Why didn't Littlefinger try the Bronn approach in dueling?

[Lluewhyn]

Others have brought up good points but it's also good to remember that there's a bit of anachronistic thinking in the story so far about fighting without armor giving you a lot more mobility than people fighting in full plate. There are plenty of Youtube videos showing people in full plate armor doing calisthenics or even obstacle courses while wearing full plate, because properly fitted armor isn't that encumbering.

 

Bronn has an edge on his opponent because he's older, but the armor difference shouldn't be that big of a deal. Hard to say about the Mountain/Oberyn fight, because the Mountain *is* described as being not that fast and Oberyn is using a weapon with reach where he's pretty skilled. Petyr, having little skill, strength, or experience, is not going to defeat a superior opponent by being wiry. Part of the point of that fight and his character was that he *thought* that he could do so, because he read it in romantic stories. I'd argue that there's evidence that he *didn't* have much experience with fighting otherwise he wouldn't make such a newbie mistake.

[Blackfish Tully]

59 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

Littlefinger can throw a knife now that he is in his thirties but it doesn't follow that he had that ability when he was fifteen years old and challenged Brandon Stark to a duel.  Perhaps he picked up a few self defense skills after the humiliation he felt after being sent away from Riverrun.

that could be true but why is it so hard to believe that Littlefinger who is the son and grandson of Knights and who's great grandfather won a Lordship with his sword and who was raised in Riverrun (where he would have been expected to train alongside Edmure with Riverrun's Master at Arms ) would actually be competent with a blade . I would assume the whole fostering thing would include the deal that Hoster would ensure Petyr had the same basic upbringing as Edmure. Sure there are sons of Lords who are not good fighters but they seem to be the exception (Sam especially) rather then the rule .  

[White Ravens]

I don't find it hard to believe that Littlefinger would have received some training with a blade.  What I find hard to believe is him, at the age of fifteen, having excelled in martial arts to the point that he can expect to successfully challenge a twenty year old who is known to have such fighting skills that he thought he could defeat Rheagar in a duel and who had won the respect of Jaime for his skills with a sword.  Can a white belt reasonably expect to defeat a black belt in karate?

[the trees have eyes]

15 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

that could be true but why is it so hard to believe that Littlefinger who is the son and grandson of Knights and who's great grandfather won a Lordship with his sword and who was raised in Riverrun (where he would have been expected to train alongside Edmure with Riverrun's Master at Arms ) would actually be competent with a blade . I would assume the whole fostering thing would include the deal that Hoster would ensure Petyr had the same basic upbringing as Edmure. Sure there are sons of Lords who are not good fighters but they seem to be the exception (Sam especially) rather then the rule .  

So if he had the breeding, the training and the ability with a sword why did he not become a knight as the sons of noblemen do as a mark of prestige? 

Is it so hard to accept that, as we are told and shown throughout the novels, he despises and avoids swordplay because it's a contest he cannot win?

[rotting sea cow]

15 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

that could be true but why is it so hard to believe that Littlefinger who is the son and grandson of Knights and who's great grandfather won a Lordship with his sword and who was raised in Riverrun (where he would have been expected to train alongside Edmure with Riverrun's Master at Arms ) would actually be competent with a blade . I would assume the whole fostering thing would include the deal that Hoster would ensure Petyr had the same basic upbringing as Edmure. Sure there are sons of Lords who are not good fighters but they seem to be the exception (Sam especially) rather then the rule .  

Yes, he probably was trained at Riverrun, but it is not enough.

We see for instance Jon Snow, who was trained from early age and has practiced swordplay practically everyday since he was old enough to wield a sword, yet Mance wiped the floor with him. Brandon was probably in the same league as Mance and certainly Littlefinger was not near as skilled as Jon. To pull a Bronn's approach, you need more than training, you need experience and being physically apt. Littlefinger had none of this.

[Blackfish Tully]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Is it so hard to accept that, as we are told and shown throughout the novels, he despises and avoids swordplay because it's a contest he cannot win?

when are we shown that he despises and avoids swordplay? 

[the trees have eyes]

1 minute ago, Blackfish Tully said:

when are we shown that he despises and avoids swordplay? 

Where do we see him engage in it other than as a hapless 15 year old?  If he had all the training, skills and family background why is it not a hallmark of his character?  He's small and slight, never became a knight, never takes part in tourneys or practices with a sword at the Red Keep.  He's not martial or physical, he's thoughtful and given to intrigue and political ploys.

If you want to make Petyr out to be a great swordsman you have to show it, not assume it exists but is kept hidden.  I honestly don't know why you would assume this about him or be so adamant about it.

[Blackfish Tully]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Where do we see him engage in it other than as a hapless 15 year old?  If he had all the training, skills and family background why is it not a hallmark of his character?  He's small and slight, never became a knight, never takes part in tourneys or practices with a sword at the Red Keep.  He's not martial or physical, he's thoughtful and given to intrigue and political ploys.

If you want to make Petyr out to be a great swordsman you have to show it, not assume it exists but is kept hidden.  I honestly don't know why you would assume this about him or be so adamant about it.

When did I say Peter is a great swordsman?

my only points were that we cannot assume that he is an incompetetent swordsman because he was beaten by Brandon , most 15 year olds no matter how well trained would have no chance against the 20 year old Brandon . Being the son of a Lord and the ward of a Lord Paramount would more then likely mean that at the very least that Peter would have had years of training under Master at Arms , does not mean he is a great swordsman but it would mean he would be competent with a sword and would be better trained then most of the men in Westeros who had no formal training. Sure there are exceptions but as a rule in Westeros if you are in a Noble family you will receive extensive  military training.

[zandru]

21 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Littlefinger can throw a knife now that he is in his thirties but it doesn't follow that he had that ability when he was fifteen years old and challenged Brandon Stark to a duel.  Perhaps he picked up a few self defense skills after the humiliation he felt after being sent away from Riverrun.

I agree. Also, being able to toss a dagger doesn't imply he's a whiz with a longsword. Totally different skills. The competence with the little blade is more what you might expect from a cutpurse or Flea Alley fighter. Just what you might expect "Little"finger" to go in for, after his humiliation trying to be a knight.

[Ylath's Snout]

30 minutes ago, zandru said:

The competence with the little blade is more what you might expect from a cutpurse or Flea Alley fighter.

It is my understanding that there is almost no crossover between hand-on-hand knife fighting skills and knife throwing skills. So knife throwing isn't indicative of actually being able to cut a fool a Flea Bottom.

[the trees have eyes]

1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

When did I say Peter is a great swordsman?

my only points were that we cannot assume that he is an incompetetent swordsman because he was beaten by Brandon , most 15 year olds no matter how well trained would have no chance against the 20 year old Brandon . Being the son of a Lord and the ward of a Lord Paramount would more then likely mean that at the very least that Peter would have had years of training under Master at Arms , does not mean he is a great swordsman but it would mean he would be competent with a sword and would be better trained then most of the men in Westeros who had no formal training. Sure there are exceptions but as a rule in Westeros if you are in a Noble family you will receive extensive  military training.

But all these points have been addressed from his fairly miserable upbringing on the Fingers at Sheepshit Tower, his small frame ill-suited for sword-fighting, his lack of any interest in or pursuit of being a swordsman or a knight, and his preference for using his wits and intrigue over duels or challenges - save the one solitary misstep of a 15 year old runt challenging a real swordsman to a duel out of desperation.

There is nothing in the series to suggest he has any ability, has ever had any interest or made any serious effort at training for combat.  No character remarks on this: not Brynden Tully, Cat or Lysa who grew up with him and no one who has spent years at Court with him in King's Landing either.  I may have played ruby at school but I haven't since and that does not make me a competent or professional rugby player: same for Littlefinger whether he ever swung a sword at a dummy in the yard at Riverrun or not.

[Blackfish Tully]

43 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

But all these points have been addressed from his fairly miserable upbringing on the Fingers at Sheepshit Tower, Riverrun or not.

Petyr being the son of  a Lord of the Vale and ward to Riverrun had a better & easier upbringing then 99% of the people in Westeros . 

 

43 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

, his lack of any interest in or pursuit of being a swordsman or a knight,

there is no reference anywhere in the books to this , for all we know he was very interested in becoming a competent swordsman but changed his mind after his near death experience with Brandon or he continued his training after he recovered , how would we know what Petyr did or not do over the last 10 years ? the only POV's we have seen interact with him are his enemies and victims so it's not like he is going to discuss his workout routine with them . 

 

43 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is nothing in the series to suggest he has any ability, has ever had any interest or made any serious effort at training for combat.  No character remarks on this: not Brynden Tully, Cat or Lysa who grew up with him and no one who has spent years at Court with him in King's Landing either.

Brynden , Cat or Lysa or anyone who spent time with him in Kings Landing were a little busy dealing with a war to spend much time wondering what Littlefinger was doing in the last 10 years . I guess after finding out from Littlefinger that Tyrion tried to murder her son she could have asked him "so , what have you been doing the last 10 years , still working out ? how is your swordfighting going ? sorry about the whole thing with my fiancee trying to cut you in half that one time " 

 

43 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

r.  I may have played ruby at school but I haven't since and that does not make me a competent or professional rugby player: same for Littlefinger whether he ever swung a sword at a dummy in the yard at Riverrun or not.

I would assume that you are better then the 99% of people who have never played rugby one second in their life ? Littlefinger would have spent years training under a Master at Arms in Riverrun and from what we've seen of that Master of Arms he seems like a no nonsense guy who would have taken pride in his work . His job is to train Edmure and Petyr and he would have been pretty tough on them so it's much more then swinging a sword at a dummy . the competence of his trainees would have been a direct reflection  on him and he would not have slacked in their training . 

[the trees have eyes]

On 10/3/2018 at 5:33 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

Petyr being the son of  a Lord of the Vale and ward to Riverrun had a better & easier upbringing then 99% of the people in Westeros . 

He's not a Lord of the Vale: this is precisely why he needs to become Lord of Harrenhall to be a suitor to Lysa Arryn.  You can't miss that the nobility look down on him as of lesser status.  His background is well known to us and his miserable family holdings are revealed through a Sansa POV.  There is no master at arms or castellan, just a few servants.

"Petyr's great-grandfather was a Braavosi sellsword in the service of Lord Corbray; when his son became a hedge knight, he took the stone head of the Titan of Braavos as his sigil. Petyr's father, in turn, was the smallest of small lords of a few rocky acres on the smallest of the Fingers,^[7] who befriended Hoster Tully during his service in the War of the Ninepenny Kings."

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Petyr_Baelish

His grandfather was a hedge knight, his father was granted / bought (?) a few acres of lands with no value to anyone else and he is on the lowest rung of the feudal ladder, a minor gentryman with a few acres to his name.

On 10/3/2018 at 5:33 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

there is no reference anywhere in the books to this , for all we know he was very interested in becoming a competent swordsman but changed his mind after his near death experience with Brandon or he continued his training after he recovered , how would we know what Petyr did or not do over the last 10 years ? the only POV's we have seen interact with him are his enemies and victims so it's not like he is going to discuss his workout routine with them . 

The bolded is the entire problem with your premise, the more so as it contradicts everything we are shown of him in the books.  If GRRM had wanted LF to be a swordsman of any note or to have received any meaningful training with a sword he could easily have included it in any dialogue or recollections from Brynden, Catelyn or Lysa of LF's childhood, or from any number of characters at KL where LF has been for a decade or more: Varys for one is pretty good at finding things out about people.

On 10/3/2018 at 5:33 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

Brynden , Cat or Lysa or anyone who spent time with him in Kings Landing were a little busy dealing with a war to spend much time wondering what Littlefinger was doing in the last 10 years . I guess after finding out from Littlefinger that Tyrion tried to murder her son she could have asked him "so , what have you been doing the last 10 years , still working out ? how is your swordfighting going ? sorry about the whole thing with my fiancee trying to cut you in half that one time " 

Come again?  I mention three characters who grew up with him who would be able to recollect if he had any aptitude or interest in swordfighting or spent any time training at Riverrun AND I mention no one who has spent years with him at Court remarks on this either.  That's two different groups of people covering the two major parts of his life, none of whom give your argument any plausible foundation.  It's a shame you did not understand that and attempted to elide the two into a strawman you could more easily object to. 

On 10/3/2018 at 5:33 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

I would assume that you are better then the 99% of people who have never played rugby one second in their life ? Littlefinger would have spent years training under a Master at Arms in Riverrun and from what we've seen of that Master of Arms he seems like a no nonsense guy who would have taken pride in his work . His job is to train Edmure and Petyr and he would have been pretty tough on them so it's much more then swinging a sword at a dummy . the competence of his trainees would have been a direct reflection  on him and he would not have slacked in their training . 

Actually I was pretty good at ruby but that doesn't make me any good at it 15 years later on particularly if I was against younger, fitter, stronger and more accomplished players, regularly practicing and honing their skills.  And there were plenty of people at school who were rubbish at rugby despite playing it every week for years because, and here's the thing, they had no interest in or aptitude for it and saw it as something to be endured only for as long as they had to endure it: guys who were small, fat, slow, lazy, timid or generally frail. 

Petyr is small and slight and I think the idea of a larger boy bashing him across the courtyard would be something he would hate and avoid.  Plus there simply is no recollection from anyone that he received this martial training you keep going on about.  We know from his duel with Brandon that he was too poor to have his own armour (so much for his upbringing and training as a son of a Lord of the Vale) and that he spent 100% of the fight getting smashed round the yard.  If he had some training or skill that GRRM wanted us to know about all he would have had to do was have Cat's recollection of the duel include something along the lines of "for all his skill and training" Petyr was still half a boy and Brandon was a man grown etc....

Nowhere in the novels is Petyr linked with swordsmanship in even the most tenuous way save for his desperate romantic duel for Cat.  He came away from that with an abiding hatred of those who looked down on him and a determination to take them down by subterfuge and intrigue rather than play them at their own game as that was a game he cold not win.  It's fundamental to his character.

[Blackfish Tully]

54 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

He's not a Lord of the Vale: this is precisely why he needs to become Lord of Harrenhall to be a suitor to Lysa Arryn.  You can't miss that the nobility look down on him as of lesser status.  His background is well known to us and his miserable family holdings are revealed through a Sansa POV.  There is no master at arms or castellan, just a few servants.

 

from the wiki  : House Baelish of the Fingers is a noble house from the Vale

being the lowest of the Lords is still better then 99% of the rest of Westeros , not to mention that he was a Ward to the Lord Paramount of Riverrun which would mean he has the same upbringing as Edmure the heir to Riverrun.

54 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

The bolded is the entire problem with your premise, the more so as it contradicts everything we are shown of him in the books.  If GRRM had wanted LF to be a swordsman of any note or to have received any meaningful training with a sword he could easily have included it in any dialogue or recollections from Brynden, Catelyn or Lysa of LF's childhood, or from any number of characters at KL where LF has been for a decade or more: Varys for one is pretty good at finding things out about people.etyr was still half a boy and Brandon was a man grown etc....

Nowhere in the novels is Petyr linked with swordsmanship in even the most tenuous way save for his desperate romantic duel for Cat.  He came away from that with an abiding hatred of those who looked down on him and a determination to take them down by subterfuge and intrigue rather than play them at their own game as that was a game he cold not win.  It's fundamental to his character.

part of the deal with Hoster raising Petyr as his ward would be that he would give Petyr the same ubringing and training as his own son . Edmure would have trained with Riverrun's Master of Arms nearly everyday and Petyr would have trained right next to him. why is that so hard to believe? Robb and Jon spent their whole childhood training at arms and we know that the Riverlands are a very martial society as well and Edmure would receive the same traning as the Stark kids, so why is it so hard to believe at the very least Petyr had years of sword training under Riverrun's Master of Arms? Don't you think that Edmure would have received  the same training in arms as Robb ? if that's true then wouldn't Petyr as Hoster's ward receive that same training ? what am I missing ?

 

 

54 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Come again?  I mention three characters who grew up with him who would be able to recollect if he had any aptitude or interest in swordfighting or spent any time training at Riverrun AND I mention no one who has spent years with him at Court remarks on this either.  That's two different groups of people covering the two major parts of his life, none of whom give your argument any plausible foundation.  It's a shame you did not understand that and attempted to elide the two into a strawman you could more easily object to. 

 

is there any point in the POVs of the 3 you mentioned that Petyr's sword skill would ever be a part of their thinking or conversation . Cat spent the whole time worrying about her family, Brynden was fighting a war and Lysa was insane . Just because nobody mentions it does not mean it does not exist especially since almost all Lord's sons receive sword training as children in Westeros so really it would not be a big deal . It would be like playing soccer in Germany , nearly every kid does it as a child so no one would think about it as adults .

Riverrun has a Master at Arms who's job would have been to train Edmure and Petyr as swordsmen, does not mean he is a master swordsman but it would mean that he has had years training under a competent Master of Arms which would mean he's better than most of Westeros who have had no training .

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

8 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

not to mention that he was a Ward to the Lord Paramount of Riverrun which would mean he has the same upbringing as Edmure the heir to Riverrun.

Not at all, it depends on a) what Hoster decided would be the best training for him and b) whether LF showed any interest/ability. He may have had an opportunity to train at swordsmanship, that doesn't mean he necessarily took advantage of it.

9 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

part of the deal with Hoster raising Petyr as his ward would be that he would give Petyr the same ubringing and training as his own son

That's an assumption. We have no idea what "deal" was reached. An extremely minor lord having his son offered a wardship with Hoster Tully would grab that with two hands, he'd hardly make conditions.

10 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Edmure would have trained with Riverrun's Master of Arms nearly everyday and Petyr would have trained right next to him. why is that so hard to believe?

It's not hard to believe. It's a possibility, not a fact. What you are saying is plausible, it doesn't mean it's fact.

11 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

so why is it so hard to believe at the very least Petyr had years of sword training under Riverrun's Master of Arms? Don't you think that Edmure would have received  the same training in arms as Robb ? if that's true then wouldn't Petyr as Hoster's ward receive that same training ? what am I missing ?

You're missing what we know of LF generally, about his character and where his skill set lies. It's not impossible that you're right, it's just that there's no indication in the text that you are. Everything points to LF eschewing combat.

15 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

It would be like playing soccer in Germany , nearly every kid does it as a child so no one would think about it as adults .

Is every German kid good at football then?

While there is no definite proof one way or the other, there are plenty of indications that LF has no interest in fighting. He openly tells Tyrion at his first SC that the idea of war doesn't interest him. The one fight we know he was in, he got slapped about Riverrun. After that, all we know is he became a brilliant administrator and worked up the ranks through that route. I'm happy to be proven wrong if, in the next couple of books, he suddenly reveals ninja skills, or there's some kind of flashback that suggests he knew how to fight in the past, but I very much doubt that will happen.

Let's put it another way. It's possible that LF did receive training at Riverrun. What's also possible is that he had a go, and decided it wasn't for him. Another possibility is that he never showed any interest. All these are possible, what we know for certain, from the text, is that he's not a swordsman now.

[Blackfish Tully]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Not at all, it depends on a) what Hoster decided would be the best training for him and b) whether LF showed any interest/ability. He may have had an opportunity to train at swordsmanship, that doesn't mean he necessarily took advantage of it.

That's an assumption. We have no idea what "deal" was reached. An extremely minor lord having his son offered a wardship with Hoster Tully would grab that with two hands, he'd hardly make conditions.

It's not hard to believe. It's a possibility, not a fact. What you are saying is plausible, it doesn't mean it's fact.

You're missing what we know of LF generally, about his character and where his skill set lies. It's not impossible that you're right, it's just that there's no indication in the text that you are. Everything points to LF eschewing combat.

Is every German kid good at football then?

While there is no definite proof one way or the other, there are plenty of indications that LF has no interest in fighting. He openly tells Tyrion at his first SC that the idea of war doesn't interest him. The one fight we know he was in, he got slapped about Riverrun. After that, all we know is he became a brilliant administrator and worked up the ranks through that route. I'm happy to be proven wrong if, in the next couple of books, he suddenly reveals ninja skills, or there's some kind of flashback that suggests he knew how to fight in the past, but I very much doubt that will happen.

Let's put it another way. It's possible that LF did receive training at Riverrun. What's also possible is that he had a go, and decided it wasn't for him. Another possibility is that he never showed any interest. All these are possible, what we know for certain, from the text, is that he's not a swordsman now.

Petyr would not have had a choice on whether or not to train neither would Edmure , Hoster Tully was a hard ass and Edmure and Petyr would be training with a Master at Arms every day. Really what else would boys be doing in Westeros at that age ? The lord’s daughters would be learning how to run a household and lord’s sons would be learning how to fight . Does not mean either would become a master swordsman. But it would mean that they would at least been competent . I doubt that Edmure at 15 would have done much better then Petyr against a 20 year old Brandon . 

[the trees have eyes]

On 10/5/2018 at 4:18 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

part of the deal with Hoster raising Petyr as his ward would be that he would give Petyr the same ubringing and training as his own son . Edmure would have trained with Riverrun's Master of Arms nearly everyday and Petyr would have trained right next to him. why is that so hard to believe? Robb and Jon spent their whole childhood training at arms and we know that the Riverlands are a very martial society as well and Edmure would receive the same traning as the Stark kids, so why is it so hard to believe at the very least Petyr had years of sword training under Riverrun's Master of Arms? Don't you think that Edmure would have received  the same training in arms as Robb ? if that's true then wouldn't Petyr as Hoster's ward receive that same training ? what am I missing ?

What you're missing is that none of this in the books.  .  Petyr never recalls it, the people he grew up with or watched him grow up never recall it, the people he has spent years with in King's Landing never recall any behaviour from him at any point that shows any interest in or practice at swordsmanship.  He's been on page since early in AGOT and we have seen him in story an awful lot.  If GRRM wanted this martial skills to be a feature of his character or his skillset he could show us this or clue us in with hints or observations but no, there is nothing at all.

Petyr was not being raised by Hoster Tully to be a great Lord as Edmure was.  Why would he be?  We have seen where he came from and we know the extent of his holdings and his family's status and quite obviously Hoster knew this inside out.  Why would he treat Petyr as an equal to Edmure when quite clearly he is not?

On 10/5/2018 at 4:18 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

is there any point in the POVs of the 3 you mentioned that Petyr's sword skill would ever be a part of their thinking or conversation . Cat spent the whole time worrying about her family, Brynden was fighting a war and Lysa was insane . Just because nobody mentions it does not mean it does not exist especially since almost all Lord's sons receive sword training as children in Westeros so really it would not be a big deal . It would be like playing soccer in Germany , nearly every kid does it as a child so no one would think about it as adults .

This is silly.  The author can show us information he wants us to have whenever he chooses to.  Cat even recalls LF's duel with Brandon which, apart from really showing how wrong your objection is here, is the perfect opening for GRRM to give us any pertinent background on Petyr training or becoming a doughty warrior at Riverrun.  He doesn't and everything we see of LF in story points to him avoiding it like the plague.

On 10/5/2018 at 4:18 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

Riverrun has a Master at Arms who's job would have been to train Edmure and Petyr as swordsmen, does not mean he is a master swordsman but it would mean that he has had years training under a competent Master of Arms which would mean he's better than most of Westeros who have had no training .

Just like Samwell Tarly, hey?

[Rufus Snow]

On 10/5/2018 at 4:18 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

so why is it so hard to believe at the very least Petyr had years of sword training under Riverrun's Master of Arms? Don't you think that Edmure would have received  the same training in arms as Robb ? if that's true then wouldn't Petyr as Hoster's ward receive that same training ? what am I missing ?

It's 'hard to believe' because Petyr doesn't seem to remember doing it when he recalls his childhood, and Cat and Lysa don't remember him doing it when they remember his childhood. What they do remember is kissing games and feeding him mud pies till he throws up and is sick for a week. If George wanted LF to be any sort of swordsman, we'd get at least a little of it by now, five books into the series. But no, we get the seven stone weakling who's small for his age and frail and learns to fight his battles by other means, and very well, too.

What you seem to be missing is the time to sit down with the books and absorb the words George has written.

[Blackfish Tully]

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

What you're missing is that none of this in the books.  .  Petyr never recalls it, the people he grew up with or watched him grow up never recall it, the people he has spent years with in King's Landing never recall any behaviour from him at any point that shows any interest in or practice at swordsmanship.  He's been on page since early in AGOT and we have seen him in story an awful lot.  If GRRM wanted this martial skills to be a feature of his character or his skillset he could show us this or clue us in with hints or observations but no, there is nothing at all.

 

Nobody recalls Petyr's sword training because it just never comes up and frankly Lord's sons training at arms when they are children in Westeros would be such a common thing that it's really not a big deal that anybody would think of it . 

 

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

Petyr was not being raised by Hoster Tully to be a great Lord as Edmure was.  Why would he be?  We have seen where he came from and we know the extent of his holdings and his family's status and quite obviously Hoster knew this inside out.  Why would he treat Petyr as an equal to Edmure when quite clearly he is not?

 

I don't think you understand how the whole "ward" thing works and why it's such a big deal. Taking someone as a ward means that you are raising them with your children , in other words Hoster would be raising Petyr as his own son and that would mean he would get all the training that Edmure would get . Unless you think that the 12 year old Petyr could tell Hoster Tully and his Master at Arms thanks but no thanks on the training . I'm not saying that Petyr is a master swordsman but what i am saying is that he would have had years of training with a Master of Arms just like every other son of a Lord in Westeros

 

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

Just like Samwell Tarly, hey?

Samwell Tarly did receive years of training with various Master at Arms just like every other Lords son in Westeros . He just happens to be so bad at it that his own father threatens to murder him and ends up sending his own heir to the Wall . 

Petyr may be just as awful as Sam or he may be merely competent or he might be pretty good . At this point we have no idea but we do know that he would have trained with Riverrun's Master at Arms alongside Edmure while he was Hoster Tully's ward . 

 

[Lluewhyn]

This argument is getting ridiculously circular.

Everyone: Here are the practical, textual, and thematic reasons why it doesn't make sense that Petyr has more than a cursory knowledge of weapon training. Sure, it's POSSIBLE, but extremely unlikely. (Possible in the same way that Littlefinger actually has magical skills on par with Bloodraven: technically it's feasible but it's a literary Ass Pull).

Blackfish Tully: But you don't KNOW that he couldn't still be a mighty warrior hiding it.

I think no one's convincing anyone else here at this point? Besides, the original post was about using nimble moves to circle around Brynden, which just wasn't going to work. I think it's a bit of a stretch leaning towards fantasy cliches that GRRM was able to get away with it using two very skilled warriors like Bronn and Oberyn as it was. That's a serious drop of writing quality to suggest that someone who has not been textually stated to have any fighting ability starts pulling ninja moves.