How did the rumors about Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne start?

[Angel Eyes]

How and when did rumors about Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne start? Harrenhal? Royalist propaganda during Robert’s Rebellion? After Ned fought Arthur at the Tower of Joy and Ashara killed herself? And why were the rumors about Ned, why not Brandon, who attracts women like meat attracts flies?

[Darion Storm]

Unless I’ve missed something, the first time they meet is at Harrenhal, so that would be the origin.

As to why not Brandon, for the same reason as why not Benjen or any other man there, because she and Ned apparently hit it off, and not she and Brandon.

In my opinion it’s legit, Howland Reed wouldn’t include it in his account of the tourney if it was a rumour meant to dishonour Ned.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

They danced together at Harrenhal, then after Robert's Rebellion Ned heads of to Dorne and returns with a baby, and Ashara kills herself. Looking at that information from a normal perspective and not the god perspective we all have, it could be easy to presume that Jon Snow is Ashara's son, and that Ned and Ashara where in love. 

My biggest question is why does Allyria Dayne believe that the two of them where in love? I don't know how old she is, but she surely shouldn't be old enough to remember the two of them. So someone must have told her, but who? Presumably the Lord Dayne at the time. What does House Dayne get out of lying about the two of them loving each other? Surely nothing. 

[LindsayLohan]

When Selma said "dishonored" it could have been any of a number of reasons. It's be nice to have clarity, but I don't think he meant sexually.

[Bael's Bastard]

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

How and when did rumors about Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne start? Harrenhal? Royalist propaganda during Robert’s Rebellion? After Ned fought Arthur at the Tower of Joy and Ashara killed herself? And why were the rumors about Ned, why not Brandon, who attracts women like meat attracts flies?

I doubt there were rumors around the realm about Ned and Ashara just after the Harrenhal Tourney itself. I am guessing rumors around the realm about Ned and Ashara were projected back on the Harrenhal Tourney and circulated around the realm after Ned went to/left Starfall, and returned home with a bastard. At Starfall in particular, the Harrenhal Tourney tradition seems to be perpetuated by the Daynes themselves. It's not royalist propaganda, as Robert seems clueless about it, and Ned is pretty quick to shut down any rumors about he and Ashara. It would make sense that the rumors of a relationship and possibly a child (whether the one Ashara allegedly lost, or the one Ned brought home) were about Ned if they didn't begin until after he went to/left Starfall, as she killed herself after that, and not after the execution of Brandon a year or whatever earlier.

[The_Eagle_Lord19]

It certainly is a established rumor. Catelyn thinks Jon is her son and it traveled enough for cercei to believe that ashara is jobs mother so I think it's a pretty circulated rumor. Not only the kid but I believe barristan is talking about Ned when he says "stark". Barristan has a pretty strict honor code and considering the era its supposed to represent who knows how easy it is to dishonor a woman.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

I don't think it is only rumor.  Ned and Ashara had something going on.  Whether it resulted in Jon is up for debate.  

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I don't see boy scout Ned dishonoring a noble woman by sleeping with her when they were not even betrothed. If it was anyone I believe it was Brandon Stark as he seems to have no issues with sleeping with high born women he is not going to marry. We know he at least talked to Ashara on Ned's behave but did not ask for a dance himself. Why would he not want to dance with a beautiful girl like Ashara after Ned? Maybe it was because they didn't want to be seen together so closely in public as they were doing more then dancing and Brandon was betrothed. Also Barristan seems to like Ned well enough so I don't think Ned was the "Stark" Barristan was referring to when he thinks of Ashara being dishonored at Harrenhal. That just my opinion though.

[corbon]

6 hours ago, The_Eagle_Lord19 said:

It certainly is a established rumor. Catelyn thinks Jon is her son and it traveled enough for cercei to believe that ashara is jobs mother so I think it's a pretty circulated rumor. Not only the kid but I believe barristan is talking about Ned when he says "stark". Barristan has a pretty strict honor code and considering the era its supposed to represent who knows how easy it is to dishonor a woman.

It seems unlikely Barristan is talking about Ned there. More likely Brandon, who has history with that sort of thing, and was the person who actually asked Ashara to dance with super-shy baby brother Ned.

Quote

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

Barristan clearly respects Ned and is not afraid to side with him or defend him to both Robert and Dany. That doesn't gel well with blaming Ned for dishonouring the woman he loved and causing her death. 

Quote

Ser Barristan Selmy raised his pale blue eyes from the table and said, "Your Grace, there is honor in facing an enemy on the battlefield, but none in killing him in his mother's womb. Forgive me, but I must stand with Lord Eddard."

Quote

"Your Grace," said Selmy, "Eddard Stark played a part in your father's fall, but he bore you no ill will. When the eunuch Varys told us that you were with child, Robert wanted you killed, but Lord Stark spoke against it. Rather than countenance the murder of children, he told Robert to find himself another Hand."

 

I think its pretty clear that the rumours about Ned and Ashara started when Ned returned from Starfall with a bastard son and Ashara committed suicide. Its a pretty obvious 1+1 to an outsider, even though its probably not correct.

It is possible there were rumours involving the two of them from Harrenhal, but there are no hints of such rumours being around at that time other than Barristan's "looked to Stark", which fits Brandon better both in terms of character and of Barristan's attitude to Ned.

Frankly (and this is supposition/extrapolation only), I don't think anyone other than Howland Reed even really noticed Ned was at Harrenhal, metaphorically speaking. He was the super-shy non-entity 2nd son, when first Brandon the heir (competing in the jousting and doing well until falling to Rhaegar, then reacting badly to the QoLaB) and then Lyanna (QoLaB) were taking all the (Stark-ward) attention. Even Robert was hanging out with other mates (Ned made a very reliable wingman and foil  for Robert, but at such an event simply wouldn't have been that much fun for Robert, especially when doing the family thing).

14 years since the war ended is plenty enough time for N+A=J rumour to have circulated.

12 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

They danced together at Harrenhal, then after Robert's Rebellion Ned heads of to Dorne and returns with a baby, and Ashara kills herself. Looking at that information from a normal perspective and not the god perspective we all have, it could be easy to presume that Jon Snow is Ashara's son, and that Ned and Ashara where in love. 

My biggest question is why does Allyria Dayne believe that the two of them where in love? I don't know how old she is, but she surely shouldn't be old enough to remember the two of them. So someone must have told her, but who? Presumably the Lord Dayne at the time. What does House Dayne get out of lying about the two of them loving each other? Surely nothing. 

Note that although yes, they did dance together, Ashara danced with a bunch of other guys as well. And all of the others (than Ned) are much more established than shy second-son, heir to nothing, Ned.

Allyria Dayne is interesting. Judging by what little we know (6 yr long betrothal but not yet married to mid-twenties Lord Berric Dondarion), it seems likely she is very very much younger (possibly even Ashara's not-actually-stillborn daughter). I read her take as probably the girlish imaginings about a mysterious aunt(/mother) and the story of why said aunt(/mother) killed herself (or so she has been told) so many years ago.
Ned Dayne has no more clue and just takes Allyria's word for it without thought. It's 'fact' for him because its the story he's heard all his life, not because either he or Allyria actually know the truth.
I wouldn't assume Lord Dayne was the source of this 'knowledge'. It could just as easily be household servants passing on gossipy stories to the little ones.
So 1) this may not be the official story of House Dayne anyway, and 2) if its is, is what they gain from it is a reasonable cover story for 2a) Ashara's real suicide - its a tragic love story, which reflects slightly less poorly on their house, or 2b) Ashara's fake suicide

[Euron III Greyjoy]

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Note that although yes, they did dance together, Ashara danced with a bunch of other guys as well. And all of the others (than Ned) are much more established than shy second-son, heir to nothing, Ned.

Yes, if you look at the dance alone it means nothing, but none of those other men returned from Dorne, or more specifically Starfall, with a baby. Add that together with the dance at Harrenhal, and Ashara killing herself after Ned leaves with said baby, I think anyone could quite easily assume that there was something going on there. 

[rotting sea cow]

9 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I don't see boy scout Ned dishonoring a noble woman by sleeping with her when they were not even betrothed. If it was anyone I believe it was Brandon Stark as he seems to have no issues with sleeping with high born women he is not going to marry. We know he at least talked to Ashara on Ned's behave but did not ask for a dance himself. Why would he not want to dance with a beautiful girl like Ashara after Ned? Maybe it was because they didn't want to be seen together so closely in public as they were doing more then dancing and Brandon was betrothed. Also Barristan seems to like Ned well enough so I don't think Ned was the "Stark" Barristan was referring to when he thinks of Ashara being dishonored at Harrenhal. That just my opinion though.

Indeed. It is quite out of character having Ned sleeping with Ashara and not marrying her the day after (as Robb did with Jeyne). Furthermore, in all of his PoVs, Ned never thinks on Ashara despite her name being thrown in his face by Cersei. Yeah, I also think it was Brandon.

(What about Benjen? I know he was very young, but the comment about "fathering few bastards" is a bit weird taking into account he joined the Watch at, 16?)

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

17 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

What about Benjen? I know he was very young, but the comment about "fathering few bastards" is a bit weird taking into account he joined the Watch at, 16?

I'd take the line about fathering bastards as a casual comment. What he really meant was "get laid" before deciding to go celibate.

He was Stark at Winterfell during the rebellion, and pretty young at the Harrenhal tourney so I don't see how he could have ended up sleeping with Ashara.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

12 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

(What about Benjen? I know he was very young, but the comment about "fathering few bastards" is a bit weird taking into account he joined the Watch at, 16?)

It could be the final reason he joined the Watch. After Ashara rocked his young world Benjen knew no other woman would ever compare to the Dornish beauty so he was fine with being celibate for the rest of his days. 

[Bowen 747]

On 10/3/2018 at 8:03 AM, Angel Eyes said:

How and when did rumors about Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne start? Harrenhal? Royalist propaganda during Robert’s Rebellion? After Ned fought Arthur at the Tower of Joy and Ashara killed herself? And why were the rumors about Ned, why not Brandon, who attracts women like meat attracts flies?

Easy.  They're not just rumors.  They're true.  Those two had a thing going.  Ned has the Stark's famously long facial shape.  At least one of Jon's parents had to be a Stark for him to look like an oblong watermelon with a patch of hair.

[FictionIsntReal]

Ned's shy personality made me think it was less likely there was truth to the rumors, but when turtle-paced out that it would make for a thematic parallel with Catelyn (who expected to marry Brandon and had to settle for his colder younger brother) along with fitting some other evidence, I thought of a way to reconcile the two ideas (and Barristan's high opinion of Ned).

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 8:03 AM, Angel Eyes said:

How and when did rumors about Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne start? Harrenhal? Royalist propaganda during Robert’s Rebellion? After Ned fought Arthur at the Tower of Joy and Ashara killed herself? And why were the rumors about Ned, why not Brandon, who attracts women like meat attracts flies?

By Ned sleeping with Ashara . Sometimes a rumor isn't a rumor .

[Pontius Pilate]

Ashara was Eddard's first love.  She was just another piece of A to Brandon.  Brandon callously inserted himself between the two and could have gotten her pregnant.  But her pregnancy would not be confirmed until some time later.  Though that would not rule out a dishonor because Barristan was telling this story to young Dany many years into the future.  Barristan was looking back in time and memories compress time.  

Eddard was ever responsible and comforted Ashara even after she slept with his brother.  Eddard was born to suffer because he is the responsible sibling who had to pick up the broken pieces made by Brandon.  I believe Eddard was willing to say the child was his to protect her honor but his responsibility to his family's promise to Hoster Tully kept him from marrying Ashara.  He cleaned up after Brandon twice.  He did the best he could.  He claimed Brandon's bastard as his own and gave him as good a home as any lord could.  He protected Brandon's honor.  He participated in Ashara's suicide cover up.  He birthed another lie with the cooperation of the Dayne servant Wylla.  Most people believe Wylla and Eddard are Jon's parents.  Those in the know suspect the truth.  But suspecting is not the same as confirmation.  So Eddard and the Daynes reached satisfaction because they were able to raise enough cloud of doubt to protect the honors of Brandon and Ashara.  The deception didn't quite quell the truth but it raised enough doubt as to make it a rumor.

[Lady Barbrey]

I think maybe  we're not looking the obvious in the face.

If Brandon seduced Ashara but wouldn't marry her because of Rickard's southern ambitions, as he wouldn't marry Lady Barbrey, then Rhaegar, Whent and Arthur Dayne's jaunt to the Riverlands at the same time Ashara's pregnancy could be confirmed and right before Brandon's wedding to Catelyn likely meant they wanted to quietly perform an intervention and make Brandon marry Ashara to save her honour and her child's legitimacy. They might already have threatened Brandon with the blue rose crown to Lyanna (Brandon seemed to take it as a threat) saying get your hands off Ashara, Brandon, or we'll take your sister in exchange. So they come upon by plan or accident Lyanna Stark, send a message to Brandon saying we've got your sister, follow us to Dorne to marry Ashara, and the message is garbled or miscommunicated, because Brandon heads to KL instead of after them, shouting abduction, and let's the cat out of the bag about Lyanna, whose honour is now beyond salvaging, which very likely wouldn't have been the case if things had been managed quietly and Lyanna's brother had joined them, as they thought he would.

The spark that culminates in the Rebellion is not Rhaegar seducing Lyanna, it was Brandon seducing Ashara.

Allyria, who very possibly is Brandon and Ashara's daughter, is brought up with tales of her much older sister having given birth to a stillborn baby or possibly Jon, because too many people would have seen Ashara's pregnancy so rumours would have got out. 

So Allyria knows that something went down, but the Daynes are presenting her as a legitimate child of their own - protecting her - but they're also never going to let the truth out because that truth ended in thousands of death and a regime change.

I'd say they'd be fine with the misdirection of Ned and Ashara=Jon, because people knew Ashara had been pregnant, stillborn births, etc., as long as the real truth doesn't come out.

As for Ned, how alarming for him though when people do connect him to Ashara, because a war had been fought for her, Brandon had seduced her and wouldn't marry her - none of it reflects well on Stark honour. Better to let the Rhaegar abduction of Lyanna stand with no mention of Ashara Dayne.

 

[Bowen Marsh]

3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I think maybe  we're not looking the obvious in the face.

If Brandon seduced Ashara but wouldn't marry her because of Rickard's southern ambitions, as he wouldn't marry Lady Barbrey, then Rhaegar, Whent and Arthur Dayne's jaunt to the Riverlands at the same time Ashara's pregnancy could be confirmed and right before Brandon's wedding to Catelyn likely meant they wanted to quietly perform an intervention and make Brandon marry Ashara to save her honour and her child's legitimacy. They might already have threatened Brandon with the blue rose crown to Lyanna (Brandon seemed to take it as a threat) saying get your hands off Ashara, Brandon, or we'll take your sister in exchange. So they come upon by plan or accident Lyanna Stark, send a message to Brandon saying we've got your sister, follow us to Dorne to marry Ashara, and the message is garbled or miscommunicated, because Brandon heads to KL instead of after them, shouting abduction, and let's the cat out of the bag about Lyanna, whose honour is now beyond salvaging, which very likely wouldn't have been the case if things had been managed quietly and Lyanna's brother had joined them, as they thought he would.

The spark that culminates in the Rebellion is not Rhaegar seducing Lyanna, it was Brandon seducing Ashara.

Allyria, who very possibly is Brandon and Ashara's daughter, is brought up with tales of her much older sister having given birth to a stillborn baby or possibly Jon, because too many people would have seen Ashara's pregnancy so rumours would have got out. 

So Allyria knows that something went down, but the Daynes are presenting her as a legitimate child of their own - protecting her - but they're also never going to let the truth out because that truth ended in thousands of death and a regime change.

I'd say they'd be fine with the misdirection of Ned and Ashara=Jon, because people knew Ashara had been pregnant, stillborn births, etc., as long as the real truth doesn't come out.

As for Ned, how alarming for him though when people do connect him to Ashara, because a war had been fought for her, Brandon had seduced her and wouldn't marry her - none of it reflects well on Stark honour. Better to let the Rhaegar abduction of Lyanna stand with no mention of Ashara Dayne.

 

Wouldn't Ned hate Rhaegar and Arthur for this stunt?  Lyanna ran away from her family on her own.  A girl with a secret pregnancy looking for help.  

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

Wouldn't Ned hate Rhaegar and Arthur for this stunt?  Lyanna ran away from her family on her own.  A girl with a secret pregnancy looking for help.  

While I would like that to be true re Lyanna as an explanation at least, she doesn't birth Jon for at least a year.

Ned would be angry but even angrier with Brandon.  Screwing around with noble maidens was just not done.  But we know Brandon did it with Barbrey.  She could hide it because she didn't get pregnant.  If she had been pregnant, you can bet Brandon wouldn't have gotten away with a slap on the wrist.  Because she wouldn't be able to marry. Noble maids were property and currency; dishonouring one was a dishonour to the whole House.  Her father, her brothers would be up in arms, and that's what happened in Ashara's case.

I think this situation is never regarded as seriously as it should be because people see Ashara as Dornish, but she's stoney Dornish, with a culture more similar to the Reach and Kings Landing.  Her brother's a Kingsguard.  Her name, Dayne, is almost synonymous with worthiness and honour.

Moon tea or tansy?  If she knew about it maybe, but we don't know if she did, or whether or not she could take it (some women couldn't), or whether she refused as Lyza did before her dad forced it on her.

Imagine if Sansa was impregnated at a tourney by some nobleman? What do you think Robb, Jon,  Ned would have done if the guy refused to marry her on grounds he had a better prospect?  In this day and age, they'd likely say good riddance, but in medieval Westeros?

And what does Brandon the hypocrite do as soon as he thinks his sister has been compromised?  He rides screaming to the King.

Arthur, Rhaegar, Whent wanted it all kept quiet, no wars because of it, no dishonour to either woman. That's why they went personally, to keep it discrete.   Catelyn would have been the only one who suffered, her betrothed calling it off, but her dad could find a hundred good men for her to replace him and it could be smoothed over.

I also think, by the way, that if Rhaegar had been wanting to annul his marriage to Elia, which was legal in medieval times in many countries if she couldn't have more children (her prior children would still be legitimate), so likely the same in Westeros, so that he could have another child, then Ashara was the perfect choice. He wants to do this with the least commotion possible.  Elia was likely friends with Ashara, her lady-in-waiting, and she's the sister of his own best friend.  Beautiful with an illustrious name, but not likely to arouse enmity from jealous houses because she was also Dornish, and above all, Dorne would not be up in arms either.

So it's a possibility that Brandon didn't just make Arthur's sister pregnant, but also Rhaegar's prospective fiancee.

I like the symmetry of Robert and Brandon/Ned regarding Lyanna with Rhaegar and Arthur regarding Ashara.