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Does GRRM hate heroism or avoid it? (Jon and Quentyn comparison)

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It has yet to be shown whether the White Walkers are interested in crossing the wall.  Maybe they are not.  In which case, Mance Rayder made a complete fool out of Jon and Stannis.   Which is not really hard to do.  

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8 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It has yet to be shown whether the White Walkers are interested in crossing the wall.  Maybe they are not.  In which case, Mance Rayder made a complete fool out of Jon and Stannis.   Which is not really hard to do.  

So they had wight!Waymar kill Will because he just happened to be on the other side of the Wall?

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7 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

It has yet to be shown whether the White Walkers are interested in crossing the wall.  Maybe they are not.  In which case, Mance Rayder made a complete fool out of Jon and Stannis.   Which is not really hard to do.  

No proof.  No proof that the Others are interested in crossing the wall.  Yeah so Mance Rayder used his Horn like some sort of Trojan device to trick Dumb and Dumber, Stannis and Jon, into allowing his wildlings through the wall.  

7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So they had wight!Waymar kill Will because he just happened to be on the other side of the Wall?

Why not?  The rangers were trespassing.  They were caught on the wrong side of the wall.  So why not toy with this arrogant young man and play ice volleyball with their heads.  

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On 10/15/2018 at 7:51 AM, Angel Eyes said:

I don’t know, we still have a bunch of definite villains in the story. Look at Gregor Clegane and Ramsay Bolton. 

Gregor is an idiot.  Ramsay is evil.  Yeah there are villains.  

14 hours ago, Bowen 747 said:

The way the story is told does bias the reader towards the point of view character.  I wish we had a point of view chapter on Bowen Marsh.  I am sure he will get a lot less of the blame from the reader(s).

I don't blame Marsh at all.  Jon needed to be dealt with.  The boy had lost his senses while obsessing over Arya.  

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On 10/14/2018 at 7:50 AM, Centurion Piso said:

I have trouble seeing Samwell and Sansa as heroes.  Enduring is not enough to make one a hero.  They have to do something to benefit other people to be considered heroic.  

And at the same time, sacrificing oneself is not always noble. Sometimes it's just a waste, and its better to endure. If Arya had rushed in to try to save Ned, she would have died and Ned would be dead anyway. 

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Yeah!    Maybe it's that a situation allows only a certain amount of useful bravery.   Try to puff yourself up beyond that (into a hero) and you hyperventilate.    Like, you don't get to decide that you're a hero.  The situation decides that, and then the people who tell the story later.   So if every sitch is messy (westeros), fewer publicized heroes are born from that?

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Does GRRM hate heroism?  I think GRRM would say no, but the truth might be closer to yes.

Why did he give Jon a chance?  Plot armor?

Why did he kill Quentyn?  To fake us out.

Is GRRM more of an elitist than he'd care to admit?  Probably.

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12 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Does GRRM hate heroism?  I think GRRM would say no, but the truth might be closer to yes.

Why did he give Jon a chance?  Plot armor?

Why did he kill Quentyn?  To fake us out.

Is GRRM more of an elitist than he'd care to admit?  Probably.

He is a man of wealth.  I don't think he's as liberal as many of his fans think he is.  He's not a hippy.  I see him being more of a moderate.

On 10/3/2018 at 8:39 PM, The Marquis de Leech said:

I'd sum up Martin's idea of heroism as rebelling against injustice.

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2018/05/12/the-meaning-of-courage-j-r-r-tolkien-vs-george-r-r-martin/

No, the books aren't nihilistic.

Maybe so, but it does often come across that way.

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