wanted nothing to do with a place Mel says enhances her power.   What does that say about R'hllor and Valyrians in general?  Good point about there being a difference between Valyrian and other fire magic.   You just may be on to something here.  Look forward to watching you spin it out, Lady.   

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5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You hosted the Sons of the Dragon topic and I learned much there.   I recall a lord called The Guest (or close to that at any rate) who was either from the Vale or North who earned his title for being present at all the weddings to invoke his 1st Night Right.   I recall that people were sick of him and (gads, recall...) Maegor kicked his ass after all the complaints.   Probably misremembered, but I'm sure you recall who I'm trying to name here.   I get your reasoning for abolishment happening after Alysanne's visit.   Still it seems to me it really was a bothersome thing they would have known of since it was a problem in their parents' day.

That guy was Gargon the Guest of Harrenhal, the last lord of the Qoherys line. He was gelded and killed by Harren the Red during the rebellions after the death of Aegon the Conqueror.

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Sorry, Lord Varys, it's going to take some time for me to get over this Wildling foster child.   Who could have imagined such a thing and how widely practiced was this?   I can't wait for the book!

It is noteworthy but not necessarily completely strange. Women and children are not routinely murdered, and there is a 'wildling nobility' among them - or rather the people of the Seven Kingdoms see people like Val or Gerrick Kingsblood family in that way. Such people are 'taken under the wing' of the nobles and the royals, so it is not surprising that something like that can also happen with a wildling girl.

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Queen Alysanne was such a BAMF--absolutely the greatest queen of anything so far if you ask me.   I hope GRRM allows her to remain just this and there are no secret affairs or blights on her rep.   I'm really getting a kick out of your enjoying her as much as everyone else.   Thanks for the replies. 

Well, we all knew that she must have been remarkable to get the title of 'Good Queen', and now we finally get a glimpse of what that means.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I'm not saying they were targeting the wildlings in great numbers back then. But this doesn't mean that they weren't always there. Waiting and watching in the shadows. And if you think about it - what do you think the Others (if we assume for a moment they were there) would have felt and done if they had realized that a dragon was at the Wall...?

They don't lurk in the shadows. They bring a terrible cold wherever they go. and people die

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I love this excerpt and I adore the Targaryens. I will definitely be buying this and I love when my two favorite houses(Starks and Targaryens) interact. 

I wish that the books have been written by now so that we could get history books like this for the other great houses. 

I may despise the Lannisters, Baratheons, Greyjoys and dislike the Tullys but they have so much interesting history that I would buy all their books. What I wouldn’t give for a “Winter Is Comning” type of book. 

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