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Angel Eyes

Why didn't Littlefinger try the Bronn approach in dueling?

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24 minutes ago, Lluewhyn said:

This argument is getting ridiculously circular.

Everyone: Here are the practical, textual, and thematic reasons why it doesn't make sense that Petyr has more than a cursory knowledge of weapon training. Sure, it's POSSIBLE, but extremely unlikely.

 

why is it extremely unlikely? Petyr spent years being fostered at Riverrun where he would have trained with Edmure under Riverrun's Master of Arms. So at the very  least he spent years training with a sword under an expert teacher . Does not mean he is a good or great swordsman but to say it's extremely unlikely that he has a cursory knowledge of weapons training just seems really hard to believe. 

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1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

Petyr may be just as awful as Sam or he may be merely competent or he might be pretty good . At this point we have no idea but we do know that he would have trained with Riverrun's Master at Arms alongside Edmure while he was Hoster Tully's ward . 

 

Petyr, though I doubt it, may well have once been a promising student but the adult Petyr is not going to be good. Swordsmanship, like most skills, requires regular practice. The better warriors in the series, at every age, spend a lot of time honing their abilities, that is pretty much their full time job. Littlefinger has worked his entire life, the same time and energy someone like Bronn or Jaime has spent on their fighting has seen Littlefinger learn and master finance, trade and politicking as well as managing multiple whore houses. He simply has not had the free time in his adult life to be good.

Had Tyrion been able bodied or Sam willing to try neither would be as learned as they are as they would have spent most of their time practising. There are going to be no merchants, farmers or bankers who are great warriors because they have spent their time spent time on other areas. 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Lluewhyn said:

 

I think no one's convincing anyone else here at this point? Besides, the original post was about using nimble moves to circle around Brynden, which just wasn't going to work. I think it's a bit of a stretch leaning towards fantasy cliches that GRRM was able to get away with it using two very skilled warriors like Bronn and Oberyn as it was. That's a serious drop of writing quality to suggest that someone who has not been textually stated to have any fighting ability starts pulling ninja moves.

 

 

 

 

Well, not just nimble moves, any sort of plan to kill Brandon in a duel. Even with Littlefinger being as romantic as he had been as a youth, he was enthralled with stories of an underdog beating a brute with his wits and this could be right out of those stories.

The comment about taunting Brandon I got as an idea from Star Wars, where there is a tactic called Dun Moch, where a combatant would taunt his opponent in order to make him lose concentration and lead him to making a mistake that can be exploited, a method of dominating the opponent’s will.

It just seemed out of character for Littlefinger, even as a boy, to not have a plan and doing everything he could to win when going up against a Northman like Brandon.

Edited by Angel Eyes

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15 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

It just seemed out of character for Littlefinger, even as a boy, to not have a plan and doing everything he could to win when going up against a Northman like Brandon.

What exactly do you know about Littlefinger's personality as a boy?

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32 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

What exactly do you know about Littlefinger's personality as a boy?

Exactly. From what we've read, it looks as if Petyr Baelish's outlook changed dramatically as a result of that duel. The idealistic romantic boy was replaced by the bitter, vengeance-seeking, backstabbing man. Frankly, had Petyr been a nasty little sneak from the get-go, it's unlikely that Cat would have even liked him nor Lysa fallen in love with him.

Which is why, for the 10,000th time, that young Petyr didn't try "the Bronn maneuver."

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12 minutes ago, zandru said:

Exactly. From what we've read, it looks as if Petyr Baelish's outlook changed dramatically as a result of that duel. The idealistic romantic boy was replaced by the bitter, vengeance-seeking, backstabbing man. Frankly, had Petyr been a nasty little sneak from the get-go, it's unlikely that Cat would have even liked him nor Lysa fallen in love with him.

 

Yep, I'll agree with that being kind of the whole big thematic point there. Petyr Baelish *was* pretty similar to Sansa, and let the stories get to his head. He bought into the whole "Young nimble hero dances around the big stupid brute" stories and realized that it doesn't work like that in real life, and had a major personality change because of that. That's a pretty explicit part of his arc.

I suppose he could have tried to be crafty and have a "plan", but not sure what kind of plan that would be. As others have stated, any outside the box tricks like poison, taunting, traps, etc. would not only be not guaranteed to work, but would be guaranteed to get him strung up afterwards whether he won or lost. He's pretty much limited to his martial skill and physical ability against Brynden's, and he got predictably owned.

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Petyr, though I doubt it, may well have once been a promising student but the adult Petyr is not going to be good. Swordsmanship, like most skills, requires regular practice. The better warriors in the series, at every age, spend a lot of time honing their abilities, that is pretty much their full time job. Littlefinger has worked his entire life, the same time and energy someone like Bronn or Jaime has spent on their fighting has seen Littlefinger learn and master finance, trade and politicking as well as managing multiple whore houses. He simply has not had the free time in his adult life to be good.

Had Tyrion been able bodied or Sam willing to try neither would be as learned as they are as they would have spent most of their time practising. There are going to be no merchants, farmers or bankers who are great warriors because they have spent their time spent time on other areas. 

 

 

This is all probably true. I was responding to the posters that were stating that Petyr would have no or little training when fighting Brandon which considering he was the ward of the Lord of the Riverlands would be very hard to believe . He would have spent years training with Riverrun's Master at Arms and probably would have spent time learning from Blackfish . 

the fact that he was beaten easily by Brandon does not mean anything , you can be a professional boxer or MMA guy who's trained for years and still get knocked at in the first round by a better fighter . 

Would Petyr continue his sword fighting training as an adult ? probably not but there is a chance he continued practicing with a knife considering how easily he handles one .  

 

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On 9/28/2018 at 12:26 AM, Angel Eyes said:

When Littlefinger wanted to duel Brandon Stark for Catelyn's hand, why didn't he think of fighting Brandon the same way Bronn fought Ser Vardis Egen, by dodging everything, waiting for him to tire, and then stabbing him?

Yes, why Littlefinger didn't think of being faster, more agile and more skilled than his opponent?

Or, alternatively, why didn't he try the Gregor Clegane strategy, i. e. being very big and very strong? I bet that would have given ol' Brandon a pause, too. But no.

Weird, I say.

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1 hour ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Would Petyr continue his sword fighting training as an adult ? probably not but there is a chance he continued practicing with a knife considering how easily he handles one .  

This brings up a good point. Had Petyr thrown himself into arms training after his defeat/recovery, like Sandor did after his brother tried to burn him to death, Baelish might have actually become a potential threat.

But this would have been the opposite of his actual arc. By remaining the weak incompetent who's only good with numbers, Littlefinger can credibly be the meek subservient, no threat to anyone that he appears to be. Meanwhile, he's practicing deception, blackmail, bribery, assassinations - oh, and privately getting good with a shiv. It's one of the few weapons that actually fit his adult character.

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4 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Nobody recalls Petyr's sword training

We agree on this much at least

4 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

because it just never comes up and frankly Lord's sons training at arms when they are children in Westeros would be such a common thing that it's really not a big deal that anybody would think of it

Except that it's entirely relevant to the duel that Catelyn remembers so vividly.  Littlefinger then spends years in KL where he never touches a sword.  You're just making assumptions.  If GRRM wants to make LF a swordsman he just needs a few lines of ink.  Instead all his characterization of LF, both as child and man, is as a sly plotter using his wits not brawn, breeding or swordsmanship - all of which he lacks.

5 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

I don't think you understand how the whole "ward" thing works and why it's such a big deal. Taking someone as a ward means that you are raising them with your children , in other words Hoster would be raising Petyr as his own son and that would mean he would get all the training that Edmure would get . Unless you think that the 12 year old Petyr could tell Hoster Tully and his Master at Arms thanks but no thanks on the training . I'm not saying that Petyr is a master swordsman but what i am saying is that he would have had years of training with a Master of Arms just like every other son of a Lord in Westeros

Actually I don't think you understand it.  LF is effectively a jumped up hedge knight's grandson.  Hoster Tully is not going to equate LF with his own blood or train him to be Lord of a feudal province because in a hierarchical society he is far beneath these things.  The penny dropped for LF when he presumed to aim for Cat, an unthinkable match given his much lower status and he was shipped back off to Sheepshit Tower for sullying Hoster's daughters.

However much training he had it didn't stick.  You can keep saying he had years of training but I see no reason to assume it.  He was not being trained to lead men in battle as Edmure was.  And he was closer in age to Cat and Lysa than to Edmure so he grew up with the girls, not practicing in the yard with Edmure the way Robb and Jon did.  Different strokes for different folks.

5 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Samwell Tarly did receive years of training with various Master at Arms just like every other Lords son in Westeros . He just happens to be so bad at it that his own father threatens to murder him and ends up sending his own heir to the Wall . 

Petyr may be just as awful as Sam or he may be merely competent or he might be pretty good . At this point we have no idea but we do know that he would have trained with Riverrun's Master at Arms alongside Edmure while he was Hoster Tully's ward . 

I'm sure you got my point but to be clear: training on it's own does not make you any good.  You need some aptitude, interest and determination.  Given it's physical and dangerous I can quite see LF having no interest in it.  Sam is what happens when you force someone who lacks aptitude, interest and determination to continue at something they loathe, LF is what happens when you don't force them, i.e. they simply avoid it.

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2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

We agree on this much at least

Except that it's entirely relevant to the duel that Catelyn remembers so vividly.  Littlefinger then spends years in KL where he never touches a sword.  You're just making assumptions. 

it's funny how you accuse me of making assumptions and then you make a huge assumptions . Please tell me how you can possibly  know that Littlefinger never touches a sword in KL ? are you George Martin? If not then there is zero chance you know this . 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

Actually I don't think you understand it.  LF is effectively a jumped up hedge knight's grandson.  Hoster Tully is not going to equate LF with his own blood or train him to be Lord of a feudal province because in a hierarchical society he is far beneath these things.  The penny dropped for LF when he presumed to aim for Cat, an unthinkable match given his much lower status and he was shipped back off to Sheepshit Tower for sullying Hoster's daughters.

 

Once again you are just making assumptions , how do you know what Hoster did or did not do in relation to Petyr ? 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

However much training he had it didn't stick.  You can keep saying he had years of training but I see no reason to assume it.  He was not being trained to lead men in battle as Edmure was.  And he was closer in age to Cat and Lysa than to Edmure so he grew up with the girls, not practicing in the yard with Edmure the way Robb and Jon did.  Different strokes for different folks.

 

So while Edmure was in the yard training Petyr would be hanging out with the girls ? that's just ridiculous on so many levels . 

 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'm sure you got my point but to be clear: training on it's own does not make you any good.  You need some aptitude, interest and determination.  Given it's physical and dangerous I can quite see LF having no interest in it.  Sam is what happens when you force someone who lacks aptitude, interest and determination to continue at something they loathe, LF is what happens when you don't force them, i.e. they simply avoid it.

Never said he was any good . But to believe that Petyr would have any choice in the matter is just a complete misunderstanding of how this all works . Petyr as Hoster's ward would be expected to practice at arms every day just like Edmure . Petyr cannot just decide he does not want to do it or he risks being sent home . 

Edited by Blackfish Tully

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On 10/8/2018 at 7:18 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

it's funny how you accuse me of making assumptions and then you make a huge assumptions . Please tell me how you can possibly  know that Littlefinger never touches a sword in KL ? are you George Martin? If not then there is zero chance you know this . 

Show me otherwise.  We call this "put up or shut up".

On 10/8/2018 at 7:18 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

Once again you are just making assumptions , how do you know what Hoster did or did not do in relation to Petyr ?

How do you?  Same point as before: you have the novels so show me what you claim.

On 10/8/2018 at 7:18 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

So while Edmure was in the yard training Petyr would be hanging out with the girls ? that's just ridiculous on so many levels . 

Bran does not train with Robb and Jon because of the age difference.  Petyr is older than Edmure so they would not train together in the yard or take schooling together.  It's all about the age of the children.  This is not hard to grasp, however ridiculous you find it.  Cat, Lysa and Petyr are closer in age and they do play together, Cat recollecting the mischiefs Petyr got up to and the kissing games they played.  Now that, that's in the novels.

See the difference?

On 10/8/2018 at 7:18 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

Never said he was any good . But to believe that Petyr would have any choice in the matter is just a complete misunderstanding of how this all works . Petyr as Hoster's ward would be expected to practice at arms every day just like Edmure . Petyr cannot just decide he does not want to do it or he risks being sent home . 

Now that's just one big assumption isn't it?  One might insist that Tyrion spent every day being trained alongside Jaime if one arbitrarily decided this was "how it works".  One could even insist that as this is so commonplace and such an immutable law that there would be no need to have either Tyrion or any one else reflect on this in even a fleeting moment, however much out of character it would appear.  One could just assume it.

One would not be right however.

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2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Show me otherwise.  We call this "put up or shut up".

 

You are the one who said that Littlefinger had never touched a sword in KL so why should i put up anything ?  I have no idea what he did or did not do in KL , you are the one who is making a statement of fact based on zero evidence not me . 

 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Bran does not train with Robb and Jon because of the age difference.  Petyr is older than Edmure so they would not train together in the yard or take schooling together.  It's all about the age of the children.  This is not hard to grasp, however ridiculous you find it.  Cat, Lysa and Petyr are closer in age and they do play together, Cat recollecting the mischiefs Petyr got up to and the kissing games they played.  Now that, that's in the novels.

See the difference?

 

Cat and Lysa are girls and Petyr is a boy , boys train at arms and girls learn how to run a household , how are you having trouble understanding this pretty simple concept ?

 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 

Bran does not train with Robb and Jon because of the age difference. 

Bran still trains at arms right? Rickon when he gets older will train as well right? Just because Petyr is younger does not not disqualify him from training . 

 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Now that's just one big assumption isn't it? 

A Lord's son practicing at arms with a Master at Arms is really not much of an assumption as it is simply a matter of fact for almost all Lord's sons in Westeros .  Why would Petyr be the one guy not receive training  ? Petyr comes from a fighting family , Riverrun has a Master at Arms who's job is to train Hoster Tully's sons and wards  and Riverrun would have  plenty of training equipment and Petyr has plenty of time on his hands so why would he not be training . Give me one reason that Hoster would neglect to train Petyr ? I simply cannot understand why you are making a big deal out of something that seems to be a pretty common practice for Lord's sons in Westeros .   

Edited by Blackfish Tully

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42 minutes ago, Ylath's Snout said:

How is this thread still a thing?

Yeah, I though we'd agreed that an even better strategy for young Petyr than Bronn's was the Gregor Clegane gambit: you grow to be near 8 feet tall and 30 stone of solid muscle, then become expert in arms. EZ Peezy! Funny thing Petyr never thought of it once he'd issued his challenge to Brandon.

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23 minutes ago, zandru said:

I though we'd agreed that an even better strategy for young Petyr than Bronn's was the Gregor Clegane gambit

Hey now, I'm all for the Robogadra stratagem in the Petyr v Brandon fight. Just become a cybernetic spoof of Robocop from Ireland. Robopetyr could have easily taken down Brandon with the one two punch of his fooking hammer and a dead-on Marge Simpson impression.

Because frankly that makes about as much sense as Petyr having the skill to do what Bronn did when we are given no indication that he had any aptitude for sword fighting back then.

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On 10/11/2018 at 4:09 PM, Blackfish Tully said:

You are the one who said that Littlefinger had never touched a sword in KL so why should i put up anything ?  I have no idea what he did or did not do in KL , you are the one who is making a statement of fact based on zero evidence not me . 

 

Cat and Lysa are girls and Petyr is a boy , boys train at arms and girls learn how to run a household , how are you having trouble understanding this pretty simple concept ?

 

Bran still trains at arms right? Rickon when he gets older will train as well right? Just because Petyr is younger does not not disqualify him from training . 

 

A Lord's son practicing at arms with a Master at Arms is really not much of an assumption as it is simply a matter of fact for almost all Lord's sons in Westeros .  Why would Petyr be the one guy not receive training  ? Petyr comes from a fighting family , Riverrun has a Master at Arms who's job is to train Hoster Tully's sons and wards  and Riverrun would have  plenty of training equipment and Petyr has plenty of time on his hands so why would he not be training . Give me one reason that Hoster would neglect to train Petyr ? I simply cannot understand why you are making a big deal out of something that seems to be a pretty common practice for Lord's sons in Westeros .   

So you got nothing?  Ok.  We all knew that.

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Sorry if I am reviving a thread that should die (though I do love joining in a discussion where people doggedly fight against the obvious answer,) but the answer is fairly simple. Peter was incapable of doing so. His opponent was faster, stronger, more experienced, more skilled, more physically capable. End of story.

 

Watch an Average Joe try to hit a major league pitcher, or an Average Joe try to stop a pro soccer player from scoring, or an Average Joe try to tackle an NFL running back and you have your answer. Quite simply he lacked the physical ability to do so.

Edited by TheMiddleHero

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I saw George Foreman completely dominate Joe Frazier knocking him down 6 times before they mercifully stopped the fight , does that mean that Joe Frazier was a bad fighter or did not have any training?

 Just because Petyr lost badly to Brandon means nothing , how many 15 year olds would have had a chance against the 20 year old Brandon? Plenty of UFC fights end in one round knockouts , does that mean that the loser is awful or just that he or she ran into better fighter.

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