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Angel Eyes

Why didn't Littlefinger try the Bronn approach in dueling?

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13 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Yeah, rewarding treasonous bannermen that won't heed the call while snubbing loyal Houses. Nothing could go wrong there.

Meh, the Freys only really committed treason during the end of the war when the rebels were a sure thing. Not the most noble one can say, but given their oaths to the iron-throne can be seen as superceding the ones they have for house Tully, and the fact they are within the Tully’s reach I will not begrudge him for his decision to stay neutral. Besides, Tully broke his oaths to the iron-throne and openly committed treason(just as Walder would later do when he joined Rob’s crusade to save Riverrun), because his family stood to improve their political position. It’s the crow calling the raven black in regards to Hoster’s complaints of Walder. 

 

13 hours ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Not to mention that House Frey's is so large that you'd have to ward twelve kids or something like that to make all the branches happy with you.

Not really. The ward would be Lord Walder’s gift. 

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6 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not the most noble one can say, but given their oaths to the iron-throne can be seen as superceding the ones they have for house Tully, and the fact they are within the Tully’s reach I will not begrudge him for his decision to stay neutral.

Sure remaining "neutral" isn't completely unreasonable. (Even if I belong to the camp that think believe the society of Westeros society works via chains of feudal obligation not a absolute monarchy.)

But that doesn't mean you reward someone that stayed neutral over lords that proved their ride-of-die-yness.

11 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Not really. The ward would be Lord Walder’s gift. 

What do you mean?

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1 hour ago, Trigger Warning said:

If anyone ever pulls a knife on you in the street just dodge all their attacks and you'll be okay. 

:agree:

Thread winner!  The premise of this thread is naive and silly.  A boy can't defeat a trained adult swordsman by simply dodging blades and wearing down their opponent. 

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56 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

Sure remaining "neutral" isn't completely unreasonable. (Even if I belong to the camp that think believe the society of Westeros society works via chains of feudal obligation not a absolute monarchy.)

I don’t get parentheses on the word neutral-that’s exactly what the Freys did until near the end of the war given they did not nothing to deliberately hurt or aid the iron throne or rebels. Catelyn does not think to bring up any sort of stipulation that says, House Freys oaths are less valid than than the ones to house to house Tully, Lords of the storm land fought against Robert and there’s no talk of them having committed treason. 

1 hour ago, Ylath's Snout said:

But that doesn't mean you reward someone that stayed neutral over lords that proved their ride-of-die-yness.

Largely the point of arranged marriages, has been used to secure the alligence of potential enemies just as it’s been used to reward the loyalty of someone else. And given the Freys really did, go all out for Robb’s war-effort, one could see Walder  showing similar appreciation if Tully showed Walder would give a similar promise, to procure Walder’s loyalty. To not try to smooth over the relationship with one of the most richest houses in his province was ridiculous on Hoster’s part. 

 

1 hour ago, Ylath's Snout said:

What do you mean?

It’s not implied that the more plentiful the family the more wards must be sent. The lord is given custody of the ward-no one says it is custom to send a ward to every familial  faction of a house. There’s no talk of Jon Arryn having to have send multiple wards if he were send Sweet Robin just to please all the families in house Lannister that would be strange. 

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1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s not implied that the more plentiful the family the more wards must be sent.

Well in practice House Frey have several different sub-Houses and kadet-branches. So favoring one with a wardship might just have blown up in Hosters face with the spurned branches holding a grudge. So to avoid that he'd have to request a ward from every branch or at the very least all the powerful ones.

7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 To not try to smooth over the relationship with one of the most richest houses in his province was ridiculous on Hoster’s part.

Maybe but like I said. overly favoring them isn't risk-free.

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Lords of the storm land fought against Robert and there’s no talk of them having committed treason.

Many of those lords changes side to Robert and the once that didn't like Connington could face repricals.

Also the main chunk of the story is years later and doesn't really focus all that much on the politics of the Stormlands so it is hard to say how the different houses were regarded.

9 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Catelyn does not think to bring up any sort of stipulation that says, House Freys oaths are less valid than than the ones to house to house Tully

Why would she do that during negotiations were the Frey had Robb by the short-hairs?

31 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I don’t get parentheses on the word neutral-that’s exactly what the Freys did

Could be argued that House Frey failed to fulfill their obligation both to lord and king making them less neutral and more double-traintors.

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On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 5:22 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

think that we may be underestimating Littlefinger's skill with a sword , he is the son of a Lord of the Vale which would means he would have training in arms from childhood and also his family fortune and status are all based on his great grandfather's skill with a sword and his grandfather and father were both Knights i believe so the family is obviously very martial so they would not have neglected Petyr's  training . Also as the ward of the Lord of the Riverlands he would have the same sword training as Edmure .

Except we don't have any example other than this of LF engaging in combat. Simply being born into a martial family and afforded training doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to get good at it. In world, just look at Sam as an example of that. In our own world, there are plenty of examples of children being taught something from a young age and simply having no aptitude for it.

19 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, I guess looking back at this thread, it just seemed odd to me that Littlefinger, who was always cunning and clever, couldn't/wouldn't think of a tactic to beat a larger, stronger opponent

I’m clever. If I get into a fight with Anthony Joshua, how far do you think my aptitude for maths and voracious reading will get me?

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

larger, stronger opponent, especially considering his romantic ideas of an underdog beating a brute with his wits, either by outmaneuvering him

He wasn't just larger and stronger, he was almost certainly also faster, more skilled and more experienced. LF was literally outclassed in every department.

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

or, poisoning his weapon so that even if he got a single scratch, Brandon would be severely injured or killed

I don't know what that would have achieved, as he would have been strung up from the nearest tree if he killed the Stark heir in such a dishonourable way. Such a tactic probably wasn't in him at that stage. He was still a romantic.

20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

even taunting him by saying he got to Catelyn first.

How would that help?!?

A bit of friendly advice, if you're getting your ass handed you in a fight at any point in the future DONT start taunting your assailant by telling them you banged their girlfriend. As a tactic, it really, really backfires!

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37 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Except we don't have any example other than this of LF engaging in combat. Simply being born into a martial family and afforded training doesn’t necessarily mean you’re going to get good at it. In world, just look at Sam as an example of that. In our own world, there are plenty of examples of children being taught something from a young age and simply having no aptitude for it.

I

that's certainly true but my point was that some posters were claiming that Littlenger was terrible at fighting because he was beaten so badly by Brandon but just because a 20 year old monster like Brandon beats your ass does not mean you can't fight . 

We don't know how good of a fighter Littlefinger is but considering he was a Lord's son and fostered at Riverrun would mean that he would have at least  received pretty extensive training . 

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13 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

that's certainly true but my point was that some posters were claiming that Littlenger was terrible at fighting because he was beaten so badly by Brandon but just because a 20 year old monster like Brandon beats your ass does not mean you can't fight

True enough, but everything we know about LF since suggests that fighting isn't his bag. Maybe the experience with Brandon turned him off the whole thing, or maybe he was never meant for it.

14 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

We don't know how good of a fighter Littlefinger is

I think we do really. We know he simply doesn't fight at all. I very much doubt he has hidden talents in that direction.

15 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

but considering he was a Lord's son and fostered at Riverrun would mean that he would have at least  received pretty extensive training

There are plenty of lords' sons who simply don't show any interest or aptitude in that regard, and choose a different path. Edwyn Frey for an example. He would have had just as many opportunities as LF, and clearly isn't a warrior. Doran Martell is another.

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1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

True enough, but everything we know about LF since suggests that fighting isn't his bag. Maybe the experience with Brandon turned him off the whole thing, or maybe he was never meant for it.

I think we do really. We know he simply doesn't fight at all. I very much doubt he has hidden talents in that direction.

There are plenty of lords' sons who simply don't show any interest or aptitude in that regard, and choose a different path. Edwyn Frey for an example. He would have had just as many opportunities as LF, and clearly isn't a warrior. Doran Martell is another.

We know that Littlefinger has not fought that we know of but we do not know if he can fight . If you were  Littlefinger wouldn't it work better for you to keep that a secret ? anyway we know he can handle a knife 

"I would have told you that there was only one knife like this at King's Landing." He grasped the blade between thumb and forefinger, drew it back over his shoulder, and threw it across the room with a practiced flick of his wrist. It struck the door and buried itself deep in the oak, quivering. "It's mine."

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59 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

We know that Littlefinger has not fought that we know of but we do not know if he can fight . If you were  Littlefinger wouldn't it work better for you to keep that a secret ? anyway we know he can handle a knife 

"I would have told you that there was only one knife like this at King's Landing." He grasped the blade between thumb and forefinger, drew it back over his shoulder, and threw it across the room with a practiced flick of his wrist. It struck the door and buried itself deep in the oak, quivering. "It's mine."

Mayhaps, but I really doubt it.

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On 9/27/2018 at 11:26 PM, Angel Eyes said:

When Littlefinger wanted to duel Brandon Stark for Catelyn's hand, why didn't he think of fighting Brandon the same way Bronn fought Ser Vardis Egen, by dodging everything, waiting for him to tire, and then stabbing him? He just sounds like he went in there with no strategy, and almost got torn to pieces. Those underdogs he looked up to got through their problems because they had a plan.

At 15 LF is not the master manipulator we see in ASOIAF.  If he had been he never would have challenged Brandon Stark to a duel as, even if he wins, Hoster is not going to allow him to marry Cat.

The very fact that he goes in with no strategy or idea how to win (or armour) should be proof enough that he has little skill, training or experience in either dueling or sword fighting in general.  And that is a part of his character throughout the series: he is cunning, sly, manipulative and given to intrigue but he avoids confrontation, preferring to use assassins or catspaws and to strike at his enemies or rivals (or benefactors) with them being any the wiser.  In brief: he relies on his wits, not his strength or skill at arms and the one time he has to rely on the latter it ends, predictably enough, very badly for him.

On 9/28/2018 at 4:32 PM, Angel Eyes said:

As the ward of a Lord Paramount, I'd think that Petyr would have training in arms.

It's a reasonable assumption but that still doesn't mean he has any aptitude for it and what we see of him in story and of Cat's recollection of the duel speaks largely to him being pretty useless with a sword.  I don't see the sly boy who was always small and relied on his wits being a natural fighter or having much interest in trying to train hard to be one.

On 9/29/2018 at 5:22 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

I think that we may be underestimating Littlefinger's skill with a sword , he is the son of a Lord of the Vale which would means he would have training in arms from childhood and also his family fortune and status are all based on his great grandfather's skill with a sword and his grandfather and father were both Knights i believe so the family is obviously very martial so they would not have neglected Petyr's  training . Also as the ward of the Lord of the Riverlands he would have the same sword training as Edmure .

LF's background as Lord of the Drearfort or Sheepshit Tower is revealed to us in ASOS or AFFC through a Sansa POV.  This is not the setting for a boy to be trained by a master of arms or Castellan.  Even if he had a semblance of training at Riverrun there is no need to try and turn him into a knight when his skills suit him far more to being a steward.  He was not trained at Riverrun to lead men in battle or to duel like a member of the nobility and the fact that he was too low in status for that world and it's benefits in large part explains his massive chip on shoulder and desire to burn down that world.

You put the quote in yourself but remember 1) Brandon is not fighting to injure Petyr - Cat specifically asks him not to harm him so Brandon is holding back not going full out, 2) Brandon gives him plenty of chances to yield and all his blows are to encourage Petyr to yield without harming him rather than to try and defeat him and risk injuring him 3) when Brandon decides to end the fight he does it immediately and without breaking a sweat. 

On 9/30/2018 at 7:31 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Well, I guess looking back at this thread, it just seemed odd to me that Littlefinger, who was always cunning and clever, couldn't/wouldn't think of a tactic to beat a larger, stronger opponent, especially considering his romantic ideas of an underdog beating a brute with his wits, either by outmaneuvering him or, poisoning his weapon so that even if he got a single scratch, Brandon would be severely injured or killed, even taunting him by saying he got to Catelyn first. 

He's 15 and fighting a duel with an adult out of love and desperation .  How reasonable is it to expect him to be a stone-cold killer using poison or concocting some master plan to defeat a vastly superior swordsman?

As to either a) poisoning the heir of Winterfell and future son-in-law of the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (who is also his foster-father to boot) or b) taunting Brandon with taking Cat's virginity (untrue in any case though he believed it) in full view of the assembled notables, serving folk and guardsmen of Riverrun thereby ruining her reputation, sullying the honour of both Houses and making himself public enemy #1, I can think of no better way to ensure his own death and that Cat utterly loathe him from that moment forward.

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21 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

anyway we know he can handle a knife 

"I would have told you that there was only one knife like this at King's Landing." He grasped the blade between thumb and forefinger, drew it back over his shoulder, and threw it across the room with a practiced flick of his wrist. It struck the door and buried itself deep in the oak, quivering. "It's mine."

I'd add, throwing a knife is a bit like being able to juggle. It's a clever trick, but not necessarily indicative of an ability to fight with anything else.

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1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I'd add, throwing a knife is a bit like being able to juggle. It's a clever trick, but not necessarily indicative of an ability to fight with anything else.

but it does mean he has a familiarity with knives and has the hand to eye coordination to throw the knife and the strength for it to bury itself "deep in the oak" , i doubt Sam could do anything remotely like that . Does it prove he's a competent swordsman ? nope,  but considering the family he comes from and the fact that he was fostered at Riverrun it's hard to believe that he would be a bad  fighter . 

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1 minute ago, Blackfish Tully said:

but it does mean he has a familiarity with knives and has the hand to eye coordination to throw the knife and the strength for it to bury itself "deep in the oak"

All true, but as you say, it could mean something, or could mean nothing.

2 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

but considering the family he comes from and the fact that he was fostered at Riverrun it's hard to believe that he would be a bad  fighter

As I and others have said, there are plenty of people with such an upbringing who never grew up to be decent fighters.

It's not utterly implausible that he knows how to fight, but I just think it's out of character for him. The whole point of LF is that at a young age he believed in the idea of the plucky hero winning by honourable means, and had these illusions completely crushed. He moved away from those sorts of methods towards schemes and plots.

I would also be a bit annoyed as a reader if he ends up in some sort of situation and suddenly breaks out the Bruce Lee moves. It would just strike me as a bit silly.

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28 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

All true, but as you say, it could mean something, or could mean nothing.

 

that's true but for some reason it makes me think that GRRM put that in there just to give us a idea that maybe Littlefinger is more than he seems 

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51 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I'd add, throwing a knife is a bit like being able to juggle. It's a clever trick, but not necessarily indicative of an ability to fight with anything else.

 

It would also fit in with his acquired wisdom of how to deal with those who you cannot best man to man. LF always attacks from a respectable distance when he's able.

 

43 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

It's not utterly implausible that he knows how to fight, but I just think it's out of character for him. The whole point of LF is that at a young age he believed in the idea of the plucky hero winning by honourable means, and had these illusions completely crushed. He moved away from those sorts of methods towards schemes and plots.

I would also be a bit annoyed as a reader if he ends up in some sort of situation and suddenly breaks out the Bruce Lee moves. It would just strike me as a bit silly.

 

Juxtaposed next to the way they dispatched a sorry, sobbing LF in the show, it would be downright clownish. I'd expect more martial prowess from Patchface.

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22 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

We know that Littlefinger has not fought that we know of but we do not know if he can fight . If you were  Littlefinger wouldn't it work better for you to keep that a secret ? anyway we know he can handle a knife 

"I would have told you that there was only one knife like this at King's Landing." He grasped the blade between thumb and forefinger, drew it back over his shoulder, and threw it across the room with a practiced flick of his wrist. It struck the door and buried itself deep in the oak, quivering. "It's mine."

Littlefinger can throw a knife now that he is in his thirties but it doesn't follow that he had that ability when he was fifteen years old and challenged Brandon Stark to a duel.  Perhaps he picked up a few self defense skills after the humiliation he felt after being sent away from Riverrun.

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