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Craster, Mance, BR, Aemon, Rhaegar, and Harrenhal.


AlaskanSandman

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On 10/2/2018 at 2:37 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

 

I can't tell if your all being sincere or not. But yes, i know im crazy for many of my thoughts, like Bael being real and a sign of Valyrian activity in the North prior to Aegon, or that Alysanne cheated at Queen's Crown. Im running with it though 

I no I’m being completely sincere. I usually find your threads refreshing. Don’t always agree with the conclusion or exactly how you go to it but still. If there is a relation between Craster and Mance it could explain mance hasn’t decided to have the man killed for his transgressions(giving aid to the watch, mutilating a messenger sent by mance).  Yet he doesn’t as if doing so is too dangerous as if knows Craster’s sons would come. If mance is privy that Craster is in cahoots with the others, however I imagine Mance would still try to kidnap and torture Craster for information. 

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3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I no I’m being completely sincere. I usually find your threads refreshing. Don’t always agree with the conclusion or exactly how you go to it but still. 

Hahah thank you very much. I know many of us wont see eye to eye on everything but its really nice to hear from people that still enjoy your crazy post :) 

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10 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I no I’m being completely sincere. I usually find your threads refreshing. Don’t always agree with the conclusion or exactly how you go to it but still. If there is a relation between Craster and Mance it could explain mance hasn’t decided to have the man killed for his transgressions(giving aid to the watch, mutilating a messenger sent by mance).  Yet he doesn’t as if doing so is too dangerous as if knows Craster’s sons would come. If mance is privy that Craster is in cahoots with the others, however I imagine Mance would still try to kidnap and torture Craster for information. 

Well what i find weird too is this

Quote

A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods.[1]

- Craster to the Night's Watch

It's not the first they have talked

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yet Jon sends Allister on a ranging. Guess he's just flexible like that hahah 

Not sure what's so funny. :dunno:

Mormont sent Thorne to EbtS, and that was back in ASoS. Ser Endrew Tarth took over as master-at-arms at CB. After Tarth dies at the Bridge of Skulls, Iron Emmett is named master-at-arms. And when Jon gives him command of Long Barrow, Leathers becomes the new master-at-arms. Thorne eventually returns to CB, accompanying Slynt and bringing reinforcements from EbtS, but he is not longer the master-at-arms. So, when Jon sends him north of the Wall, he is sending a ranger, nothing more. 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not sure what's so funny. :dunno:

Mormont sent Thorne to EbtS, and that was back in ASoS. Ser Endrew Tarth took over as master-at-arms at CB. After Tarth dies at the Bridge of Skulls, Iron Emmett is named master-at-arms. And when Jon gives him command of Long Barrow, Leathers becomes the new master-at-arms. Thorne eventually returns to CB, accompanying Slynt and bringing reinforcements from EbtS, but he is not longer the master-at-arms. So, when Jon sends him north of the Wall, he is sending a ranger, nothing more. 

So obviously peoples positions can be changed and are not set in stone

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17 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So obviously peoples positions can be changed and are not set in stone

So, your  argument was that Jon had sent a master-at-arms on a ranging, so a ranger could have been sent on a recruiting mission. When I proved to you Thorne wasn't a master-at-arms anymore, you switch to a generic response. 

 I get it, you will cling to any shred of hope that this idea of yours is spot on. 

Have at it, and have fun. :cheers:

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

So, your  argument was that Jon had sent a master-at-arms on a ranging, so a ranger could have been sent on a recruiting mission. When I proved to you Thorne wasn't a master-at-arms anymore, you switch to a generic response. 

 I get it, you will cling to any shred of hope that this idea of yours is spot on. 

Have at it, and have fun. :cheers:

That's just non sense and smug, but go on patting your self on your own back.

You dont know that Mance was a Ranger at that time, only that he became one. Allister wasn't always a ranger, but he became one. Daeron wasn't always a recruiter, but he became one. 

But sure, you know Mance's whole service record LMAO 

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In mine own opinion If Mance went to Harrenhal I believe it was for one reason, to see just how good of a singer Rhaegar was with his own ears and to potentially challenge the Crown Prince with his own vocal skills. We know Mance thinks a lot of his voice, he even went to Winterfell to show off his skills to Bobby B when he serenaded him. He brags that he is a king and that he is his own bard, meaning he believes his vocal talent is good enough to be in the presence of and entertain kings like himself, Robert, and potentially Aerys and Rhaegar. However when he got to Harrenhal and heard Rhaegar's angelic voice he was shamed knowing he was and never would be on Rhaegar's level. When Jon first meets him Mance is singing, not fighting or ruling around the other wildings, I doubt that was a coincidence. Being a bard is how Mance sneaks into Winterfell and other places. I believe that's how Mance ultimately sees himself, as a bard who was forced to do many other things.

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42 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

In mine own opinion If Mance went to Harrenhal I believe it was for one reason, to see just how good of a singer Rhaegar was with his own ears and to potentially challenge the Crown Prince with his own vocal skills. We know Mance thinks a lot of his voice, he even went to Winterfell to show off his skills to Bobby B when he serenaded him. He brags that he is a king and that he is his own bard, meaning he believes his vocal talent is good enough to be in the presence of and entertain kings like himself, Robert, and potentially Aerys and Rhaegar. However when he got to Harrenhal and heard Rhaegar's angelic voice he was shamed knowing he was and never would be on Rhaegar's level. When Jon first meets him Mance is singing, not fighting or ruling around the other wildings, I doubt that was a coincidence. Being a bard is how Mance sneaks into Winterfell and other places. I believe that's how Mance ultimately sees himself, as a bard who was forced to do many other things.

Lol that made me laugh but was good too. He is definitely referred to as tricksy by Tormund who claims he can out fight Mance. Makes me wonder how he earned Tormunds loyalty. Tricked Tormund into admitting he's a big bag of gas? haha 

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Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

Im a lil confused on what's so special about Mance to warrant being raised by the Watch. Was his father stationed at the same castle? "I shall father no children" apparently is more of a guide line than a rule? 

This, seems a point that’s over-looked. One imagines there are brothers to which have aired bastards upon some the women of mole town in its history but we don’t really hear of any bastards being adopted and raised like Mance was said to be. Truth be told his very presence would show to big a flaunting of the rules.

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5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This, seems a point that’s over-looked. One imagines there are brothers to which have aired bastards upon some the women of mole town in its history but we don’t really hear of any bastards being adopted and raised like Mance was said to be. Truth be told his very presence would show to big a flaunting of the rules.

Agreed, and a little hypocritical to call Mance an Oathbreaker when his very presence at the wall is a breach of the Oath.

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7 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This, seems a point that’s over-looked. One imagines there are brothers to which have aired bastards upon some the women of mole town in its history but we don’t really hear of any bastards being adopted and raised like Mance was said to be. Truth be told his very presence would show to big a flaunting of the rules.

I can't look past the fact that Bloodraven came to the wall with a couple hundred men. That's a mini army at your back, a lot of votes in your favor, and a serious weapon at your disposal. That's a serious over abuse of power at the Wall imo

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51 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This, seems a point that’s over-looked. One imagines there are brothers to which have aired bastards upon some the women of mole town in its history but we don’t really hear of any bastards being adopted and raised like Mance was said to be. Truth be told his very presence would show to big a flaunting of the rules.

So if Mance's father say was L.C., and Mance stayed long enough to make it to L.C. Wouldn't this become a serious problem? Not saying his father was, but as a "RANGER", he is making special visits with Qhorgyle to Winterfell for some reason. 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

"Tell him what you will," said Maester Aemon, gently. "He will smile, nod, and forget. Thirty years ago Ser Wynton Stout came within a dozen votes of being Lord Commander. He would have made a fine one. Ten years ago he would still have been capable. No longer. You know that as well as Donal did, Jon."

Jeor became L.C. in 288 when Qhorgyle died. Qhorgyle then must have won in 270ac.

Bloodraven was lost beyond the Wall in 252Ac. So there would have been a new L.C. in 252Ac., who ruled for 18 years till 270.

 

Is it possible that with a standing army, ties to the Throne, a Maester there with him and is family, that Bloodraven made the position of L.C. hereditary?

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I don't think Mance can be BR's son, because he is simply too young. BR 'disappeared' in 252AC, we are told, at the age of 78.

Now look what John says about Mance:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath."

"I remember," said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes . . . "You swore not to tell."

"And kept my vow. That one, at least."

And what Mance says about his trips to Winterfell (first with LC Qorgyle, then to see Robert):

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode."

So both Jon and Mance believe that Mance is 'young' in comparison to Eddard (because no kids at the age Jon first met Mance will ever think of their own parents as 'young'). Eddard was born in 263AC - 11 years after BR had fled the Wall - and if Mance was born even later, why would anyone think him a son of a Black Brother if his father was the octogenarian, missing-presumed-dead, Bloodraven? They wouldn't.

For this age difference to be remarked upon - that Mance was young compared to Eddard - would probably put the gap at 5 years or more. If that's so, then Mance would have been about 13 at the time of Harrenhal, so another reeason why he wouldn't be there, as well.

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21 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So if Mance's father say was L.C., and Mance stayed long enough to make it to L.C. Wouldn't this become a serious problem? Not saying his father was, but as a "RANGER", he is making special visits with Qhorgyle to Winterfell for some reason. 

L.C would be a prime canidate given he’d be the to which would have the authority to allow Mance to stay at Catstle black. Honestly though at the very least it’s likely someone in the watch’s high command. Which in turn Mance would almost certainly be nobleman’s bastard. Perhaps that is why Mel sensed a kingly nature about the man. Given Mance is in his 30s one person who could possibly  shed light on the controversy surrounding his adoption is well Clydas, Aemon’s assistant given he’s remarked upon as looking around 60 it’s probable he joined as a young man thus should recall at least some rumors surrounding why Mance was allowed to stay at the time.

On 10/3/2018 at 3:58 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Well what i find weird too is this

It's not the first they have talked

You know thinking that old theory of Val being the Night’s Queen(to which I’m sure someone deconstruct as patently false), perhaps Mance doesn’t move against Craster because he’s been turned? Leaving Craster unharmed genuinely seems to be strange given the man has attacked one of Mance’s followers and is known to give aid to the Watch.

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19 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Jeor became L.C. in 288 when Qhorgyle died. Qhorgyle then must have won in 270ac.

Bloodraven was lost beyond the Wall in 252Ac. So there would have been a new L.C. in 252Ac., who ruled for 18 years till 270.

 

Is it possible that with a standing army, ties to the Throne, a Maester there with him and is family, that Bloodraven made the position of L.C. hereditary?

This is the best question in the thread.  My take is I don't put anything past Rivers' ambitions.  I don't think Aemon would have supported that pursuit, and although it's not revealed in print, I doubt Aemon would have been pleased with Rivers' killing of Aenys Blackfyre, on any level.  Still, when you look at Rivers' service as Hand in King's Landing, and murdering Aenys to secure Targaryan rule on the throne, I wonder if he'd see making the Watch LC a hereditary Targ/Blackfyre title as an extension of his duties to his Targaryan relatives.  The guy had weird motivations.

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