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•Brandon Ice Eyes

Walder Frey’s Ambitions For House Frey?

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Walder Frey’s Ambitions?

So what exactly were Walder Frey’s ambitions for house Frey prior to the war of the five kings. Merely to get his house respected by others as impossible as it was and is now or merely just make as many people as possible have Frey blood in them?

Edited by •Brandon Ice Eyes
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Increase their already considerable wealth.  Marry his children to other good families.   I don't think the Freys were disrespected openly.  Certainly not as looked down upon as crannogmen, northmen, ironborn, and Dornish.   The families who looked down on the Freys were likely motivated by envy.  That is how I see the damnable Tullys and their attitude towards the Freys.

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There was a really great thread on here a few years ago that examined this issue in-depth.  Bear in mind I'm paraphrasing from memory, but essentially it was saying that there's textual evidence to support the fact that the Frey household is vastly overpopulated, and doesn't have the resources to support the family through the coming winter. 

So the advantages you list would still be advantages.  But the biggest advantage is that it's one less mouth to feed.  Other houses would be responsible for their upkeep.  That's why he's trying to get his daughters married off and his male relatives squired out.  Why it seems impossible to make a deal with the Freys without marrying a few of them. 

I've not made the argument as convincingly as the original poster did, but out of all the theories I've heard, that's the one I like the best. 

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8 hours ago, •Brandon Ice Eyes said:

Walder Frey’s Ambitions?

So what exactly were Walder Frey’s ambitions for house Frey prior to the war of the five kings. Merely to get his house respected by others as impossible as it was and is now or merely just make as many people as possible have Frey blood in them?

Safety and security.  Same as any house. 

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2 hours ago, I S**t Gold said:

There was a really great thread on here a few years ago that examined this issue in-depth.  Bear in mind I'm paraphrasing from memory, but essentially it was saying that there's textual evidence to support the fact that the Frey household is vastly overpopulated, and doesn't have the resources to support the family through the coming winter. 

It really is not. Walder Frey feeds and houses a 4,000 army. His children are not a problem and given that the majority of his children and grandchildren were born before the previous winter (infact, logically speaking, there will have been Freys who have died since then) it can not be a problem. An extra 10 or so Freys is not going to be a problem for a Lord who is regarded a the most powerful in the Riverlands. 

I'd love to hear the supporting evidence though but two obvious points that contradict this

  • Out of Walder's many sons only one of them over 18 is not married (or with the citadel/faith). Sons marrying increases the amount of Freys at the Twins, daughters usually live elsewhere. He'd not have married all these sons if he was worried about space. 
  • Walder was pissed that he was not given Robin to foster, he clearly is not averse to having more mouths to feed.
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So the advantages you list would still be advantages.  But the biggest advantage is that it's one less mouth to feed.  Other houses would be responsible for their upkeep.  That's why he's trying to get his daughters married off and his male relatives squired out. 

Males being 'squired' out is the norm, it is how they receive their education. House Lannister is the wealthiest in the realm, Jaime was sent to Crakehall to squire, Tywin and Joanna were sent to Kings Landing while Kevan was with the Reynes while Tywin's twin uncles were both sent to squire for important nobles. 

 

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Why it seems impossible to make a deal with the Freys without marrying a few of them. 

Can you name many other major alliance that did not involve a marriage or ward deal?

 

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11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'd love to hear the supporting evidence though but two obvious points that contradict this 

  • Out of Walder's many sons only one of them over 18 is not married (or with the citadel/faith). Sons marrying increases the amount of Freys at the Twins, daughters usually live elsewhere. He'd not have married all these sons if he was worried about space. 
  • Walder was pissed that he was not given Robin to foster, he clearly is not averse to having more mouths to feed.

All of your points are sensible and wise.  Like I said, this seemed like a cool theory, but personally I'm not qualified to guarantee it's true or false, and definitely not qualified to explain it as well as the poster did.  I like it, but I also like other well thought out theories I don't believe to be true.  I agree that all his sons being married directly contradicts the theory I was referring to.  I would say Robin in particular opens up the Vale revenue streams though, so that desire could work for the lack of resources theory or contradict it.  That's one mouth that pays for itself.  Also you're right in that squiring out happens regularly and that great house alliances are generally cemented by marriage.  We meet a lot of Frey squires and a lot of Frey brides compared to most houses, but I suppose I've been overlooking the simpler explanation for this which is there's a lot of Freys. 

I tried to find the post I was referring to or a version of the same theory and couldn't last night after posting.  That maybe implies it ultimately was discredited.  I did find a lot of stuff that made the opposite point.  I'd underestimated the size of the Frey lands, which implies I've underestimated the amount of food the Freys could have stored for winter. 

Thanks for the reply. 

 

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14 hours ago, I S**t Gold said:

There was a really great thread on here a few years ago that examined this issue in-depth.  Bear in mind I'm paraphrasing from memory, but essentially it was saying that there's textual evidence to support the fact that the Frey household is vastly overpopulated, and doesn't have the resources to support the family through the coming winter. 

So the advantages you list would still be advantages.  But the biggest advantage is that it's one less mouth to feed.  Other houses would be responsible for their upkeep.  That's why he's trying to get his daughters married off and his male relatives squired out.  Why it seems impossible to make a deal with the Freys without marrying a few of them. 

I've not made the argument as convincingly as the original poster did, but out of all the theories I've heard, that's the one I like the best. 

Freys are rich. That's why most houses despise them if they haven't before. Sending a few dozen family members away won't make a difference. Its pretty much strength through marriages/fostering. He doesn't even remember the specifics of his family tree. I honestly think there's a couple of Freys trying to bridge (heh) the growing tensions between them all.

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