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Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn

Does GRRM hate heroism or avoid it? (Jon and Quentyn comparison)

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On 12/25/2018 at 5:22 AM, The Sleeper said:

On the contrary. He is a sucker for them. That is why his books are full of them. It is just that he finds narrative "meat" in the consequences by playing them to their logical conclusion. 

There are moments of heroism.  Yeah, so he doesn't go out of his way to keep it out of his writing.  What is more true is your latter point.  GM follows through on consequences.  I mean, if we take Robb Stark and what happened to him, put it under examination.  It all makes sense.  Robb Stark alienated the people who supported him in order to get justice for the enemy.  Sometimes a leader needs to know when to put honor aside.  And let's face it.  Robb was a hypocrite.  He made the biggest mistake for his team when he broke his oath to old Walder Frey.  So why couldn't he forgive Karstark.  Robb forgave himself.  Why couldn't he extend the same mercy to Karstark.

Quentyn Martell chose to play with danger.  Dragons are fire made flesh and fire is power.  Quentyn wanted that power and he got burned.  He danced with the dragons and missed a step in the ballroom.  You don't get a score in this game though.  This isn't dancing with the stars.  He missed a step and paid for it with his life.  

The people who will come out ahead in this story are the ones who can control their emotions.  Quentyn had daddy issues and that compromised his thinking.  Robb and Jon didn't have the needed emotional control to succeed and paid for it with their lives and the lives of their followers.  For someone with good emotional control look no further than Petyr Baelish.  

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1 hour ago, Only 89 selfies today said:

 

The people who will come out ahead in this story are the ones who can control their emotions.  Quentyn had daddy issues and that compromised his thinking.  Robb and Jon didn't have the needed emotional control to succeed and paid for it with their lives and the lives of their followers.  For someone with good emotional control look no further than Petyr Baelish.  

Tell that to Ramsay Snow, who does what he pleases and comes out on top.

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On 9/30/2018 at 12:22 PM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Why does Jon get chance to live while Quentyn is burned to death? Does GRRM think that heroism should be attributed to characters who gets more magical noble blood?

TLDR is at the bottom.

On 9/30/2018 at 12:22 PM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Why does Jon get chance to live while Quentyn is burned to death?

Because Jon never felt the 4th knife only the cold. Cliffhanger.

Eddard's bastard child has multiple teases throughout the story as to who the mother is. For some reason martin had Eddard go to great lengths to protect that child.  Eddard brought his bastard home to WF and Eddard reared his bastard among his true born children much to the consternation of Eddard's wife. BTW Eddard acquired a wife as a deal to bind Tully (boss) to Stark (boss) so that the so called Robert's Rebellion could happen.

Whereas Quent was farmed out and eventually given instructions to woo the dragon Dany. Quent got rejected. Then Quent got toasted while trying to claim and tame a wing flapping flame throwing dragon.  Quent didn't really want the two legged blonde haired, purple eyed beauty. Quent wanted a wing flapping fire breathing dragon. As do Euron & Vic want a dragon.

On 9/30/2018 at 12:22 PM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Does GRRM think that heroism should be attributed to characters who gets more magical noble blood?

I don't know what martin thinks. I have never met the man nor have I had any engaging conversation with him. Therefore I canna say what I think the man thinks.

If I take the magical components out of the story it appears to me that the story shows how individuals lie, cheat and manipulate for self serving motives via deceit as contrasted to say someone like Bronn, Sandor, Tormund or Oberyn who lie, cheat, steal and kill openly for self serving purposes.

When I read this saga/tale I have to make judgement calls. Who is doing what, when, where, how and why. The story is not real. What martin does accomplish is that he shows the motivation of his characters. What I have to do as a reader is decide who --- which House --- which family --- I support.

Martin is not the first author to write fictional stories of sorcery and hidden kings and deceptions.

The book I remember the most is the 1982 Mists of Avalon written by Marion Bradley. I'm giving the date of publishing because fictional BOOKS are stories and AUTHORS are story tellers.

Various versions of Arthur include Merlin. There was even a fictional story about St. George and the dragon who required human sacrifice.

TLDR: There are no hero's in ASOIAF merely individuals fighting to gain or protect what they believe is theirs. Sad, but true. Humanity, Why do individuals still bare false witness, rape, murder, rob and steal from their brethren?

 

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Tell that to Ramsay Snow, who does what he pleases and comes out on top.

You seem to be thinking of the show's super-Ramsey. The Book one achieved some things through combination of treachery, cruelty and being an unknown face, but people are on to him now and he is a large part of Roose's current problems. In fact, with FArya's escape  he is edging towards pure liability. Jon said it himself - there were good reasons for the northmen to accept  Bolton rule, at least in the short term, and quite a few might have done so, if it was just Roose with a reasonable heir, but with Ramsey in the wings even people who would have been so inclined (Lady Dustin, the Rhyswells, etc.) aren't going to.

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1 hour ago, Maia said:

You seem to be thinking of the show's super-Ramsey. The Book one achieved some things through combination of treachery, cruelty and being an unknown face, but people are on to him now and he is a large part of Roose's current problems. In fact, with FArya's escape  he is edging towards pure liability. Jon said it himself - there were good reasons for the northmen to accept  Bolton rule, at least in the short term, and quite a few might have done so, if it was just Roose with a reasonable heir, but with Ramsey in the wings even people who would have been so inclined (Lady Dustin, the Rhyswells, etc.) aren't going to.

No, I’m referring to the book Ramsay. As it stands presently he’s a karma houdini, given that it’s unlikely that GRRM will finish the series.

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On 10/1/2018 at 6:38 PM, Sigella said:

Imo the answer to your topic is neither. GRRM is playing around with our conception of heroism.

I wonder about that.  Maybe his opinion of what a heroine/hero is differ from yours or mine.  The forums is proof of people each having their own opinion of what makes a heroine/hero.   George dramatizes because this is fantasy.  It's bigger than real life.  So the heroine/hero will do things that many people in real life will never get to do.  

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On December 28, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

I am going say it I think that Quentyn Martell is still alive.

What? No way any normal person can live through what he did. 

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I do not see GRRM hating heroism or avoiding it. I think he writes it as it is, Heroes and Non Heroes alike die all the time. Life is not always fair. Sometimes the coward lives and sometimes they die, Same with heroes. 

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On 12/27/2018 at 7:43 AM, Angel Eyes said:

Tell that to Ramsay Snow, who does what he pleases and comes out on top.

You're allowing the show to color your opinion of the character.  Book Ramsay is a cunning operator.  He has his perversions that can ruin him in the end but he knows his boundaries.  The only time he crossed that line is the starving of Hornwood.  

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1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I do not see GRRM hating heroism or avoiding it. I think he writes it as it is, Heroes and Non Heroes alike die all the time. Life is not always fair. Sometimes the coward lives and sometimes they die, Same with heroes. 

Sure.  Anybody can die.  Dying or surviving has nothing to do with heroism or the lack thereof.  Cause leading to an effect that makes sense is a better story.  A coward may live but that coward is not going to get ahead in life.  Martin would know this.  He took risks to become the successful writer of books that he is.  Another person might take a different path and choose to have financial certainty and avoid the career risk.  That person could end up with a regular paycheck writing for his local newspaper.  This is why I laugh whenever I read people betting on Sansa becoming queen.  She hasn't done anything to elevate herself to such a lofty position.  I just don't see that happening.  Marrying a landed knight is more fitting for Sansa.  

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21 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I wonder about that.  Maybe his opinion of what a heroine/hero is differ from yours or mine.  The forums is proof of people each having their own opinion of what makes a heroine/hero.   George dramatizes because this is fantasy.  It's bigger than real life.  So the heroine/hero will do things that many people in real life will never get to do.  

I think the wildly differing moral views on this forum might rather be about posters wanting to play the devils advocate than anything else, though. (Frey-lovers and Slaver-apologists and what have you)

 

But what I meant is that GRRM is playing with our notions: how many times do we have to re-evaluate Jaime morally? First he is the Kingslayer that has twincest and pushes Bran out a window so... Blackest baddie ever.

And then we learn how kingslaying was really altruistic and pushing Bran was to protect twincest offspring so we think... Grey.

Then he rescues Brienne and start setting the Kingsguard to rights... So, off-white maybe?

And then he goes on to Riverrun and threatens to catapult a baby into the castle if it doesn’t yield which forces us to re-evaluate yet again...

Sure theese are some real broad strokes but I hope you see my point.

There are a tonne of this stuff on every single character, so I think GRRM likes to play with our moral scale, tipping it one way and then another etc. I think its so effing brilliant.

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15 hours ago, Enuma Elish said:

You're allowing the show to color your opinion of the character.  Book Ramsay is a cunning operator.  He has his perversions that can ruin him in the end but he knows his boundaries.  The only time he crossed that line is the starving of Hornwood.  

I’m referring to the books version, who hasn’t received karma and likely never will, depending on whether or not GRRM writes the other books.

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Speaking of karma.  Is there even such other than what we make?  Ramsay can end up being a hero.  If we're going to be honest we all need to admit.  George can take his story in whatever direction he chooses.  Fiction allows him the latitude to take any character through a U-turn. 

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

I think the wildly differing moral views on this forum might rather be about posters wanting to play the devils advocate than anything else, though. (Frey-lovers and Slaver-apologists and what have you)

 

But what I meant is that GRRM is playing with our notions: how many times do we have to re-evaluate Jaime morally? First he is the Kingslayer that has twincest and pushes Bran out a window so... Blackest baddie ever.

And then we learn how kingslaying was really altruistic and pushing Bran was to protect twincest offspring so we think... Grey.

Then he rescues Brienne and start setting the Kingsguard to rights... So, off-white maybe?

And then he goes on to Riverrun and threatens to catapult a baby into the castle if it doesn’t yield which forces us to re-evaluate yet again...

Sure theese are some real broad strokes but I hope you see my point.

There are a tonne of this stuff on every single character, so I think GRRM likes to play with our moral scale, tipping it one way and then another etc. I think its so effing brilliant.

To what end?  For the sake of entertainment.  To change the world.  To send a message.  For the fun of it.  I say for our entertainment.

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17 hours ago, Enuma Elish said:

Sure.  Anybody can die.  Dying or surviving has nothing to do with heroism or the lack thereof.  Cause leading to an effect that makes sense is a better story.  A coward may live but that coward is not going to get ahead in life.  Martin would know this.  He took risks to become the successful writer of books that he is.  Another person might take a different path and choose to have financial certainty and avoid the career risk.  That person could end up with a regular paycheck writing for his local newspaper.  This is why I laugh whenever I read people betting on Sansa becoming queen.  She hasn't done anything to elevate herself to such a lofty position.  I just don't see that happening.  Marrying a landed knight is more fitting for Sansa.  

Sometimes cowards go a long way ahead in life. It just comes down to fate, Some things are more risky than others which can result in death. I believe in fate and that is not always certain. 

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20 hours ago, Rocks For Jocks 101 said:

Speaking of karma.  Is there even such other than what we make?  Ramsay can end up being a hero.  If we're going to be honest we all need to admit.  George can take his story in whatever direction he chooses.  Fiction allows him the latitude to take any character through a U-turn. 

To what end?  For the sake of entertainment.  To change the world.  To send a message.  For the fun of it.  I say for our entertainment.

For the sake of the art.

 

edit: Above is my guess, I don't have a clue what GRRM thinks.

Edited by Sigella

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On 1/16/2019 at 5:24 PM, Angel Eyes said:

I’m referring to the books version, who hasn’t received karma and likely never will, depending on whether or not GRRM writes the other books.

GRRM has notes.  His heir can choose a writer to put those notes into a coherent novel.  We will get an ending.  Okay yes it will be years from now but we will get our ending.  

 

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