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Does GRRM hate heroism or avoid it? (Jon and Quentyn comparison)

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It has yet to be shown whether the White Walkers are interested in crossing the wall.  Maybe they are not.  In which case, Mance Rayder made a complete fool out of Jon and Stannis.   Which is not really hard to do.  

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8 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It has yet to be shown whether the White Walkers are interested in crossing the wall.  Maybe they are not.  In which case, Mance Rayder made a complete fool out of Jon and Stannis.   Which is not really hard to do.  

So they had wight!Waymar kill Will because he just happened to be on the other side of the Wall?

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7 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It has yet to be shown whether the White Walkers are interested in crossing the wall.  Maybe they are not.  In which case, Mance Rayder made a complete fool out of Jon and Stannis.   Which is not really hard to do.  

No proof.  No proof that the Others are interested in crossing the wall.  Yeah so Mance Rayder used his Horn like some sort of Trojan device to trick Dumb and Dumber, Stannis and Jon, into allowing his wildlings through the wall.  

7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So they had wight!Waymar kill Will because he just happened to be on the other side of the Wall?

Why not?  The rangers were trespassing.  They were caught on the wrong side of the wall.  So why not toy with this arrogant young man and play ice volleyball with their heads.  

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On 10/15/2018 at 7:51 AM, Angel Eyes said:

I don’t know, we still have a bunch of definite villains in the story. Look at Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton. 

Gregor is an idiot.  Ramsay is evil.  Yeah there are villains.  

14 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The way the story is told does bias the reader towards the point of view character.  I wish we had a point of view chapter on Bowen Marsh.  I am sure he will get a lot less of the blame from the reader(s).

I don't blame Marsh at all.  Jon needed to be dealt with.  The boy had lost his senses while obsessing over Arya.  

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On 10/14/2018 at 7:50 AM, Centurion Piso said:

I have trouble seeing Samwell and Sansa as heroes.  Enduring is not enough to make one a hero.  They have to do something to benefit other people to be considered heroic.  

And at the same time, sacrificing oneself is not always noble. Sometimes it's just a waste, and its better to endure. If Arya had rushed in to try to save Ned, she would have died and Ned would be dead anyway. 

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Yeah!    Maybe it's that a situation allows only a certain amount of useful bravery.   Try to puff yourself up beyond that (into a hero) and you hyperventilate.    Like, you don't get to decide that you're a hero.  The situation decides that, and then the people who tell the story later.   So if every sitch is messy (westeros), fewer publicized heroes are born from that?

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Does GRRM hate heroism?  I think GRRM would say no, but the truth might be closer to yes.

Why did he give Jon a chance?  Plot armor?

Why did he kill Quentyn?  To fake us out.

Is GRRM more of an elitist than he'd care to admit?  Probably.

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12 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Does GRRM hate heroism?  I think GRRM would say no, but the truth might be closer to yes.

Why did he give Jon a chance?  Plot armor?

Why did he kill Quentyn?  To fake us out.

Is GRRM more of an elitist than he'd care to admit?  Probably.

He is a man of wealth.  I don't think he's as liberal as many of his fans think he is.  He's not a hippy.  I see him being more of a moderate.

On 10/3/2018 at 8:39 PM, The Marquis de Leech said:

I'd sum up Martin's idea of heroism as rebelling against injustice.

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2018/05/12/the-meaning-of-courage-j-r-r-tolkien-vs-george-r-r-martin/

No, the books aren't nihilistic.

Maybe so, but it does often come across that way.

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On 9/30/2018 at 12:22 PM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Why does Jon get chance to live while Quentyn is burned to death? Does GRRM think that heroism should be attributed to characters who gets more magical noble blood?

Both of these guys did a lot of very, very stupid things.  Their deaths are logical outcomes of their stupidity.  Jon is not guaranteed to come back to life.  His part is done.  

Does George hate heroism and avoid it?  Yeah.  He has an oppositional mentality.  He likes to swim against the current.  If he sees his readers agreeing with a character he will write something to make the character more controversial.  It's almost like he's oppositional to his readers.  It doesn't make the story better nor worse.  It's just his style.  

Edited by Wm Portnoy

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On the contrary. He is a sucker for them. That is why his books are full of them. It is just that he finds narrative "meat" in the consequences by playing them to their logical conclusion. 

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11 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Does George hate heroism and avoid it?  Yeah.  He has an oppositional mentality.  He likes to swim against the current.  If he sees his readers agreeing with a character he will write something to make the character more controversial.  It's almost like he's oppositional to his readers.  It doesn't make the story better nor worse.  It's just his style.  

Agreed. Like dickweed Jaime becoming more human.

The guy pushed a kid out of the window ffs! 

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Maybe he does.  What George does is to keep the boat rocking.  Very little is certain.  Each new volume just adds to the uncertainty and while clues are given, confirmation are not. That's how I feel about this latest volume, Fire and Blood.  So it goes with heroes and heroism.  His heroes are not clean-cut Harry Potter types.  Their actions will always be open to question.  

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12 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

GRRM subverts expectations tropes.

You mean he wants to be different for the sake of being different?  Is that so.

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On 10/20/2018 at 3:52 PM, honorable men said:

Both sides are destroying the world. How can we stop self destructing?

You know what I think it is?  It's hard for an intelligent, observant person NOT to be cynical.  Humans have destructive tendencies.  It's like we're all competing for the same resources.  To be human is to consume.  Such consumption harms the environment.  

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Probably the umpteenth person to have thought this, but I was reading the first Quentin chapter in ADWD and it struck me the first line was, "Adventure Stank". Could well be nothing, but it seems to me it could also be a little metatextual subversion - a la the 'frog' element. If we accept that, it's impossible to say he's avoided heroism, as by subverting a trope,l you've already engaged with it. 

I don't think he hates heroism either. People may not like/have become bored with any one of Jon, Tyrion and Daenarys, but they are still the meat and potatoes of this story (though maybe less Jon now!) and all have denied their base impulses for the 'greater good', and led men in great feats (or whatever bluster is en vogue). 

It may come down to whether we believe there is even such a thing as an a heroic act. If all actions are actually about fulfilling some subconcious urge, then I guess we're all just pricks. 

 

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6 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

No, he wants to be different while crafting a good story. Some people forget the second part. ;)

Well, that’s if he ever finishes the story, which has colored people’s opinions. With Martin’s heroes’ failures, they’ve gained nothing. Jon’s ventures to help against the Long Night have failed as chaos breaks out and he bleeds out in the Castle Black courtyard, Tyrion’s accomplishments as Hand have gone to waste and he wallows in self-pity, and Daenerys has made no gains in Slavers Bay, stuck in the Dothraki Sea and suffering from dysentery. All while a psycho like Ramsay Snow roams free when in Martin’s world he shouldn’t and Littlefinger eyes up a red-haired girl.

Martin doesn’t leave much hope for the rest of us. Those who try good are torn to shreds, those who are bad prosper. 

So, I say Martin hates heroism. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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