FIRE AND BLOOD EXCERPT

[The Grey Wolf]

9 minutes ago, Jaak said:

How old was Alysanne´s eldest child?

We don't know yet when Alysanne gave birth to Aemon.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

We don't know yet when Alysanne gave birth to Aemon.

Their eldest child was Prince Aegon, followed by Princess Daenerys. Aemon only comes third.

[The Grey Wolf]

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Their eldest child was Prince Aegon, followed by Princess Daenerys. Aemon only comes third.

Yeah but what year was his question.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Their eldest child was Prince Aegon, followed by Princess Daenerys. Aemon only comes third.

Which im still waiting to see how that played out. Im assuming Dany dies before Aemon dies? Or else Dany was passed over for Aemon. Making Rhaenys not the first. 

[AlaskanSandman]

10 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

The chances of the Good Queen cheating on the Old King are pretty much zero.

Possibly. Though i would still argue that something is up with Queen's Crown as we are shown it twice and told twice about it's ties to Alysanne. 

Crowning is a birthing term which seems like a pretty obvious clue to me.

Plus, we dont know if it was cheating really. Remember, wildling custom and Northern custom is to steal your bride. Which may be what triggered some of Alysanne's changes. 

House Mormont at least seems proud of this custom as Maege and Alysane are a part of this custom. Alysane probably being the child of Maege with Tormund. 

Though Bael's story is about a Valyrian stealing a Stark (Like Rhaegar stealing Lyanna possibly), but i imagine it possibly happens the other direction too. With a Valyrian being taken instead. 

[Lord Varys]

Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

Which im still waiting to see how that played out. Im assuming Dany dies before Aemon dies? Or else Dany was passed over for Aemon. Making Rhaenys not the first. 

You draw way too many parallels between unconnected things, but it seems rather likely that the various girls (Aerea, Rhaella, Rhaena, any children she may have had with Androw Farman, and Daenerys) would have been heirs to the Iron Throne while Jaehaerys and Alysanne didn't yet have any male children.

Depending when Aegon was born and how long he lived Aerea/Rhaella/Rhaena, etc. wouldn't have been heirs for all that long, and if Daenerys was the only living child of Jaehaerys for quite some time then she would have been heir to the Iron Throne for a considerable time.

House Targaryen was down to one male in 48 AC, and the immediate heirs of Jaehaerys I should have been the daughters of his late brother - followed by his two sisters.

Nobody is going to steal Alysanne (which isn't even done in the North). The morons trying something like that would most likely wish that Ramsay was flaying them...

Overall, some sort of divorce/separation thing could be behind those two weddings. After all, Maegor and Ceryse also have two weddings.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 11/9/2018 at 1:57 PM, The Grey Wolf said:

Yeah but what year was his question.

Well she was 13 if im not mistaken when they wed the first time, meaning she would likely have to wait three years before Aegon 

Edit- Correction, Alysanne was 14 when she wed Jaehaerys in 50ac. So likely waited till 52ac to have kids.

[AlaskanSandman]

26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You draw way too many parallels between unconnected things, but it seems rather likely that the various girls (Aerea, Rhaella, Rhaena, any children she may have had with Androw Farman, and Daenerys) would have been heirs to the Iron Throne while Jaehaerys and Alysanne didn't yet have any male children.

Depending when Aegon was born and how long he lived Aerea/Rhaella/Rhaena, etc. wouldn't have been heirs for all that long, and if Daenerys was the only living child of Jaehaerys for quite some time then she would have been heir to the Iron Throne for a considerable time.

House Targaryen was down to one male in 48 AC, and the immediate heirs of Jaehaerys I should have been the daughters of his late brother - followed by his two sisters.

Nobody is going to steal Alysanne (which isn't even done in the North). The morons trying something like that would most likely wish that Ramsay was flaying them...

Overall, some sort of divorce/separation thing could be behind those two weddings. After all, Maegor and Ceryse also have two weddings.

That's ok. I enjoy watching most of your post countered and argued against by every one and their mother too hhahaha Point is, your interpretation isn't the only one. Your assuming just as much. Aerea may have stayed heir but Rhaella or Rhaena??? Not. Aerea would have been dropped for Aegon lest he died too soon. Dany would have passed over Aerea though. Aegon III's children ruled after him, not Visery II his brother. So Dany should have inherited unless she died too young. Instead we see it go to Baelon. So she either died or was passed over. Didn't seem that complicated to me. 

And how does it not happen in the North when i gave you a clear example of it happening? Umbers, Boltons, and Mountain Clans also practice first Night, which is bride stealing. So how can you even say that? Every one of those example is of the proper North, not north of the wall. 

But yes, i agree. Divorce or separation is likely the cause behind those two weddings. Obviously that first quarrel was a whopper. 

[AlaskanSandman]

33 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Nobody is going to steal Alysanne (which isn't even done in the North). The morons trying something like that would most likely wish that Ramsay was flaying them...

What a great story that would be. Almost like that of the Burnt Men of the Vale. Only the bravest and strongest of men (perfect for fathering strong sons) would even dare get near a female who rode dragons (Nettles). Oh but how brave he was, for when he saw her, he knew he had to have her. And to die such a death, there could be no greater fate. But that was his greatest weakness, for all men must know fear. So he chased her and loved her and gave his soul and seed to her. If he died later though, so be it, long as she bore him a son or daughter, or even twins or triplets. Bastard to be sure, but a bastard may rise high in the world. 

Such a figure or their children may have been flayed. We do hear that Bael's child was flayed by a Bolton and Bael's name is Valyrian in its spelling.

But everything i said above was more or less paraphrased from the books, Bael, Night's King, Burnt Men, Nettles, Bastards, these things even happening in the Vale and South while your debating about whether it could happen in the North. It could happen, especially with Alysanne riding ahead of her party. Hypothetically at least. 

[HexMachina]

First night is claiming a “right” to rape a bride on her wedding night. “Bride stealing” is the (admittedly morally dubious) wildling custom of a man taking his intended bride away from her tribe and family. They are two distinct practices

[Jaak]

We also don´t hear when Aegon (or Daenerys) died. Unlike Aemon, they did not leave surviving issue.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

First night is claiming a “right” to rape a bride on her wedding night. “Bride stealing” is the (admittedly morally dubious) wildling custom of a man taking his intended bride away from her tribe and family. They are two distinct practices

Yes there are differences, but stealing a woman and sleeping with her, is stealing a woman and sleeping with her. I dont think the duration of which you plan on keeping her make them much different. 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Jaak said:

We also don´t hear when Aegon (or Daenerys) died. Unlike Aemon, they did not leave surviving issue.

We dont' know when Aegon was born, but we know he supposedly died young or miscarriage (Can't remember which off hand).

Daenerys was an interesting change, and im guessing she lived near long enough to birth but apparently didn't. She must have lived long enough though to be worth modifying Daeron's sister formerly Daenerys I. 

[Jaak]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Yes there are differences, but stealing a woman and sleeping with her, is stealing a woman and sleeping with her. I dont think the duration of which you plan on keeping her make them much different. 

Makes a lot different.

Such as - "stolen" from whom? What´s her attitude?

[AlaskanSandman]

57 minutes ago, Jaak said:

Makes a lot different.

Such as - "stolen" from whom? What´s her attitude?

Id except her attitude on it maybe being a defining factor, but from who was she stolen?

Say a wildling woman unlike Ygritte though. Not as strong and fierce. Maybe more like Dalla. Say she was taken and couldn't fight back and was too afraid to try to slit his throat at night. Is it still the same now? Same wildling people and custom. 

[Seams]

The released excerpt, describing the flirtation between the Queen and Lord Stark, and the dragon refusing to fly across the Wall, is starting to clarify one interpretation of GRRM's major metaphors: the Wall.

I have been slowly re-reading The Sworn Sword for the third time this year, trying to get my thoughts together for the next installment of the A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms re-read. @Feather Crystal suggested a comparison of the Wall with the dam in The Sworn Sword and this opened a floodgate (so to speak) of interpretation for me.

In The Sworn Sword, we have two Houses that were once on good terms but are now completely at odds with each other: House Osgrey and House Webber. They are separated by a stream called the Chequy Water and neither head of household will cross the stream or stream bed to the land of the other neighbor - I think both the stream and the dam are the barrier in the novella, where the Wall embodies both water and dam in ASOIAF. After our hero kills one evil presence and another evil presence runs away, it is as if a magical barrier has fallen away and the two estranged heads of household don't just start to communicate, but actually get married.

In the Fire & Blood excerpt, we hear that Alysanne is determined to fly beyond the Wall, but her dragon refuses to cross the line. Lord Alaric Stark met the Queen and the dragon and "He then proceeded to declare that he did not want her dragon inside his walls." Perhaps symbolically, Jaehaerys is "trapped" at King's Landing, bringing together two enemy communities in a diplomatic negotiation, while the Alysanne / Alaric alliance seems to be building to a climax in the north. Inside walls, separated by walls, lots of wall stuff going on. Does Alysanne have to "rescue" both Alaric and Jaehaerys? Is she the dragon between both walls?

I know that the Wall is complex and has many layers of interpretation as a metaphor, but it appears that marriage and/or sexual attraction is one of the symbols GRRM is putting forward for our consideration. Although it might even be more fundamental than that: crossing barriers to end enmity and promote goodwill. As a Tully, Catelyn is always a river symbol. She has to be present, I believe, when Renly and Stannis parly (and Renly offers Stannis a peach which Stannis declines.)

As I get further along in deciphering The Sworn Sword, I will share what I can of the Chequy Water as a hint about the larger dam and Wall metaphor. I wonder what it means that Dunk the Lunk is thick as a castle wall, but he seems to be the catalyst to bring down the barrier between Houses Webber and Osgrey?

I know the Chequy / cheek metaphor has something to do with biting peaches, which brings me to the lyrics of The Dornishman's Wife:

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Oh but how brave he was, for when he saw her, he knew he had to have her. And to die such a death, there could be no greater fate. ... If he died later though, so be it ...

"The Dornishman's Wife" is a song about a man who slept with the wife of a Dornishman. Although he died of wounds received in a duel with the Dornishman, the man considered it a fair trade.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Dornishman's_Wife

 

[Jaak]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Id except her attitude on it maybe being a defining factor, but from who was she stolen?

Say a wildling woman unlike Ygritte though. Not as strong and fierce. Maybe more like Dalla. Say she was taken and couldn't fight back and was too afraid to try to slit his throat at night. Is it still the same now? Same wildling people and custom. 

My point is that in a lot of societies that practice "bride theft", the bride is regarded as stolen from her family - and elopement with bride´s active cooperation is included in the term "bride theft".

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Seams said:

"The Dornishman's Wife" is a song about a man who slept with the wife of a Dornishman. Although he died of wounds received in a duel with the Dornishman, the man considered it a fair trade.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/The_Dornishman's_Wife

Nice catch, i didn't even think about that in my ad-lib story. Helps my point though that all of these things seem to be core points built into his world or myth. Little bits adding up to something. Though i may be wrong, i still think all these things are adding up to something.

Also ill have to check out what your saying about the walls and such in comparisons to The Sworn Sword. I like those kind of mirroring in the story 

[AlaskanSandman]

51 minutes ago, Jaak said:

My point is that in a lot of societies that practice "bride theft", the bride is regarded as stolen from her family - and elopement with bride´s active cooperation is included in the term "bride theft".

Interesting. Would you considered House Mormont "Informed" about Maege and Tormund? Stealing a woman North of the Wall doesn't seem to guarantee that she's "yours", as Maege is still at Bear Island. What's interesting is that her daughter seems to be practicing the same thing. 

Also didn't answer my question regarding taking a wildling woman who is meek and non violent. Would that still fall under ok? What if she doesn't have parents anymore? Where's Ygrittes parents? What sit down was there ever with Jon? 

[Jaak]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Also didn't answer my question regarding taking a wildling woman who is meek and non violent. Would that still fall under ok? What if she doesn't have parents anymore? Where's Ygrittes parents? What sit down was there ever with Jon? 

In that case, it is Jon who was almost raped.