Craster, Mance, BR, Aemon, Rhaegar, and Harrenhal.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 6:05 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Maybe it was always Bloodraven's plan to go to the Wall at some point and travel beyond it to find out its secrets and magics. That offing a Blackfyre claimant was just a bonus for him if he always planned on going to the Wall to figure out what was going on in the deep North. 

It seems like these men had a cult like dedication towards Bloodraven. So I'm sure they'd do just about anything he ordered them to do and would always be more loyal towards him than their new LC when they first arrived at the Wall. Add that Brynden had been a hand to multiple kings for many years and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of power struggle between him and whoever was the LC when he arrived. I doubt Bloodraven fancied taking orders from someone he'd viewed as an inferior leader.

True there was some of the Raven's Teeth going to the with old BR , but some were prisoners and others was recruits .

[Dorian Martell's son]

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Where better to come for slaves than beyond the wall?

Literally anywhere closer to the freehold but I will humor you on this one. 

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

From the proverbial Horse him self.

And no mystery really, should be pretty obvious, but to add timing and evidence.

Look at you finding actual real confirmation of something. There is hope for you yet. 

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

From Jon, talking to Qhorin before meeting Ygritte and hearing her version of the tale.

See, this isn't so hard. Here you are, taking relevant info from the books to form an idea. 

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

From Ygritte, which lines up wth 

She is an illiterate wildling. She names him but her timeline can't be trusted. 

 

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

What Yandel says. So that's three sources, not connected, all in agreement.

So, now you find Yandel credible? what about "Was he there, did he see it?"
You can't have it both ways. Either Yandel is a plot device to convey info to the reader, or he can't be trusted as he did no witness it himself. So, If Yandel is trustworthy, so are others. 

 

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Meaning Bael, who is possibly Valyrian, was around the time Valyria took Dragonstone and Hardhome was burned. MY guess, is Valyria did it.

I appreciate that you used possibly. So, the next question is why would the freehold devastate the one wildling town? What was in it for them?  Also, the description of ash raining down for half a year is not something that would result from arson. That would be volcanic in nature. A village burned by dragons would stop burning after a few days max. Also, If Bael was from the freehold, why wasn't his single most defining feature, his silver hair, mentioned, anywhere?

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

And possibly, depending how much Valyrian blood was in the North to begin with. House Mormont may be tied to it too. In the same breath though, Rhaegar and Daenerys are hardly Valyrian according to GRRM so, meh. 

You are pre far off. Here is the deal. By even the closest date on your timeline, one Valyrian, even taking over the stark bloodline would not add anything to the genepool after 700 years. That valyrian blood would be so dilute as to not matter. Aslo, Rhaegar and Dany, despite the recent influx of dornish blood are so inbred that they are essentially pure blooded valyrian.  

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

And yes, i have read the excerpt, i was quite pleased that it's lining up with my theories so far. 

How so? If a dragon won't fly north of the wall, how could the freehold have possibly burned hardhome? 

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Have you "read" the books good ser?

I love how you ask this like i haven't been providing you quotes from the book and completing the quotes that you purposefully misquote because they would contradict your fan fic.  
 

 

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 

Edit - "You know nothing", "The North Remembers"

 

Edit Edit- Notice Alleric didn't get ate or burned when approaching Silverwing. Blood of the Dragon.

Or, Silverwing is well trained and Alleric was not a threat. A dragon would be a useless tool to rule with if it ate every single non targ that approached it. So no. Nice try though. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No body saw him who knew him or recognized him. Even Lord Eddard after having met him before. 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

Jon's eyes widened in disbelief. "That can't be so."

"It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode."

 

So, there you go. Again. If you had read the books instead of making theories based on crackpot you read here, you would find that the books literally explains what happened. But then, if nobody saw mance there, how did we know he was there. Sources are so unreliable after all.  

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Have you considered watching tv instead? hahah

I'm serious. The scope and content limitations would make this go far easier. I would not have to do the heavy lifting for you, proving quotes and all. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

No, i simply started with a question towards the (one of many) idea of the three of them in correspondence. You started nit picking the details of how and i threw out the ravens. YOU started quibbling over the ravens reading them and the logic and i simply said that they dont have to read them, Aemon is blind and would have everything read out loud any ways. 

I am merely responding to your poorly thought out fan fic. I appreciate that you admit you have no idea about what you are talking about. That admission at the beginning would have made all of this better. Starting with "I really have no idea what I am talking about, but I have a crazy crack-foil theory" would have completely changed the nature of this discussion 

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And so, you can't be Westerosi and Valyrian? Or Westerosi and Andal? Wildlings can't be made up of other groups? Even though some are blonde, some brown hair, some red hair. The Wildlings can't have Andals among them either? Mance can have Valyrian blood and still be a Wildling. Thats just silly to argue against. 

No It is not. The Valyrians were specifically made very distinct looking to drive home their magical nature. They weren't like westerosis' that basically lived a medieval and a few people practiced magic. The freehold was entirely based on magic. So beyond the wall, where everyone is mostly first men blood with a some andal closer to the wall (or pure first men in the case of the Thenn,)  someone as legendary as a King beyond the wall that fathered a child on a Stark daughter would be recognized as having silver hair when literally nobody else had that hair color. I suppose you could bring up hair dye, this is your fan fic after all. 

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And what son playing in a tent are you talking about????

You have to up your reading comprehension for this one. Hint: It is directly above this in the reply I wrote it in. That is why I format my replies like this. It is extra work, but it is there to help people like you

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And are you serious? Because, even though he knew what Mance was up to for the most part, he needed to get Jon to Mance. Hence why he would take the mission, aside from the obvious, because he was told to by a superior commander and unless he wants to give up the gig, he has to play along. 

My reply was about what you considered worthy as a source, but now it seems you are saying Qhorin was somehow in league with mance, or controlled by bloodraven and took the mission to get Jon to Mance. If so, why are you Just bringing it up now? =

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The information he wants relayed back to Mormont has to do with Jon seeing Mance's armies via his wolf, ousting Jon to Mormont as a warg. Or confirming. Also that the Old powers are waking again and that the Tree's have eyes again...

 I am glad you agree with me now, even though you vehemently disagreed with me a few days ago. The fact that you can change your opinion when presented with a quote from the books means there is hope for you yet. 
It was also informing the LC that the watches original purpose is once again paramount. Don't forget that part.

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

What does anyyyyy of this have to do with Mance????

It started off as a reason why Mance being tKotLT was rubbish. The rest is me replying to all of the tangents that you now admit you just toss around willy nilly. If you can't follow this, try putting thought into your posts and replies. Then maybe your theories will make sense and won't come off as fan fic

[Dorian Martell's son]

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I thought it was good

I am sure you did...........

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yes, i know Martin does little narrative beats like what you mention. Is there any information important to Jon in Sansa's chapters though? Is there anything important to Sansa in Jon's? The people character arks are mostly serviced with in their own chapters or characters close by. 

Yes, but you did no use the "Important" qualifier.  Moving the goalposts  mid-game is bullshit  

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And yes, he went to the Wall after the war, after some unknown circumstance. Why not before? Why not right after Harrenhal? He had a month. How much time does he need? What makes you think his father would let him? He's young, horny, at Harrenhal with a bunch of young beautiful women and the son or a Lord. I dont see why he would be thinking about the Watch then.

Benjen was a child. Not "young and horny."  In game, Benjen specifically tells jon to wait and maybe get some sex experience before comitting to a life of celibacy. Sounds like advice  from personal experience to me. 

[AlaskanSandman]

11 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

Any particular reason why speed is less use north of the Wall ? You should let the NW know, they could save loads of treasure and effort if only they knew not to send men out mounted for ranging.....

No, it doesn't read as though Mance had a stable south of the Wall, because he says he took a purse of silver to BUY a horse south of the Wall. And unlikely as it sounds, we're told repeatedely that wildlings climb the Wall very often, even taking captured maids back North with them. We're told that's what happens by the characters that do it; we're told that's what happens by the characters trying to stop them doing it; and we're told that's what happens by the characters who suffer as a result of them doing it. If you can't believe it, your problem. Argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy.

Non sequitur.

 

@AlaskanSandman Given the above, when Mance was in a sharing mood a) why would he not mention having met Eddard TWICE before (Winterfell and Harrenhal) and b) why would he believe that Benjen, who also saw the Black Brother at Harrenhal, wouldn't know him by sight?

Why doesn't Aemon mention coming to the Wall with BR and 200 armed soldiers? Why doesn't Mance mention his father was a Black Brother? Why does Mance say he found the Horn of Joramun and Ygritte said he didn't. 
Perhaps, cause he's feeding Jon information as he want's him to know it. Some of which aren't even true. 

Why? Why trust Jon with so much? Why would he spill his entire history? 

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The Valyrians were specifically made very distinct looking to drive home their magical nature.

Huh? Since when? Can you back this up? Or is this like most of your rambling, merely your narrow opinion. You can ramble on pretty good though, ill give you that hahah do i care? Not really, least of all to back track to figure out what your talking about. 

 

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You are pre far off. Here is the deal. By even the closest date on your timeline, one Valyrian, even taking over the stark bloodline would not add anything to the genepool after 700 years. That valyrian blood would be so dilute as to not matter. Aslo, Rhaegar and Dany, despite the recent influx of dornish blood are so inbred that they are essentially pure blooded valyrian.  

Again, just more of your rambling opinions. Which is all good, but you run on and on like your view is fact. When it hardly is.

The Fm may or may not be of Valyrian origin, or the origin of Valyria. Plus, depending on how many people invaded the north, plus how far they spread their seed, plus other factors, the blood in the North could be stronger than in House Targaryen. And just Martell blood???? You sure about that?? No Daynes, Blackwoods, or anyyy one else huh? Got it, glad your here to clear these things up lol

Valyrian created to have silver hair? Hmmm, ok. What proof do you even have that all Valyrians had silver hair? We have plenty that dont in the books. But i guess we'll ignore those guys. 

3 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The rest is me replying to all of the tangents that you now admit you just toss around willy nilly. If you can't follow this, try putting thought into your posts and replies.

Your comprehension truly does suck and iv'e grown more than bored with you now. This isn't a theory, it's open questioning, while asking others their views on what happened. (Whether or not your like my views) Your rude opinion on this being a theory is clearly not comprehending, refusing to, or just flat out not caring and rambling on rudely any ways. Even when compelling facts are brought up you act like a rude jerk consistently. Cause you suddenly know for fact that SilverWing 'Cant" fly beyond the wall or around it. Thankfully for the forum for your to clear up these mysteries for us in your infinite knowledge. Ill let your peanut gallery enjoy your "thoughtful opinions".  As for me, ive officially lost interest in talking to you. Ill talk to the other people more respectful when disagreeing on their interpretations of the text or asking open questions. You zealot "truthers" get ridiculous in your approach and attitude. Can't present counter clues or views respectfully and constructively, dont expect a reply from me from any more. Good luck to you and your exploration of the novels.  

[Dorian Martell's son]

48 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Huh? Since when? Can you back this up? Or is this like most of your rambling, merely your narrow opinion. You can ramble on pretty good though, ill give you that hahah do i care? Not really, least of all to back track to figure out what your talking about. 

From a 2013 not a blog post

Quote

 

Speaking of Valyria... right from the start I wanted the Targaryens, and by extension the Valryians from whom they were descended, to be a race apart, with distinctive features that set them apart from the rest of Westeros, and helped explain their obsession with the purity of their blood. To do this, I made a conventional 'high fantasy' choice, and gave them silver-gold hair, purple and violet eyes, fine chiseled aristocratic features. That worked well enough, at least in the books (on the show, less so).

But in recent years, it has occured to me from time to time that it might have made for an interesting twist if instead I had made the dragonlords of Valyria... and therefore the Targaryens... black. Maybe I could have kept the silver hair too, though... no, that comes too close to 'dark elf' territory, but still... if I'd had dark-skinned dragonlords invade and conquer and dominate a largely white Westeros... though that choice would have brought its own perils. The Targaryens have not all been heroic, after all... some of them have been monsters, madmen, so...

Well, it's all moot. The idea came to me about twenty years too late.

 

 

48 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Again, just more of your rambling opinions. Which is all good, but you run on and on like your view is fact. When it hardly is.

You ramble and throw things around to the point that you are confused by my replies, and then accuse me of rambling? Just like your next bit. Golden. Really. 

48 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The Fm may or may not be of Valyrian origin, or the origin of Valyria. 

The kindly man says the first FM was someone in the mines under the 14 flames. So, being in Valyria, the FM have a Valyrian origin. But I guess he wasn't there so how would he know? 

48 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Plus, depending on how many people invaded the north, plus how far they spread their seed, plus other factors, the blood in the North could be stronger than in House Targaryen.

Let's not throw out more stuff without thinking. You got confused on a few of my replies. 

48 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

And just Martell blood???? You sure about that?? No Daynes, Blackwoods, or anyyy one else huh? Got it, glad your here to clear these things up lolNot 

You forgot the Arryns. 

48 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Valyrian created to have silver hair? Hmmm, ok. What proof do you even have that all Valyrians had silver hair? We have plenty that dont in the books. But i guess we'll ignore those guys. 

Every single one  described without a non-valyrian parent. Prove me wrong. I at least will admit it.  

48 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Your comprehension truly does suck and iv'e grown more than bored with you now. 

cool story bro

49 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This isn't a theory, it's open questioning,

You literally wrote an entire sub story involving the king beyond the wall being tKotLT when he was in the watch. It sure looks like a theory 

51 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Your rude opinion on this being a theory is clearly not comprehending, refusing to, or just flat out not caring and rambling on rudely any ways. Even when compelling facts are brought up you act like a rude jerk consistently.

That really hurts. Especially after all the quotes i provided and finished for you. No love  

57 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Cause you suddenly know for fact that SilverWing 'Cant" fly beyond the wall or around it. 

Won't. And yes, it was in the excerpt 

58 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Thankfully for the forum for your to clear up these mysteries for us in your infinite knowledge.

Don't forget providing and completing quotes to provide refutation of crackpot.

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ill let your peanut gallery enjoy your "thoughtful opinions".  

Who are they? 

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

  As for me, ive officially lost interest in talking to you. Ill talk to the other people more respectful when disagreeing on their interpretations of the text or asking open questions. You zealot "truthers" get ridiculous in your approach and attitude. Can't present counter clues or views respectfully and constructively, dont expect a reply from me from any more. Good luck to you and your exploration of the novels.  

Or, read the books.
Well, it's been fun. 

[AlaskanSandman]

For those else reading i will mention to keep in mind regarding Valyrians and their appearance. This is due to them taking up inbreeding presumably to keep control over the dragons. As we have seen numerous times in the novels, soon as they sleep with some one out side of their family, these features of silver hair and purple eyes become lost quickly. So no, the Wildlings need not have silver hair to have the blood of Valyria in them. 

In no way am in suggesting that Mance or any other wildling has enough of the blood of Valyria to control dragons. I believe quite the opposite. 

Further, based on Daenerys barely having the blood of Aegon, do not believe who her parents are matters to how she hatched dragons. I believe Daenerys' blood was bound to dragons anew by Mirri probably by accident. Meaning, it doesnt matter if Dany has much Valyrian in her or not. What likely matters more, is how much greenseerer genes she has in her. Mixed with a dash of blood magic by Mirri and some fire magic by Dany and boom, dragons. 
 

The Blood of Valyria in the North i suspect to have more to do with the Others than dragons. Either way, point is, the North need not have silver hair to have the blood of Valyria. 

[AlaskanSandman]

Idk if relevant here yet, but something that has my attention and may relate into why may Mance "could hypothetically" have been at Harrenhal and what may have been the purpose. 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

Jon had come to that same realization. "As you say, Your Grace." He wondered where this king, was going.

"Whilst your brothers have been struggling to decide who shall lead them, I have been speaking with this Mance Rayder." He ground his teeth. "A stubborn man, that one, and prideful. He will leave me no choice but to give him to the flames. But we took other captives as well, other leaders. The one who calls himself the Lord of Bones, some of their clan chiefs, the new Magnar of Thenn. Your brothers will not like it, no more than your father's lords, but I mean to allow the wildlings through the Wall . . . those who will swear me their fealty, pledge to keep the king's peace and the king's laws, and take the Lord of Light as their god. Even the giants, if those great knees of theirs can bend. I will settle them on the Gift, once I have wrested it away from your new Lord Commander.When the cold winds rise, we shall live or die together. It is time we made alliance against our common foe." He looked at Jon. "Would you agree?"

"My father dreamed of resettling the Gift," Jon admitted. "He and my uncle Benjen used to talk of it." He never thought of settling it with wildlings, though . . . but he never rode with wildlings, either. He did not fool himself; the free folk would make for unruly subjects and dangerous neighbors. Yet when he weighed Ygritte's red hair against the cold blue eyes of the wights, the choice was easy. "I agree."

I wonder about when these conversations took place. Mance and Benjen should have an over lapse in service though Mance makes it seem like Eddard and Benjen don't know him. 
Who else could Benjen and Eddard had hoped to settle into the gift though? The Gift? Not the New Gift, the Gift. What Lords or extra Northerners were they hoping to settle in there? 

Speculating still, but could there have been a secret plan in place to settle the Wildlings, and that's why the wildlings were gathered already and Mance was making trips to Winterfell? Could Aemon, Rhaegar, Mance, and Eddard's father have been working on something? Where did Benjen and Eddard get this idea? 

Total speculation mind you but i find it interesting.

[AlaskanSandman]

40 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

Jon had come to that same realization. "As you say, Your Grace." He wondered where this king, was going.

"Whilst your brothers have been struggling to decide who shall lead them, I have been speaking with this Mance Rayder." He ground his teeth. "A stubborn man, that one, and prideful. He will leave me no choice but to give him to the flames. But we took other captives as well, other leaders. The one who calls himself the Lord of Bones, some of their clan chiefs, the new Magnar of Thenn. Your brothers will not like it, no more than your father's lords, but I mean to allow the wildlings through the Wall . . . those who will swear me their fealty, pledge to keep the king's peace and the king's laws, and take the Lord of Light as their god. Even the giants, if those great knees of theirs can bend. I will settle them on the Gift, once I have wrested it away from your new Lord Commander.When the cold winds rise, we shall live or die together. It is time we made alliance against our common foe." He looked at Jon. "Would you agree?"

"My father dreamed of resettling the Gift," Jon admitted. "He and my uncle Benjen used to talk of it." He never thought of settling it with wildlings, though . . . but he never rode with wildlings, either. He did not fool himself; the free folk would make for unruly subjects and dangerous neighbors. Yet when he weighed Ygritte's red hair against the cold blue eyes of the wights, the choice was easy. "I agree."

Any plan by any one to place Jon with the Wildlings all to get him to "feel" for them more, seems rather flimsy since the choice came down to King Stannis. Something Jon has to dance around as not to anger Stannis, or his own men. I kind of question whether Jon would have made this decision on his own. Even after his time with them. 

Though Mance did seem hopeful his feelings towards Ygritte would sway him to their side supposedly, so there is that. That plan or hope was Mance's though and maybe Qhorin, who knew Jon wouldn't kill Ygritte. Problem is though, Jon wasn't L.C. and couldnt make any important call like that. Jeor Mormont would have had to make that call. 

So what ever Qhorin and Mance were up, is a rather strange game imo. 

Yes you can just say well Mormont ordered Qhorin to get information on what Mance is up to. Yet it's not that simple. When Qhorin finds some one, they dont' even torture her or press her hard for answers. Then Qhorin leaves Jon to not even kill her. So what was Qhorin thinking??

Then when they find "some" information from Jon seeing through Ghost, Qhorin orders what Jon saw and how he saw it to be reported to Mormont, and that the old powers are waking again, and that the trees have eye's. How any of that information ties into Mance gathering an army in the Frost Fangs or what he was searching for, is beyond my guess.

So all in all, Qhorin totally fails his mission of finding out what Mance was up to, and what information he does report back seems more to do about Jon and his warging. Yes Qhorin lets Jon kill him so he can infiltrate the Wildlings and get the intel, yet how could he know Jon would be allowed to join? How could he know Jon would find the info? How could he know Jon would return, or that the Watch wouldn't execute him as a deserter? 

Why not just beat it out of Ygritte? Seems a lot more effective and less risk and moving parts. 

And then what? Jon learns they were searching for the horn of Joramun, 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

Other wars. Yes. I must remember. "Jarman Buckwell said I might have need of my sword soon."

"Did he?" Mormont did not seem pleased. "Craster said much and more last night, and confirmed enough of my fears to condemn me to a sleepless night on his floor. Mance Rayder is gathering his people together in the Frostfangs. That's why the villages are empty. It is the same tale that Ser Denys Mallister had from the wildling his men captured in the Gorge, but Craster has added the where, and that makes all the difference."

"Is he making a city, or an army?"

A Clash of Kings - Jon V

Mormont plucked at his beard, frowning. "How?"

"How else? Sorcery." Qhorin bit the egg in half. "Why else would Mance choose to gather his strength in the Frostfangs? Bleak and hard they are, and a long weary march from the Wall."

"I'd hoped he chose the mountains to hide his muster from the eyes of my rangers."

 

So a couple things here. One, they could have found out the "where along time ago just simply talking to Craster", so why didn't Qhorin or Benjen just go to him to start with? Specially since he aids the watch?

Other thing, Qhorin tell's Mormont that Mance means to pass with sorcery. What else could he mean if not the Horn of Joramun? So what possible information is Qhorin meant to gain that they dont' already have?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon V

"Some power. What it is, our captive could not say. He was questioned perhaps too sharply, and died with much unsaid. I doubt he knew in any case."

Jon could hear the wind outside. It made a high thin sound as it shivered through the stones of the ringwall and tugged at the tent ropes. Mormont rubbed hismouth thoughtfully. "Some power," he repeated. "I must know."

"Then you must send scouts into the mountains."

"I am loath to risk more men."

"We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defense of the realm? I would send fifteen men, in three parties of five. One to probe the Milkwater, one the Skirling Pass, one to climb the Giant's Stair. Jarman Buckwell, Thoren Smallwood, and myself to command. To learn what waits in those mountains."

"Waits," the raven cried. "Waits."

Lord Commander Mormont sighed deep in his chest. "I see no other choice," he conceded, "but if you do not return . . ."

"Someone will come down out of the Frostfangs, my lord," the ranger said. "If us, all well and good. If not, it will be Mance Rayder, and you sit square in his path. He cannot march south and leave you behind, to follow and harry his rear. He must attack. This is a strong place."

So Qhorin acts like the person he questioned didn't likely know anything and that he killed him questioning him to hard. This seems' odd as the guy told you magic. What else could it be other than the horn? Why would he think Ygritte would know? This seems a reallyyyy flimsy plan that your going to waste lives all to implant Jon so he can learn more. Qhorin didn't even try to question any of the other wildlings, they just killed them. Qhorin sucks at his job, seriously. 

And "we can only die"??? Really? No, no you can't, you can rise again and be the worst nightmare ever to your brothers in the watch. You can become one of the enemies armies. Or is Qhorin totally oblivious of the Others? So why deplete your brothers as much as your allowed to go die, for knowledge you don't even seek on your mission??? Seems pretty lame planning on Qhorin's part. Perhaps Jiggles Bells should be Ranger. 

[AlaskanSandman]

On 10/4/2018 at 1:41 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

L.C would be a prime canidate given he’d be the to which would have the authority to allow Mance to stay at Catstle black. Honestly though at the very least it’s likely someone in the watch’s high command. Which in turn Mance would almost certainly be nobleman’s bastard. Perhaps that is why Mel sensed a kingly nature about the man. Given Mance is in his 30s one person who could possibly  shed light on the controversy surrounding his adoption is well Clydas, Aemon’s assistant given he’s remarked upon as looking around 60 it’s probable he joined as a young man thus should recall at least some rumors surrounding why Mance was allowed to stay at the time.

You know thinking that old theory of Val being the Night’s Queen(to which I’m sure someone deconstruct as patently false), perhaps Mance doesn’t move against Craster because he’s been turned? Leaving Craster unharmed genuinely seems to be strange given the man has attacked one of Mance’s followers and is known to give aid to the Watch.

Well either im crazy or Qorgyle has ties to Oberyn Martell. House Qorgyle is at Sandstone where Oberyn was fostered as a child. Oberyn born in 257/258, with Qorgyle becoming L.C. in 270. Leaves open Qorgyle being the Lord who fostered Oberyn or brother of said Lord. Perhaps the younger brother. The current Lord Qorgyle is named Quentyn just like Dorran's son. Arriane believe Sandstone will aid her in crowning Myrcella. There was also a Qorgyle in attendance with Oberyn at K.L. So Mance, if the son of Qorgyle, would be Dornish on his fathers side. We know Rhaegar was married to Elia but we do not know how close Rhaegar and Oberyn were to each other. Though Oberyn was at Harrenhal and so was Rhaegar. The Martells later have a plan to marry Viserys to Arriane. 

I cannot however find any ties between Bloodraven and Dorne. Least of all to House Qorgyle. Last mention of Qorgyles is during the Dance. 

So if Oberyn is up to anything, its one of his many mysteries. Along with Sarella, his friendship to Wyllas, ties to Marwyn or Mirri and more. Im still digging around to get a fuller picture of the events going on in the north.

[Asshai Backward]

The whole interaction between Qhorin and Mormont always struck me as odd.  Qhorin seems to be the one really calling the shots there.  The whole exchange seems staged in a way--like he's trying to feed Jon a whole song and dance.  No small coincidence that the mission Q chose for his team was the one to make contact.

The only possible excuse Mormont could have for abandoning the strategic advantage of the Wall would be the idea that some sort of Sorcery existed that had to be rooted out before the wildlings could use it.  Classic "WMD" stuff there.  Gosh, whatever advantages the watch had at the Fist would have been insignificant compared to the Wall.  Despite being mounted and trained, I just don't see how the Watch expected to win a battle against 20,000(?) wildlings in the open.  Inflict serious damage, yes, maybe.  But if Mance truly had the horn and meant to use it, as Mormont and Qhorin must have feared, I don't think their plan was going to effectively combat that possibility.

But, on the other hand, I guess that was maybe Qhorin's improvised plan, which Jon failed at--get himself embedded, and destroy the Horn.  Without the Horn, there is no way the wildlings get past the Wall...unless they do one of the many things Mance says he could do, like storm the Shadow Tower, swarm the wall in a dozen places, etc.

I'm still not sure why Mance didn't keep sending wildling over the wall where Jon went.  I mean, sure, send the strike team over, but the ropes are in place.  Why not keep sending men over?

I never thought about it, and maybe having Coldhands for an escort makes it moot anyway, but it sure made Bran's journey easier not having any Wildlings to worry about.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Asshai Backward said:

The whole interaction between Qhorin and Mormont always struck me as odd.  Qhorin seems to be the one really calling the shots there.  The whole exchange seems staged in a way--like he's trying to feed Jon a whole song and dance.  No small coincidence that the mission Q chose for his team was the one to make contact.

The only possible excuse Mormont could have for abandoning the strategic advantage of the Wall would be the idea that some sort of Sorcery existed that had to be rooted out before the wildlings could use it.  Classic "WMD" stuff there.  Gosh, whatever advantages the watch had at the Fist would have been insignificant compared to the Wall.  Despite being mounted and trained, I just don't see how the Watch expected to win a battle against 20,000(?) wildlings in the open.  Inflict serious damage, yes, maybe.  But if Mance truly had the horn and meant to use it, as Mormont and Qhorin must have feared, I don't think their plan was going to effectively combat that possibility.

But, on the other hand, I guess that was maybe Qhorin's improvised plan, which Jon failed at--get himself embedded, and destroy the Horn.  Without the Horn, there is no way the wildlings get past the Wall...unless they do one of the many things Mance says he could do, like storm the Shadow Tower, swarm the wall in a dozen places, etc.

I'm still not sure why Mance didn't keep sending wildling over the wall where Jon went.  I mean, sure, send the strike team over, but the ropes are in place.  Why not keep sending men over?

I never thought about it, and maybe having Coldhands for an escort makes it moot anyway, but it sure made Bran's journey easier not having any Wildlings to worry about.

Yea im still trying to look at everything said between them, strikes me as odd. Especially the information Qhorin want's sent back to Mormont. 

And yea the plans all seem terrible. Craster already tells them that they're gathering in the Frost Fangs. Why else would they be unless they were fixing to mount an attack? Your going to risk all your men to go to the fist, to search what magic the wildlings hope to use and fight them at the fist seems very stupid. As you say, the fist is a poor defense compared to the Wall. Suddenly the Watch believes in magic now too? They couldn't just already figure it was the Horn of Joramun? Qhorin also wants reported that the Tree's have eyes again and that the old powers are waking again. How does this pertain to Mance? All because Jon is a Warg? Jon is on their side and they already seem to know not to trust birds from the other side, indicating they are aware of Wargs. Varamyr's story confirms that they've been around for a while, didn't just pop up in Jon's time. 

Qorin's plan sounds terrible and he sounds eager to die and be free of the watch haha I just can't reason his logic. So flimsy. Like you said, pretty lucky that his team of the three made contact. 

And well, i believe Mance say's why, but that it's not what it seems at face value. Blood. Just like Bael, Mance can't face his son in Battle nor does he want to kill him and be a kin slayer. Just my tin foil. Other wise, there is no reason. Mance could take the wall, lose some men, and itd still be worth the loss to get past the Wall. Screw the Watch. 

And yes, that was quite fortunate huh? Also that Coldhand's just happened to pass the mutineers. 

[Rufus Snow]

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well either im crazy or Qorgyle has ties to Oberyn Martell. House Qorgyle is at Sandstone where Oberyn was fostered as a child. Oberyn born in 257/258, with Qorgyle becoming L.C. in 270. Leaves open Qorgyle being the Lord who fostered Oberyn or brother of said Lord.

There's an outside possibility, but I wouldn't put much weight on it.

1) Denys Mallister said at the last election that he had been Commander at the Shadow Tower for 33 years -  so he was in post in 267AC.

2) Even if we assume he was given that post immediately, he still didn't join the NW until 267AC, but in all likellihood he would have to work his way up, taking a few years at least.

3) During his reminiscences about previous elections he stated that Qorgyle was 'longer on the Wall'. For that to make any difference, or be worth noticing, it must be at least a year longer. So at the most optimistic assumption, Qorgyle might have joined the Watch in say 266AC, but it's more likely to be years earlier.

4) Even at this latest date of 266AC, Oberyn was only 8/9 years old.

5) Martell kids seem to stay at the Water Gardens beyond the age of 8, so there's a very very narrow window when LC Qorgyle might have been at Sandstone after Oberyn went there as ward.