What to do with Harrenhal?

[honorable men]

I don't know understand why the Targaryen Kings didn't keep it under the crown after the houses couldn't maintain it. Not much of a reward to a new house with no money for the upkeep. If the crown doesn't want it, then split the lands/income to all the nearby houses and let Harrenhal become a ruin like OldStones 2.0

 

(or have like 1 house for each tower hehehe jk)

 

Or give it back to the Iron Born and let them deal with it, it should take up their time trying to figure it out while also preventing them from reaving, plundering and raping for a couple weeks. Hey there's some greenland for you... Stop complaining...

[Moiraine Sedai]

Leaving it in ruins is the reminder of what happens to people who defy the Targaryens.  The expense is another reason to leave it be. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

10 minutes ago, honorable men said:

I don't know understand why the Targaryen Kings didn't keep it under the crown after the houses couldn't maintain it. Not much of a reward to a new house with no money for the upkeep. If the crown doesn't want it, then split the lands/income to all the nearby houses and let Harrenhal become a ruin like OldStones 2.0

 

(or have like 1 house for each tower hehehe jk)

 

I'd imagine one of the reasons would be that the Targs who oversaw Harrenhal's various-changing-of-owners would have wanted to reap whatever resources they could from the castle, by way of taxes and such.

Black Harren's fortress presents a cacophony of natural bounties which could offer the likes of the Whents or Lothstons a great deal of financial and resource based trade - in turn allowing the Dragons to skim a nice 20% for the Iron Throne, without all the hassle of having to maintain the bloody place. Imagine the lecky bill!? 

That said, I wonder if any of the more militarily minded Targaryens ever put serious consideration into turning Harrenhal into their own personal army barracks? While the upkeep and maintenance fees would still be ungodly, such a gargantuan castle could be useful for both training and housing one's host.

The sheer size of the Castle, along with it's place of the map and the abundance of surrounding natural resources, could perhaps help to establish a "standing army" type of deal.

 

[The hairy bear]

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Leaving it in ruins is the reminder of what happens to people who defy the Targaryens.  The expense is another reason to leave it be. 

It's worth noting that the castle has been left abandoned for some long periods of time. First for some decades between House Towers and House Strong, then for a couple of decades more between the execution of Larys Strong and the rise of Lucas Lothson.

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

The sheer size of the Castle, along with it's place of the map and the abundance of surrounding natural resources, could perhaps help to establish a "standing army" type of deal.

Professional standing armies appeared in Europe during the 17th century. Martin used much earlier periods as his inspiration.

 

 

[Morte]

3 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

That said, I wonder if any of the more militarily minded Targaryens ever put serious consideration into turning Harrenhal into their own personal army barracks? While the upkeep and maintenance fees would still be ungodly, such a gargantuan castle could be useful for both training and housing one's host.

The sheer size of the Castle, along with it's place of the map and the abundance of surrounding natural resources, could perhaps help to establish a "standing army" type of deal.

The feudal society of Westeros doesn't have standing armies yet, so - while indeed being quite a nice place for something like a big garrison - no one could use it for it. If however Daenerys would bring her Unsullied, and if they survive the fight against the Others as "the Unsullied", Harrenhal would indeed would make a fine head quarter for them. In fact, the only thing that can effectively man it's walls is a legion, so it seems to be made for the Unsullied.

14 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Professional standing armies appeared in Europe during the 17th century. Martin used much earlier periods as his inspiration.

Professional standing armies appeared in Europe around the first century BC (development toward this started earlier, of course), the Unsullied were highly inspired by this particular standing army (with some reminiscences of the hoplites), so I wouldn't be surprised if they turn up as garrisoned at Harrenhal.

[Leo of House Cartel]

1 minute ago, The hairy bear said:

Professional standing armies appeared in Europe during the 17th century. Martin used much earlier periods as his inspiration.

Be that as it may, I was more considering the possibility that a militarily focused Targaryen - like Maekar or Daeron I - may have flirted with the idea of turning Harrenhal into a barracks for their own army. 

A Harrenhal standing army could perhaps be like a giant, Dragon-propaganda-filled version of the Free Cities who use Unsullied as guards.

Hell, one can easily imagine the likes of Bittersteel - if he ever gained control of Westeros - seeing the possibilities Harrenhal could offer for housing and training a whole new generation of Golden Company.

[Leo of House Cartel]

2 minutes ago, Morte said:

The feudal society of Westeros doesn't have standing armies yet, so - while indeed being quite a nice place for something like a big garrison - no one could use it for it. If however Daenerys would bring her Unsullied, and if they survive the fight against the Others as "the Unsullied", Harrenhal would indeed would make a fine head quarter for them. In fact, the only thing that can effectively man it's walls is a legion, so it seems to be made for the Unsullied.

Yeah, the maintenance of the place really is the kicker here.

Using Unsullied to man the castle would be very fitting. Dany could use Harrenhal's somewhat-central location on the map as a "police/fire/rescue" station-type-of-deal.

I wonder what the likes of Grey Worm might make of the God's Eye? If an Unsullied were to come across a Weirwood, and perhaps hear a voice, would some attribute it to their mystical deity lady?

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

5 hours ago, honorable men said:

I don't know understand why the Targaryen Kings didn't keep it under the crown after the houses couldn't maintain it. Not much of a reward to a new house with no money for the upkeep. If the crown doesn't want it, then split the lands/income to all the nearby houses and let Harrenhal become a ruin like OldStones 2.0

 

(or have like 1 house for each tower hehehe jk)

 

Or give it back to the Iron Born and let them deal with it, it should take up their time trying to figure it out while also preventing them from reaving, plundering and raping for a couple weeks. Hey there's some greenland for you... Stop complaining...

The didn't the gave it to the Riverland's paramount the Tullys .

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Harrenhal has rich lands and incomes and Harrentown was as big as some cities, at least at one point in time. I imagine Jon Con and (f)Aegon will dangle Harrenhal as a reward to a loyal man of the Golden Company who helps to achieve a pivotal victory. It's not like Baelish is in a position to defend it as his own. No matter how ugly, cursed or hard to maintain it is men will always want it, especially if they currently have no lands or castle of their own. Plus there is the whole machismo factor in having the largest castle in Westeros. So I don't see any lord who is given Harrenhal and it's lands knocking it down to build something smaller. That in itself would be very expensive endeavor. 

What's really hurt Harrenhal is that no family has held it long enough to fill it with their progeny. Say Harrenhal had a lord like Walder Frey, the family would have a better chance to fill it and make use of it's space in a few generations. Whether there is really a curse that prevents this from happening...self fulfilled prophecies are a thing.

[Morte]

9 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Using Unsullied to man the castle would be very fitting. Dany could use Harrenhal's somewhat-central location on the map as a "police/fire/rescue" station-type-of-deal.

Yes, especially as Missandre pointed out that the Unsullied can be used as police and building squad in peace times (just as the roman legions were). In this case Harrenhal would make a really good head quarter.

9 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I wonder what the likes of Grey Worm might make of the God's Eye? If an Unsullied were to come across a Weirwood, and perhaps hear a voice, would some attribute it to their mystical deity lady?

Good question. If they hear whispers directed to them, it's not unlikely. We know little about the Lady of Spears, but people tend to attribute things they can not understand to their gods, so - yes?

[Stormking902]

Harrenhal should have been used as a barracks to hold the brand new royal army like Joffrey Baratheon suggested should be formed, the crown depending soley on its bannerman providing troops when KL is in need isnt the brightest idea.

Yes training and arming an army is very costly but if you kept the number of crown troops at lets say 10000 troops its expense the Iron Throne can manage, and then you always have a 10k professional army at your disposal to use against enemys of the crown. Imagine RR if the Targaryans already had 10k trained troops in the Riverlands, Hoster would never throw in with the rebels and the Freys would probably join the loyalists immediately in fear of angering the Iron Throne. Also with these 10k troops you could stop the Vale from marching down their mountains into the Riverlands. 

 

My final point is 10k TRAINED troops like the GC are a game changer these are not smallfolk who are armed in war times these are men trained day and night on the crowns expense to be elite soldiers come war time. 

[Bowen 747]

The cost.  The cost is what kept the castle from being rebuilt to its former glory.  That and obsolescence.  There is a lesson here.  No matter the thickness of its walls, Harrenhal was not a match for the dragons.  It would have been silly for anyone to rebuilt the castle and thinking it would defend against the dragons.  

There is charm to a ruined castle.  It was also a thinly veiled threat to Rickard and Brandon Stark.  Do you think it was coincidence that the great tournament was held at Harrenhal?  Rhaegar and his allies wanted to show the Starks and their co-conspirators what could happen if they dared to mess with the dragons.  Winterfell will suffer a meltdown.  But Rhaegar was foolish in this because he didn't have a single dragon to his name.  This might lead us to theorize that Rhaegar was trying to hatch a dragon at the Tower of Joy and his intent was to sacrifice the virgin Lyanna Stark.  It all went kablooey because Lyanna was all ice and not a virgin by a country mile (Mance + Lyanna).  The fire ceremony didn't work for whatever reason.  Rhaegar is not Daenerys, in truth.  He didn't have the magic touch.  

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Keep it how it is to show the power of House Targaryen to any would be traitors. 

[zandru]

The cost of upkeep for something that huge would be a problem, and I really don't fancy seeing it as a humongous breeding ground for Old Walder Frey's hyperactive c*ck. He'd take it as a challenge to fill with Freys and by-blows; you know it.

The central location would make Harrenhal a good place to hold kingdom-wide tourneys, like the one that caused so much trouble. Kind of like an Olympic stadium. Or like Chaco Canyon, which appears to have been a sacred place, not continuously occupied, to which people would travel at various times for ceremonies.

Harrenhal will have vast importance in the next few books as a rallying place and refuge for the remaining live humans. Plus, it's a short ways to the Isle of Faces, and I foresee that people will really want to get any help they can from the Children of the Forest.

[The_Eagle_Lord19]

Harrenhall is a very seductive lordship excluding the castle it's self. The idea of a very militant targ prince that wasn't an heir taking it is very interesting. If he became say the prince of harrenhall in a perfectly strategic place in the center of the riverlands it would be very good for the royal family. House it with several knights and make it a center for training soldiers and what it allows them to do is march any where quicker.

[Annalee]

On 9/29/2018 at 2:38 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Leaving it in ruins is the reminder of what happens to people who defy the Targaryens.  The expense is another reason to leave it be. 

 

10 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The cost.  The cost is what kept the castle from being rebuilt to its former glory.  That and obsolescence.  There is a lesson here.  No matter the thickness of its walls, Harrenhal was not a match for the dragons.  It would have been silly for anyone to rebuilt the castle and thinking it would defend against the dragons.  

There is charm to a ruined castle.  It was also a thinly veiled threat to Rickard and Brandon Stark.  Do you think it was coincidence that the great tournament was held at Harrenhal?  Rhaegar and his allies wanted to show the Starks and their co-conspirators what could happen if they dared to mess with the dragons.  Winterfell will suffer a meltdown.  But Rhaegar was foolish in this because he didn't have a single dragon to his name.  This might lead us to theorize that Rhaegar was trying to hatch a dragon at the Tower of Joy and his intent was to sacrifice the virgin Lyanna Stark.  It all went kablooey because Lyanna was all ice and not a virgin by a country mile (Mance + Lyanna).  The fire ceremony didn't work for whatever reason.  Rhaegar is not Daenerys, in truth.  He didn't have the magic touch.  

 

6 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

Keep it how it is to show the power of House Targaryen to any would be traitors. 

Agree

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Maybe it will become a massive red temple for R'hllor followers in Westeros. Since it was baptized in fire and all that.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On ‎9‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:10 PM, honorable men said:

I don't know understand why the Targaryen Kings didn't keep it under the crown after the houses couldn't maintain it.

Because the cost of maintaining it would then have to be adopted by the crown. If it can’t be supported by its own lands, it would have to be supported by crown finances, which are needed elsewhere. Much better to give it to someone else and make them try to make a go of it.

That being said, I’m not at all certain that the downfall of any of its occupants has been directly contributable to the cost of Harrenhall’s upkeep. Littlefinger mentions that issue, and Lady Whent clearly struggled to maintain it, but most previous occupants, as far as we can tell, seem to have got along all right, and their fall has been for other reasons.

Hoare’s – BBQ

Qoherys – killed off during a rebellion.

Harroway – Killed off by Maegor.

Towers – Died out due to lack of heirs.

Strong – Died out in the Dance.

Lothston – Killed off by Maekar.

Whent – Died off recently.

None of them seem to have gone broke. Lady Whent appeared to be close to it by the end, but before the rebellion they seemed to be doing ok.

[Loose Bolt]

Are u sure that Maekar wiped out Lothstons? My theory is that they were allies and enforcers of Bloodraven and so real reason for their fall was his exile to the wall by Aegon V. For instance 2nd Blackfyre rebellion was smashed by Bloodraven, Maekar and Mad Danelle.

So I think that as long Lord Rivers was around Lothstons were safe but when their patron lost his power all their and his enemies got free hands from Aegon V and wiped them out.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

11 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

Are u sure that Maekar wiped out Lothstons? My theory is that they were allies and enforcers of Bloodraven and so real reason for their fall was his exile to the wall by Aegon V. For instance 2nd Blackfyre rebellion was smashed by Bloodraven, Maekar and Mad Danelle.

So I think that as long Lord Rivers was around Lothstons were safe but when their patron lost his power all their and his enemies got free hands from Aegon V and wiped them out.

Well, all we know is that Lady Lothston was brought down by Maekar due to her dabbling in necromancy etc (at least that's the story). Blackraven's exile comes later.

Maekar wasn't involved in ending the second rebellion, though BR and Lothston were.

13 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

So I think that as long Lord Rivers was around Lothstons were safe but when their patron lost his power all their and his enemies got free hands from Aegon V and wiped them out.

No, I'm afraid that's not what happened. In Worlds it says that they were cast down during the reign of Maekar.

They may well have had some involvement with BR, but given his and Maekar's animosity it wouldn't be surprising if his influence was somewhat weakened during Maekar's reign.