Craster, Mance, BR, Aemon, Rhaegar, and Harrenhal.

[AlaskanSandman]

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII

"Gerrick is the true and rightful king of the wildlings," the queen said, "descended in an unbroken male line from their great king Raymun Redbeard, whereas the usurper Mance Rayder was born of some common woman and fathered by one of your black brothers."

Mance was born of a black brother and a wildling.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

"A boy at a feast, five years past. He'd come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t' try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once."

"It wasn't Longspear, then?" Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

She punched him. "That's vile. Would you bed your sister?"

"Longspear's not your brother."

"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

"Craster weds his daughters," Jon pointed out.

She punched him again. "Craster's more your kind than ours. His father was a crow who stole a woman out of Whitetree village, but after he had her he flew back t' his Wall. She went t' Castle Black once t' show the crow his son, but the brothers blew their horns and run her off. Craster's blood is black, and he bears a heavy curse."

Craster too was fathered by a Black brother on a woman from WhiteTree. 

Could Mance Rayder be the brother or son of Craster? 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

 

"That Mance Rayder?" Craster spit into the fire. "King-beyond-the-Wall. What do free folk want with kings?" He turned his squint on Mormont. "There's much I could tell you o' Rayder and his doings, if I had a mind. This o' the empty villages, that's his work. You would have found this hall abandoned as well, if I were a man to scrape to such. He sends a rider, tells me I must leave my own keep to come grovel at his feet. I sent the man back, but kept his tongue. It's nailed to that wall there." He pointed. "Might be that I could tell you where to seek Mance Rayder. If I had a mind." The brown smile again. "But we'll have time enough for that. You'll be wanting to sleep beneath my roof, be like, and eat me out of pigs."

Craster doesn't seem to respect Mance as the other wildlings do. Mance say's even less about Craster. 

So what can we puzzle out about them? Who could be their fathers? Could they be the same man? Bloodraven and Aemon would be pretty old to be having kids but not impossible, and Aemon mentions a woman tempting him, but Aemon was already old when going to the Wall. Though still over 20 years younger than Bloodraven. Could Bloodraven have a son among the Raven's Teeth that went North with him? Speculation is all we mostly have unless any one can spot a well placed clue that can tell us more. 

What we do know. 

Bloodraven and Aemon went to the Wall together and may have got along quite well as both shared an interest in prophecy and likely talked about TPTWP.

Further, Aemon was in communication with Rhaegar, who had been born after Aemon went to the wall, about TPTWP. Why does Rhaegar know Aemon? Why are they writting each other via ravens? Ravens under the control of Bloodraven. 

So we have Bloodraven, Aemon, and Rhaegar all in communication with each other over prophecy. Plus, we have a Black Brother fathering Craster (who practices incest like the Valyrians) and Mance. 

A Black Brother is at Harrenhal where a tourney of singers is held, and Jon even sends Daeron south hoping his singing will help win recruits. Mance was a Black brother at the time an known for his great singing.

A Knight of the Laughing Tree appears. Is this a throw back to home? To WhiteTree?

Rhaegar appears to crown Lyanna in a scene that reminds us of Bael the Bard. Then is accused of stealing Lyanna. Did Rhaegar? Could Rheagar and Mance have met? Before you say no, consider the facts. Consider Mance is born of a Black brother, the same possible Black Brother who fathered Craster, who is giving children to the Others and practicing incest. Mance, who served with Mormont, Qhorin halfhand, and Maester Aemon. Maester Aemon who was in contact with Rhaegar, via ravens controlled by Bloodraven. Sound crazy? Or something going on? 

Did Rhaegar take Lyanna? Or did Mance, and Rhaegar facilitated it? 

Mance is possibly the blood of old Valyria through Bael the Bard. Through possibly Alysanne Targaryen. Through possibly Bloodraven or Aemon. Should we truly discount Mance? 

Or did Rhaegar actually do it, and Mance plays a different part? Could Mance have got the Dornishman's wife? Was Ashara Dayne engaged? Could Mance have met her? Or is it something else? Why are all these pieces on the board and what do they all mean? Why is Qhorin so interested in Jon from the get go, and getting him to Mance?

Lmk your thoughts on Mance and Craster and who their parent's could be. Could Mance be tied up in Harrenhal some how? If so, how? 

[Varysblackfyre321]

Wow man,  another interesting thread. This should bring some lively discussion. 

[LindsayLohan]

5 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Mance was born of a black brother and a wildling.

Craster too was fathered by a Black brother on a woman from WhiteTree. 

Could Mance Rayder be the brother or son of Craster? 

Craster doesn't seem to respect Mance as the other wildlings do. Mance say's even less about Craster. 

So what can we puzzle out about them? Who could be their fathers? Could they be the same man? Bloodraven and Aemon would be pretty old to be having kids but not impossible, and Aemon mentions a woman tempting him, but Aemon was already old when going to the Wall. Though still over 20 years younger than Bloodraven. Could Bloodraven have a son among the Raven's Teeth that went North with him? Speculation is all we mostly have unless any one can spot a well placed clue that can tell us more. 

What we do know. 

Bloodraven and Aemon went to the Wall together and may have got along quite well as both shared an interest in prophecy and likely talked about TPTWP.

Further, Aemon was in communication with Rhaegar, who had been born after Aemon went to the wall, about TPTWP. Why does Rhaegar know Aemon? Why are they writting each other via ravens? Ravens under the control of Bloodraven. 

So we have Bloodraven, Aemon, and Rhaegar all in communication with each other over prophecy. Plus, we have a Black Brother fathering Craster (who practices incest like the Valyrians) and Mance. 

A Black Brother is at Harrenhal where a tourney of singers is held, and Jon even sends Daeron south hoping his singing will help win recruits. Mance was a Black brother at the time an known for his great singing.

A Knight of the Laughing Tree appears. Is this a throw back to home? To WhiteTree?

Rhaegar appears to crown Lyanna in a scene that reminds us of Bael the Bard. Then is accused of stealing Lyanna. Did Rhaegar? Could Rheagar and Mance have met? Before you say no, consider the facts. Consider Mance is born of a Black brother, the same possible Black Brother who fathered Craster, who is giving children to the Others and practicing incest. Mance, who served with Mormont, Qhorin halfhand, and Maester Aemon. Maester Aemon who was in contact with Rhaegar, via ravens controlled by Bloodraven. Sound crazy? Or something going on? 

Did Rhaegar take Lyanna? Or did Mance, and Rhaegar facilitated it? 

Mance is possibly the blood of old Valyria through Bael the Bard. Through possibly Alysanne Targaryen. Through possibly Bloodraven or Aemon. Should we truly discount Mance? 

Or did Rhaegar actually do it, and Mance plays a different part? Could Mance have got the Dornishman's wife? Was Ashara Dayne engaged? Could Mance have met her? Or is it something else? Why are all these pieces on the board and what do they all mean? Why is Qhorin so interested in Jon from the get go, and getting him to Mance?

Lmk your thoughts on Mance and Craster and who their parent's could be. Could Mance be tied up in Harrenhal some how? If so, how? 

Knight of the Laughing Tree? No.

Aemon was not in communication with Rhaegar.  "Sounds crazy?"  Yes.  "Or something going on?" No.

"Did Rhaegar take Lyanna?" Yes. "Or did Mance, and Rhaegar facilitated it?" No.

"Should we truly discount Mance?" Yes.

"Could Mance have got the Dornishman's wife?" No.

"Could Mance have met her?" No.

"Why is Quorin so interested in Jon from the get go, and getting him to Mance?"  Once the Ranging party's plan had been blown, with Quorin and Jon certain to be captured or killed, Quorin tries to save the mission.  Quorin knows his own life is surely forfeit, but Jon is young, has already bonded with Ygritte, and is a Stark of Winterfell.  Finding a way to get Jon to Mance alive is the only way to make good on their mission, which is accomplished.

"Could Mance be tied up in Harrenhall somehow?"  No.

 

[kissdbyfire]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Aemon mentions a woman tempting him, but Aemon was already old when going to the Wall.

He was 35 when he went to the Wall. Not old even by Westerosi standards. 

And what @LindsayLohan said. 

[Bael's Bastard]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Mance was born of a black brother and a wildling.

Craster too was fathered by a Black brother on a woman from WhiteTree. 

Could Mance Rayder be the brother or son of Craster? 

If Mance's father was a man of the Night's Watch, then Craster was not his father. I don't believe any ages are indicated for Mance or Craster. Mance has brown hair that has gone mostly to grey. Craster has grey hair going to white. For all we know, they could be years apart in age, or decades apart in age. But there is no reason to think they are related one way or another.

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Bloodraven and Aemon went to the Wall together and may have got along quite well as both shared an interest in prophecy and likely talked about TPTWP.

Further, Aemon was in communication with Rhaegar, who had been born after Aemon went to the wall, about TPTWP. Why does Rhaegar know Aemon? Why are they writting each other via ravens? Ravens under the control of Bloodraven. 

So we have Bloodraven, Aemon, and Rhaegar all in communication with each other over prophecy. Plus, we have a Black Brother fathering Craster (who practices incest like the Valyrians) and Mance.

It is possible, perhaps even likely, that Bloodraven and Aemon discussed TPTWP and the war for the dawn at some point, whether or not they got along.

But it isn't clear when Rhaegar and Aemon began communicating, whenever it was, it was certainly long after Bloodraven's disappearance in 252 AC, about seven years before Rhaegar was born, and who knows how many more years before Rhaegar was writing letters or sending ravens to anyone.

The Targaryen and Valyrian custom was to wed siblings, and if none was available, to wed uncles, aunts, cousins, nephews, and nieces. But there is as of yet no indication they wed or impregnated their own children, as Craster does.

The old gods and new no doubt view all or most of these forms of incest as monstrous sins (except perhaps cousins, which seems common enough), but the Targaryen and Valyrian custom can't be shown to have included Craster's brand of incest.

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Black Brother is at Harrenhal where a tourney of singers is held, and Jon even sends Daeron south hoping his singing will help win recruits. Mance was a Black brother at the time an known for his great singing.

We don't know the identity of the man of the Night's Watch at the Harrenhal Tourney, but we are told that he "spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch," with not a single hint that he sang or was a singer.

Furthermore, we don't actually know that Mance was a black brother at the time of the Harrenhal Tourney.  The earliest reference we have to Mance as a sworn brother is as an escort of Lord Commander Qorgyle (who died in around 288 AC), on a visit to Winterfell, when Jon and Robb (who were born in 283 AC) were boys. So there is no hint of Mance having been a sworn brother prior to Robert's Rebellion, no hint of him ever having been sent further south than Winterfell, and no hint of him ever having been utilized as a singer, or having been a recruiter.

Yoren, on the other hand, has "Been bringing men to the Wall for close on thirty years." Even if we were to be conservative and say he has only been a recruiter for twenty-five years, that would still put his start around 273 AC, meaning he had been a recruiter for a good eight years or so by the time of the Harrenhal Tourney.

Of course, we can't say for sure that the recruiter at the Harrenhal Tourney was Yoren, but we can say that he is the only character that we know for certain was a recruiter for the Night's Watch at the time of the Harrenhal Tourney, and unlike Mance, we can at least say he is a candidate.

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Knight of the Laughing Tree appears. Is this a throw back to home? To WhiteTree?

Rhaegar appears to crown Lyanna in a scene that reminds us of Bael the Bard. Then is accused of stealing Lyanna. Did Rhaegar? Could Rheagar and Mance have met? Before you say no, consider the facts. Consider Mance is born of a Black brother, the same possible Black Brother who fathered Craster, who is giving children to the Others and practicing incest. Mance, who served with Mormont, Qhorin halfhand, and Maester Aemon. Maester Aemon who was in contact with Rhaegar, via ravens controlled by Bloodraven. Sound crazy? Or something going on? 

Did Rhaegar take Lyanna? Or did Mance, and Rhaegar facilitated it? 

Mance is possibly the blood of old Valyria through Bael the Bard. Through possibly Alysanne Targaryen. Through possibly Bloodraven or Aemon. Should we truly discount Mance? 

Or did Rhaegar actually do it, and Mance plays a different part? Could Mance have got the Dornishman's wife? Was Ashara Dayne engaged? Could Mance have met her? Or is it something else? Why are all these pieces on the board and what do they all mean? Why is Qhorin so interested in Jon from the get go, and getting him to Mance?

Lmk your thoughts on Mance and Craster and who their parent's could be. Could Mance be tied up in Harrenhal some how? If so, how? 

Most of that just seems needlessly convoluted.

I have wondered if Bloodraven might have fathered Craster (assuming Craster was born after 233 AC) or Mance (assuming he was born prior to 252 AC), but there's no real evidence or hint at that.

Mance probably has greater odds of being the son of one of Bloodraven's Raven's Teeth archers than Bloodraven himself, and even that is presumptuous.

[Bael's Bastard]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Aemon mentions a woman tempting him, but Aemon was already old when going to the Wall.

Aemon says he was tested three times.

"Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother's poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children …" (AGOT: Jon VIII)

When he had grown old = the ruin of his house in 283 AC (85 years old)

In the fullness of his manhood = when he was offered the crown over his brother Egg in 233 AC (35 years old)

I don't recall any specification about what the test was when he was a boy, but it seems he was sent to the Citadel in around 207-208 AC, and said his vows in around 217-218 AC. So he is either referring to himself as a boy when he was 19-20 or older, or he is referring to a vow prior to actually taking his maester vows.

[Moiraine Sedai]

4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Wow man,  another interesting thread. This should bring some lively discussion. 

Indeed

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Mance was born of a black brother and a wildling.

Craster too was fathered by a Black brother on a woman from WhiteTree. 

Could Mance Rayder be the brother or son of Craster? 

Maybe, but it does not matter. 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Craster doesn't seem to respect Mance as the other wildlings do. Mance say's even less about Craster. 

Craster is aloof to the other wildlings. He is after all a friend to the watch. Mance never mentions him at all. 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So what can we puzzle out about them? Who could be their fathers? Could they be the same man? Bloodraven and Aemon would be pretty old to be having kids but not impossible, and Aemon mentions a woman tempting him, but Aemon was already old when going to the Wall. Though still over 20 years younger than Bloodraven. Could Bloodraven have a son among the Raven's Teeth that went North with him? Speculation is all we mostly have unless any one can spot a well placed clue that can tell us more. 

All possible, but i matters not. 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Bloodraven and Aemon went to the Wall together and may have got along quite well as both shared an interest in prophecy and likely talked about TPTWP.

Nope. It was never mentioned. Only Aemon spoke of it. 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Further, Aemon was in communication with Rhaegar, who had been born after Aemon went to the wall, about TPTWP. Why does Rhaegar know Aemon? 

Aemon is a relative, and there are few Targs left by then.  He is also very knowledgeable. Who else has his knowledge? 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why are they writting each other via ravens?

 That is how people communicate over distance. You might as well ask why people speak to each other. 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ravens under the control of Bloodraven. 

If you are into lazy writing. 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So we have Bloodraven, Aemon, and Rhaegar all in communication with each other over prophecy. Plus, we have a Black Brother fathering Craster (who practices incest like the Valyrians) and Mance. 

craster does not "practice" it like the Targs.  He rapes his daughters and  kills his sons. Also, I am sure there are plenty of wilding kids fathered by wandering rangers. 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Black Brother is at Harrenhal where a tourney of singers is held, and Jon even sends Daeron south hoping his singing will help win recruits. Mance was a Black brother at the time an known for his great singing.

A Knight of the Laughing Tree appears. Is this a throw back to home? To WhiteTree?

A symbol of the old gods kept by house Reed and Stark. 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegar appears to crown Lyanna in a scene that reminds us of Bael the Bard. Then is accused of stealing Lyanna. Did Rhaegar? Could Rheagar and Mance have met? Before you say no, consider the facts. Consider Mance is born of a Black brother, the same possible Black Brother who fathered Craster, who is giving children to the Others and practicing incest. Mance, who served with Mormont, Qhorin halfhand, and Maester Aemon. Maester Aemon who was in contact with Rhaegar, via ravens controlled by Bloodraven. Sound crazy? Or something going on? 

For this to work, Mance would need to mention that he went south to the tourney. He did not so no

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Did Rhaegar take Lyanna?

Yes. It is a central plot in the books and its aftermath literally sets the stage for A game of thrones. 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Or did Mance, and Rhaegar facilitated it? 

Nope. It was Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. Read the World book. 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 Mance is possibly the blood of old Valyria through Bael the Bard. Through possibly Alysanne Targaryen. Through possibly Bloodraven or Aemon. Should we truly discount Mance? 

Discounting him would require a possibility of his involvement in something. We don't have anything aside from your fan fic. it is interesting, but  fan fic. 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Or did Rhaegar actually do it, and Mance plays a different part? Could Mance have got the Dornishman's wife? Was Ashara Dayne engaged? Could Mance have met her? Or is it something else?

You tell us. This is your fan fic. 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why are all these pieces on the board and what do they all mean? 

There aren't "pieces" other than the story you are writing about the characters in someone else's story. 

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 Why is Qhorin so interested in Jon from the get go, and getting him to Mance?

Read the books again. Qhorin states that Jon is the only person in the group that has a chance of being accepted by mance. Qhorin has Jon recite the vows, and then Qhorin sacrifices himself for the watch. It is literally all spelled out for you.

[AlaskanSandman]

9 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

"Why is Quorin so interested in Jon from the get go, and getting him to Mance?"  Once the Ranging party's plan had been blown, with Quorin and Jon certain to be captured or killed, Quorin tries to save the mission.  Quorin knows his own life is surely forfeit, but Jon is young, has already bonded with Ygritte, and is a Stark of Winterfell.  Finding a way to get Jon to Mance alive is the only way to make good on their mission, which is accomplished.

If im not mistaken, Qhorin's interest in Jon get's the ranging party caught, cause of Ghost being spotted. So no, i dont believe Qhorin was dumb enough to bring Jon and Ghost knowing about Wargs. 

Then, before ever getting caught, Qhorin leaves Jon to kill Ygritte knowing he wont do it. He even tell's Jon that he knew he wouldn't do it. Again, sealing their fate. Qhorin got them caught. 

May wanna reread those sections. 

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

He was 35 when he went to the Wall. Not old even by Westerosi standards. 

And what @LindsayLohan said. 

Sorry, meant as far as fathering Mance. Given Mance seems of an age with Eddard. Assuming he was roughly 16 around Harrenhal as Eddard was.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Indeed

 

10 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Wow man,  another interesting thread. This should bring some lively discussion. 

I can't tell if your all being sincere or not. But yes, i know im crazy for many of my thoughts, like Bael being real and a sign of Valyrian activity in the North prior to Aegon, or that Alysanne cheated at Queen's Crown. Im running with it though 

[kissdbyfire]

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Sorry, meant as far as fathering Mance. Given Mance seems of an age with Eddard. Assuming he was roughly 16 around Harrenhal as Eddard was.

I see. My impression is that Mance is a tad older than Eddard, who is ~ 35 at the start of the series. 

Also, what you said about Qhorin above, I disagree. When Qhorin first meets Jon in ACoK, he immediately recognises Jon as a Stark, and proceeds to ask him about Ghost. So, although he couldn't be sure, I think the possibility of Jon being a warg was always on his mind and that's why he asks Mormont for Jon to be in his party. 

[AlaskanSandman]

6 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

If Mance's father was a man of the Night's Watch, then Craster was not his father. I don't believe any ages are indicated for Mance or Craster. Mance has brown hair that has gone mostly to grey. Craster has grey hair going to white. For all we know, they could be years apart in age, or decades apart in age. But there is no reason to think they are related one way or another.

It is possible, perhaps even likely, that Bloodraven and Aemon discussed TPTWP and the war for the dawn at some point, whether or not they got along.

But it isn't clear when Rhaegar and Aemon began communicating, whenever it was, it was certainly long after Bloodraven's disappearance in 252 AC, about seven years before Rhaegar was born, and who knows how many more years before Rhaegar was writing letters or sending ravens to anyone.

The Targaryen and Valyrian custom was to wed siblings, and if none was available, to wed uncles, aunts, cousins, nephews, and nieces. But there is as of yet no indication they wed or impregnated their own children, as Craster does.

The old gods and new no doubt view all or most of these forms of incest as monstrous sins (except perhaps cousins, which seems common enough), but the Targaryen and Valyrian custom can't be shown to have included Craster's brand of incest.

We don't know the identity of the man of the Night's Watch at the Harrenhal Tourney, but we are told that he "spoke, asking the knights to join the Night's Watch," with not a single hint that he sang or was a singer.

Furthermore, we don't actually know that Mance was a black brother at the time of the Harrenhal Tourney.  The earliest reference we have to Mance as a sworn brother is as an escort of Lord Commander Qorgyle (who died in around 288 AC), on a visit to Winterfell, when Jon and Robb (who were born in 283 AC) were boys. So there is no hint of Mance having been a sworn brother prior to Robert's Rebellion, no hint of him ever having been sent further south than Winterfell, and no hint of him ever having been utilized as a singer, or having been a recruiter.

Yoren, on the other hand, has "Been bringing men to the Wall for close on thirty years." Even if we were to be conservative and say he has only been a recruiter for twenty-five years, that would still put his start around 273 AC, meaning he had been a recruiter for a good eight years or so by the time of the Harrenhal Tourney.

Of course, we can't say for sure that the recruiter at the Harrenhal Tourney was Yoren, but we can say that he is the only character that we know for certain was a recruiter for the Night's Watch at the time of the Harrenhal Tourney, and unlike Mance, we can at least say he is a candidate.

Most of that just seems needlessly convoluted.

I have wondered if Bloodraven might have fathered Craster (assuming Craster was born after 233 AC) or Mance (assuming he was born prior to 252 AC), but there's no real evidence or hint at that.

Mance probably has greater odds of being the son of one of Bloodraven's Raven's Teeth archers than Bloodraven himself, and even that is presumptuous.

Thank you for the thoughtful response, and i agree much is speculation. All we usually have is speculation unfortunately.

I agree that its quite possible that Mance and Craster are not related and not tied to any Black Brother we know of. Though that being said, i do like to imagine situations of which they might be hiding things. Not just random stuff like oh, did Lyanna like eating coca plants? But i do try to look for clues that seem meant to catch our eyes.

So in doing so, i look for evidence along with motive. Motive is often the hardest. Take Rhaegar taking Lyanna. Most believe it, but why he took he is hotly debated. Prophecy, love, ransom. Convoluted? Maybe, not for me to decide though. Im just following the story. 

So the revelation of them coming from Black Brothers seems important and doesn't' seem to apply to Jon or Sam as neither has had a child on a wildling. 

Mance served the Watch while the Craster was ran off. I can't help but feel that's important too. What? Idk, that's why im here seeking other minds.

Mance was raised by the Black Brothers though, so its more than likely Mance was serving before Robert's Rebellion imo. Though Yoren was in service too. So you may be right that it was Yoren there, but Yoren died with out telling us anything. So if it was him, he was a wasted opportunity to give us clues. 

Mance on the other hand seems to have an interest in getting into the crypts of Winterfell. Something he never mentioned to Jon. So this is knowledge outside of Jon and not in need of Jon. The Horn of Joramun? Lyanna's Crypt? What is it? Why get Jon, a Stark, to Mance, yet never ask him about the crypts? Why else would Mance except Jon? Logically? Would you except the son of your enemy? 

Plus there is what i think is suspicious actions of Qhorin to get Jon to Mance. Qhorin got them caught so far as i can see it, on purpose. 

I do not have a clear theory here though unfortunately, this is merely to seek ideas. Knowing most wont agree or even try haha but it's always worth it. 

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I see. My impression is that Mance is a tad older than Eddard, who is ~ 35 at the start of the series. 

Also, what you said about Qhorin above, I disagree. When Qhorin first meets Jon in ACoK, he immediately recognises Jon as a Stark, and proceeds to ask him about Ghost. So, although he couldn't be sure, I think the possibility of Jon being a warg was always on his mind and that's why he asks Mormont for Jon to be in his party. 

And yea i was just going off the Grey's. Hard to get an exact fit, and some men grey earlier than others

Possibly, but it's Ghost's presence that get's them caught, and Qhorin leaving Jon to kill Ygritte when he knew Jon wouldn't do it. If he wanted to get away, he would have killed Ygritte him self. Imo. 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Maybe, but it does not matter. 

Craster is aloof to the other wildlings. He is after all a friend to the watch. Mance never mentions him at all. 

All possible, but i matters not. 

Nope. It was never mentioned. Only Aemon spoke of it. 

Aemon is a relative, and there are few Targs left by then.  He is also very knowledgeable. Who else has his knowledge? 

 That is how people communicate over distance. You might as well ask why people speak to each other. 

If you are into lazy writing. 

craster does not "practice" it like the Targs.  He rapes his daughters and  kills his sons. Also, I am sure there are plenty of wilding kids fathered by wandering rangers. 

A symbol of the old gods kept by house Reed and Stark. 

For this to work, Mance would need to mention that he went south to the tourney. He did not so no

Yes. It is a central plot in the books and its aftermath literally sets the stage for A game of thrones. 

Nope. It was Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. Read the World book. 

Discounting him would require a possibility of his involvement in something. We don't have anything aside from your fan fic. it is interesting, but  fan fic. 

You tell us. This is your fan fic. 

There aren't "pieces" other than the story you are writing about the characters in someone else's story. 

Read the books again. Qhorin states that Jon is the only person in the group that has a chance of being accepted by mance. Qhorin has Jon recite the vows, and then Qhorin sacrifices himself for the watch. It is literally all spelled out for you.

Why would Mance need to mention it? Yoren didn't mention it either, yet some one had to be that Black brother. Why mention one there? 

Crasters relationship to the watch compared to Mance is interesting but Mance does mention Craster with Tormund when asking Jon how he knew stuff.

And you really think Aemon and Brendyn never discussed prophecy on their long time together at the wall? 

And yes, i know that's how they communicate. Still doesn't change the fact that Bloodraven uses those ravens, and him and Aemon served together for a long time and likely spoke manyyyy times. Whether Aemon realized Bloodraven was privy to those messages, idk. That is where im speculating and questioning.

And why does Aemon have that knowledge? Knowledge gained by Aerys I whose hand was Bloodraven. So how do you reason that the two didn't talk about prophecy? Just cause the book doesn't out right say it?

And how is it a symbol for House Reed and House Stark? Since when do they emblazon images of weirwood trees on things? Find me one evidence for this claim.

And why does Mance need to mention it for it to work? There was a Black brother there, and Mance served at the time. Plus Jon sent a brother south hoping his singing would win members. So it is "plausible" he was there, imo.

And no, the belief Rhaegar did, is central to the books. Eddard never once confirms that Rhaegar took Lyanna or that he raped her, or that he had a kid with her. So we have no first hand confirmation to any of it.

Qhorin laughs at those same vows, so that's not evidence in your favor for your argument. He tell's Jon they're just word to keep them warm. And why is Jon the only one who can infiltrate them? Why would he think the son of Mance's enemy would be welcome? Qhorin and Mance shouldn't know of any theory that Rhaegar is Jon's father. They would think Jon was Eddards' son. 

[AlaskanSandman]

7 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You tell us. This is your fan fic.

If i was going with my own fan fic, rather than questioning and trying to figure out what happened. I would just say Arthur Dayne is Jon's father and Dawn is his, but he's going to kill Dany with it and side with the Others and lead them hahah

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why would Mance need to mention it? Yoren didn't mention it either, yet some one had to be that Black brother. Why mention one there? 

If it's relevant in any way, you need clues. If there's no mention anywhere about who this black brother was, it's because it has no relevance to the plot.

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And you really think Aemon and Brendyn never discussed prophecy on their long time together at the wall? 

They probably did. They probably discussed many things.

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yes, i know that's how they communicate. Still doesn't change the fact that Bloodraven uses those ravens, and him and Aemon served together for a long time and likely spoke manyyyy times. Whether Aemon realized Bloodraven was privy to those messages, idk. That is where im speculating and questioning.

But everything here is speculation, starting w/ your claim that Bloodraven skinchanged into every raven Aemon ever sent or received. 

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And how is it a symbol for House Reed and House Stark? Since when do they emblazon images of weirwood trees on things? Find me one evidence for this claim.

A symbol of the Old Gods of the Starks and Reeds. 

4 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And why does Mance need to mention it for it to work? There was a Black brother there, and Mance served at the time. Plus Jon sent a brother south hoping his singing would win members. So it is "plausible" he was there, imo.

It's not impossible, but that's a far cry from being plausible.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

But everything here is speculation, starting w/ your claim that Bloodraven skinchanged into every raven Aemon ever sent or received. 

1000 eyes and 1? Not within the realms of impossible. He's got nothing but time.

1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

A symbol of the Old Gods of the Starks and Reeds.

I read what he said haha i get what he means, but still. Where is proof that it's used as a symbol. Where do the Starks or Reeds use it as a symbol any where's else? They already have sigils and none are of a weirwood. Plus we never see Jojen, Meera, Bran, Arya, Jon, Sansa, Robb, or Rickon ever use a weirwood as a symbol either. Like Martin giving us an example of Arya undercover but using a weirwood blazoned as her sigil. They identify with being wolves. Mance possibly coming from WhiteTree, that is even named after it's tree, is much more reason to use it as your sigil, specially seeing as you dont' have one. Just my reasoning. Plus the tree at White tree has a gaping mouth like the laughing tree. It just seems more evident than a Stark or a Reed. Specially when Jojen refers to him as a male multiple times. Implying either Howland or another male. Not Lyanna. The Laughing tree though makes me think of White Tree though.

 

7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's not impossible, but that's a far cry from being plausible.

Possibly. I was told the same about Alysanne cheating on Jaehaerys at Queen's Crown though, and the clues are building. Im not giving up hope yet hahaha Tin foil firmly mounted

[Jeeves]

16 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lmk your thoughts on Mance and Craster and who their parent's could be. Could Mance be tied up in Harrenhal some how? If so, how? 

Okay.  My thoughts.

You forgot an important figure.  The Night's King.  He was a Stark.  The old lady who killed the man at the heart tree was a Stark.  The Starks are devout to the Old Gods.  So who are the cruel gods that Craster prays to?  The Old Gods.  The god of the Starks.  The NK sacrificed his own children.  Something was special about these kids.  The NK and Craster are from the same family, Stark.  How do you control the walking dead?  Mind control through skinchanging.  The Starks carry these abilities too.

Mance Rayder was at Harrenhal.  Anybody who was somebody was there.  Excepting Lord Tywin.  Maybe he deflowered a few girls.  That's his style.  Lyanna might have been one of them.  Getting pregnant and birthing a bastard will end her marriage engagement to Robert.  I do not see additional roles for Mance beyond this.  His actions back at the wall is proof that that he valued his personal freedom more than he did his duties.  That is not a man with a mission.  He was always ditching his duties to sleep with the prostitutes.  

Craster was about sixty during the great ranging.  Aemon was around 100 at the time.  The maester was past his prime when Craster was conceived.  I also doubt that a maester would venture too far on the other side of the wall.  Banging a broad and leaving her to fend for herself is not like Aemon.  

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, The First Bloodrider said:

Okay.  My thoughts.

You forgot an important figure.  The Night's King.  He was a Stark.  The old lady who killed the man at the heart tree was a Stark.  The Starks are devout to the Old Gods.  So who are the cruel gods that Craster prays to?  The Old Gods.  The god of the Starks.  The NK sacrificed his own children.  Something was special about these kids.  The NK and Craster are from the same family, Stark.  How do you control the walking dead?  Mind control through skinchanging.  The Starks carry these abilities too.

Mance Rayder was at Harrenhal.  Anybody who was somebody was there.  Excepting Lord Tywin.  Maybe he deflowered a few girls.  That's his style.  Lyanna might have been one of them.  Getting pregnant and birthing a bastard will end her marriage engagement to Robert.  I do not see additional roles for Mance beyond this.  His actions back at the wall is proof that that he valued his personal freedom more than he did his duties.  That is not a man with a mission.  He was always ditching his duties to sleep with the prostitutes.  

Craster was about sixty during the great ranging.  Aemon was around 100 at the time.  The maester was past his prime when Craster was conceived.  I also doubt that a maester would venture too far on the other side of the wall.  Banging a broad and leaving her to fend for herself is not like Aemon.  

Well who are they praying to when they pray to the trees? Who hears their prayers? Bloodraven. 

So keep that in the mix either way

I do agree Mance preferred his freedom and may have just been sleeping around. Though i do also think, because Mance likely went back to his life, he didn't know he knocked up Lyanna till he saw Jon at Winterfell, who looks just like Lyanna. With Mance leaving the watch sometime after this. 

And agreed, i do see some age problems with Aemon fathering Mance, but being 40 and having a kid is totally possible for a male with a younger woman. Meaning Craster is totally possible.

This is why i've wondered about Mance being one of Crasters kids. Maybe his first child, before he started giving them to the Others. Or maybe before he started incest? Though Craster isn't a Black Brother. He is the son of one and helps them, but not one him self. So i do see problems which is why im not presenting this as a theory but rather a series of weird clues that may or may not be connected.