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How did the rumors about Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne start?


Angel Eyes

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On 10/3/2018 at 5:03 AM, Angel Eyes said:

How and when did rumors about Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne start? Harrenhal? Royalist propaganda during Robert’s Rebellion? After Ned fought Arthur at the Tower of Joy and Ashara killed herself? And why were the rumors about Ned, why not Brandon, who attracts women like meat attracts flies?

Stark folks that saw Ned dance with her and heard of her suicide 

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I don't understand why the prince would allow himself to get involved in this.  Unless he was a bigger fool than we all believe.  He truly deserved to get disinherited if he got himself mixed up in this. 

If Brandon dishonored Ashara then the person who would most likely want to get even is Arthur Dayne.  By doing the same thing to Lyanna Stark.  An eye for an eye.  This would cause lingering anger between the two houses.  Ned is a decent guy for their time but he's not that pure. 

My opinion, Brandon and Ashara both did what they did with open eyes.  Ashara knew he was engaged.  She was equally at fault.  She got pregged.  Ned offered to claim the baby to protect her honor.  Rhaegar offered to do the same for Lyanna's baby with an unknown man.  The baby will be bastards but they will not lack for care. 

I don't think Rhaegar was planning to divorce his wife.  That would put Aegon and Rhaenys in the land of bastards.  No way Aerys would agree to this.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to divorce his wife.  He doesn't have the authority to legitimize bastards.  So if he did have a third child, the child is a bastard unless the mother was Elia. 

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On 10/8/2018 at 11:14 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

 

The spark that culminates in the Rebellion is not Rhaegar seducing Lyanna, it was Brandon seducing Ashara.

 

How do you reconcile that with Ned believing that Lyanna's wildness led her to an early grave?
And with Lyanna essentially being a passenger vs her notable wildness?

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23 hours ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

I don't understand why the prince would allow himself to get involved in this.  Unless he was a bigger fool than we all believe.  He truly deserved to get disinherited if he got himself mixed up in this. 

If Brandon dishonored Ashara then the person who would most likely want to get even is Arthur Dayne.  By doing the same thing to Lyanna Stark.  An eye for an eye.  This would cause lingering anger between the two houses.  Ned is a decent guy for their time but he's not that pure. 

My opinion, Brandon and Ashara both did what they did with open eyes.  Ashara knew he was engaged.  She was equally at fault.  She got pregged.  Ned offered to claim the baby to protect her honor.  Rhaegar offered to do the same for Lyanna's baby with an unknown man.  The baby will be bastards but they will not lack for care. 

I don't think Rhaegar was planning to divorce his wife.  That would put Aegon and Rhaenys in the land of bastards.  No way Aerys would agree to this.  Rhaegar doesn't have the authority to divorce his wife.  He doesn't have the authority to legitimize bastards.  So if he did have a third child, the child is a bastard unless the mother was Elia. 

You think that trying to quietly support his best friend Arthur, who was there, of course, to get his sister married and her child legitimized is more foolish than abducting or eloping with Lyanna Stark? Cause those are the only two alternatives I've ever seen posted.

Remember where Lyanna was supposedly found - not 10 leagues outside Harrenhal? Doesn't that seem to imply she was staying at Harrenhal, probably visiting with that young lady who started the tournament that had four brothers - the Whents - before journeying to her brother's wedding? Oswell Whent was likely in communication with his relatives and knew where she was before they started their jaunt, safely ensconced at Harrenhal.  Arthur doesn't have to abduct her, she doesn't need to know why they're at Harrenhal.  Just send a message to Brandon saying, just had tea and cakes with your sister.  Reconsider your refusal to marry Ashara and meet us at X.

No abduction needed at all. Just the threat of one.

You're mistaking our times for theirs. It does not matter if it's consensual. Taking a noble maid's virginity even if she jumps you is the same as stealing property, influence, settlements, alliances, and honour above all.

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6 hours ago, corbon said:

How do you reconcile that with Ned believing that Lyanna's wildness led her to an early grave?
And with Lyanna essentially being a passenger vs her notable wildness?

I posted my theory in more detail in the R+L=J thread, Corbon. At the end I explain why I think she had to go with Rhaegar in order to keep her life, so there was no question of wildness or no wildness.

I don't know the answer to your first question. I mean, I can think of a dozen things I could fit into my theory, but I don't have anything to hang them on.  It's possible, for instance, she wasn't supposed to be at Harrenhal but ignored her father's orders and rode to visit her friend.  That kind of answer, but can't base that on anything.  Most of what I've theorized can be deduced logically as well as imaginatively, I've got some evidence for it, though could of course be connecting the dots all wrong, but anything I said to answer this question would be pure imagination.

 

 

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If the dishonouring was sexual, the most likely culprit was Aerys (he has form). There is really no reason to point a finger at Brandon ("the gallant fool" - gallant doesn't fit well with despoiler) ... The one clue is Barbrey's story to Theon, and she doesn't allude to a string of conquests. 

Brandon was engaged, Lyanna was engaged, Ned was not, yet ... but Rickard was on a marriage alliance spree. ...For all we know, Rickard may have already  put out discreet feelers to houses with eligible daughters.

Ned might have been expected to size up likely maidens at the tourney. He may even have known Ashara was a candidate his father had in mind. Perhaps the Daynes were a family who liked to have the young people meet before committing... There's no doubt Ned was smitten, and she may have been looking on him with favour, before dishonour befell her.

Brandon may have really been doing no more than act as go-between for his shy brother. ... ETA: Brandon otherwise seems caring toward his family (see Lyanna and Rickard) I can't see him wrecking Ned's romantic hopes for a fling.

When asked, GRRM would not come right out and equate Brandon with Robert, as so many readers want to do. He said Brandon "got around" , but fell short of calling him a Lothario.

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I think it would be a lot more interesting if Ned did sleep with Ashara.

It doesn't reflect poorly on his honour because he wasn't betrothed to Catelyn yet.

I still believe that R+L=J because there's way too much evidence pointing to that - but that doesn't rule out Ned and Ashara being together. That's why there were rumours - where there's smoke, there's fire.

I think Ned lying about Jons parentage to protect him + Ashara being in love with Ned could = suicide over a broken heart, but I think there's still something missing.

I'm unsure of the timeline, but if Ashara was pregnant at the time or if there were rumours about her being the mother to Ned's bastard, these could also have been catalysts for her suicide. 

TL:DR - R+L=J doesn't exclude Ned + Ashara.

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21 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

You think that trying to quietly support his best friend Arthur, who was there, of course, to get his sister married and her child legitimized is more foolish than abducting or eloping with Lyanna Stark? Cause those are the only two alternatives I've ever seen posted.

Remember where Lyanna was supposedly found - not 10 leagues outside Harrenhal? Doesn't that seem to imply she was staying at Harrenhal, probably visiting with that young lady who started the tournament that had four brothers - the Whents - before journeying to her brother's wedding? Oswell Whent was likely in communication with his relatives and knew where she was before they started their jaunt, safely ensconced at Harrenhal.  Arthur doesn't have to abduct her, she doesn't need to know why they're at Harrenhal.  Just send a message to Brandon saying, just had tea and cakes with your sister.  Reconsider your refusal to marry Ashara and meet us at X.

No abduction needed at all. Just the threat of one.

You're mistaking our times for theirs. It does not matter if it's consensual. Taking a noble maid's virginity even if she jumps you is the same as stealing property, influence, settlements, alliances, and honour above all.

There are many options in addition to those two.   The supporters of R+L=J want to try to limit the possibilities but it's futile.  I have read more than two possibilities just on this thread alone.  One such suggestion involves Lyanna running away from the Starks to avoid an unwanted marriage.  Rhaegar agrees to give her protection.  Another suggestion involves Lyanna being pregnant already.  Choose the daddy.  Brandon.  Mance.  Howland, out of gratitude for saving him from the squires.  

The plotting from Rhaegar, if there was one, happened at Harrenhal.  When he gave her the roses.  That was an orchestrated move because blue roses are not found growing in a canal beside the Kingsroad.  Somebody who lived near Harrenhal grew and bloomed that flower.  One thing we can be sure of.  Rhaegar was going to win that tournament and Lyanna was going to get those flowers.  We can only speculate why Rhaegar did this, of course, but it was not an accident.  Maybe it wasn't really a threat.  He was trying to cock block Robert.  This has been suggested on more than one forum.  Seducing his bride to be would surely stop the blood bond between the stags and the wolves.  

Rhaegar putting a small party together for the purposes of forcing Brandon to marry Ashara does not really sound like something he would do at this particular time.  He had more important things to think about.  

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3 hours ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

There are many options in addition to those two.   The supporters of R+L=J want to try to limit the possibilities but it's futile.  I have read more than two possibilities just on this thread alone.  One such suggestion involves Lyanna running away from the Starks to avoid an unwanted marriage.  Rhaegar agrees to give her protection.  Another suggestion involves Lyanna being pregnant already.  Choose the daddy.  Brandon.  Mance.  Howland, out of gratitude for saving him from the squires.  

The plotting from Rhaegar, if there was one, happened at Harrenhal.  When he gave her the roses.  That was an orchestrated move because blue roses are not found growing in a canal beside the Kingsroad.  Somebody who lived near Harrenhal grew and bloomed that flower.  One thing we can be sure of.  Rhaegar was going to win that tournament and Lyanna was going to get those flowers.  We can only speculate why Rhaegar did this, of course, but it was not an accident.  Maybe it wasn't really a threat.  He was trying to cock block Robert.  This has been suggested on more than one forum.  Seducing his bride to be would surely stop the blood bond between the stags and the wolves.  

Rhaegar putting a small party together for the purposes of forcing Brandon to marry Ashara does not really sound like something he would do at this particular time.  He had more important things to think about.  

Seducing his bride to be could also have started a war right in the middle of negotiations.

I too think he purchased those flowers and was going to win the Tourney, but not for the love of Lyanna Stark, or to cock block Robert who was inclined to laugh it off.  I think he and Arthur did what they could to quietly discourage a recalcitrant Brandon, and when that didn't work they chose to publicly threaten him - quietly - in a metaphor that he, and only he, would understand. Ned seemed slightly taken aback as well, but he didn't need to know what was going on, the blue roses themselves would raise some consternation in a Stark who knew their symbolism.

I don't think Rhaegar put the party together.  With Ashara pregnant, he wouldn't be marrying her. I think it was Arthur, who was likely off to a confrontation directly with Brandon, until discouraged by Whent, who knew exactly where Lyanna Stark was, and thought they could deal with the matter quietly and with more force by holding the upper hand.  Rhaegar was there in support of best friend Arthur and because he made the threat in the first place, which Brandon ignored, so he was fulfilling his commitment. He was likely still angry about the whole thing himself.

But if you really don't think Rhaegar would do it, consider this - he might have just gone for a ride with friends to visit Harrenhal.  The threatening abduction letter could have been written by Arthur and Whent, but because of Rhaegar's threat with the blue rose crown, Brandon jumped to the conclusion he was behind it!  Gets better and better lol.

Look what Jon does for the sake of his 'sister'.  Look what Brandon does, foolishly but desperately, when he thinks Rhaegar has Lyanna.  If someone seduced Arya or Sansa and left her pregnant, refusing to marry her, what would Ned, Robb and Jon do about it?

I don't think Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning, epitome of honour and his illustrious name, would be any less outraged than the Starks.

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22 hours ago, bemused said:

If the dishonouring was sexual, the most likely culprit was Aerys (he has form). There is really no reason to point a finger at Brandon ("the gallant fool" - gallant doesn't fit well with despoiler) ... The one clue is Barbrey's story to Theon, and she doesn't allude to a string of conquests. 

Brandon was engaged, Lyanna was engaged, Ned was not, yet ... but Rickard was on a marriage alliance spree. ...For all we know, Rickard may have already  put out discreet feelers to houses with eligible daughters.

Ned might have been expected to size up likely maidens at the tourney. He may even have known Ashara was a candidate his father had in mind. Perhaps the Daynes were a family who liked to have the young people meet before committing... There's no doubt Ned was smitten, and she may have been looking on him with favour, before dishonour befell her.

Brandon may have really been doing no more than act as go-between for his shy brother. ... ETA: Brandon otherwise seems caring toward his family (see Lyanna and Rickard) I can't see him wrecking Ned's romantic hopes for a fling.

When asked, GRRM would not come right out and equate Brandon with Robert, as so many readers want to do. He said Brandon "got around" , but fell short of calling him a Lothario.

George said there could be a number of Snows in the North from Brandon.  And Barbrey said he had an affair with her, a noble maiden, but wouldn't consider marrying her. Compare that to Ned feeling shy about asking a beautiful girl to dance - how is that smitten? I have a lot of doubt he was smitten with her, or that Brandon was wrecking any romantic hopes lol.  Maybe my doubt comes from a one year older sister who would always try to convince me to dance with boys she was interested in as an icebreaker. Or it could come from the fact that the first time I read that scene, I figured Brandon was playing hard to get by not asking her to dance himself, especially if they were already having an affair.  These are the games we play, alas. Regardless, I see no evidence Ned was smitten.

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3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

George said there could be a number of Snows in the North from Brandon.

Not exactly.I think you're reading more into it than is clear.  He said Brandon could have left some illegitimate children in the places he visited (In other words, he was capable.) He said there could be some Stark blood around Barrowton and White Harbour. (From whom and how far back, he doesn't specify) 

These are both from the excellent Q&A in Barcelona in 2012...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

Quote

 

In A Dance with Dragons, we learn more about Brandon Stark and his interest in women, similar to Robert's. Did Brandon have any bastards as well?

It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.

 

Q: There seem to be Lannisters and Freys under every rock, while the Starks are very scarce. Does Ned not have any distant relatives who could reclaim Winterfell?

A: ~~~It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generatons. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either. It might also have to do with their father, Rickard, who was an only son and I'd have to go back to my notes to see why he was the only child -- and really, I'm speaking from memory, so that may not be quite right.

The answers to these two questions seem to contradict each other, He could have left a bastard or two behind, but did he? We still don't have a clear answer. And we don't have enough evidence to assume he was as Randy as Robert.

... and here's  one from June 10, 2003.....

Quote

 

Did Ned Stark have any uncle or aunt?

No.

I asume that important families like the Starks would keep in touch with their greatuncle and greatuncle's grandkids; cousin and 2nd cousin and 3rd cousin and so forth. So there would be a lot more Starks around than just the 7 we saw (like the Freys or Lannisters).

There are probably some descendants of offshoot branches from the family tree floating around the north, most likely in White Harbor and Barrowton.

 

I think I used to have another link as well, but I lost it when my old computer died.

3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

 And Barbrey said he had an affair with her, a noble maiden, but wouldn't consider marrying her.

No, you're putting words in Barbrey's mouth .... Barbrey is very clear that it was all Lord Rickard's decision to engage Brandon to Cat. Obviously Brandon would have considered marrying the daughter of his father's vassal, but his father wanted an alliance with a southron House.

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On 10/7/2018 at 10:46 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

While I would like that to be true re Lyanna as an explanation at least, she doesn't birth Jon for at least a year.

Jon was born before the fight at the Tower of Joy.  Lyanna gave birth to snowflake long before she met her demise at the tower.  She was either having another baby when she died or she sliced her wrist rather than go back to Robert.

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What I see people rarely discuss or don't discuss at all in these threads is Allyria Dayne. 

Few who mention her quickly wave off any idea of her being N+A and say she is Brandon's. The thing is, if so why even Allyria herself thinks it was Ned her "aunt" loved and suicided over and not Brandon? 

In either case hiding her bastardy so she can land a good marriage is the way to go, but if Allyria is B+A, there's no reason not to tell her it was Brandon the Maidens' Bane her aunt fell for, or at least no reason to tell her a  bullshit story of how Ned and Ashara were in love.

The most official version of this story we can get, the one told by Daynes to other Daynes, is that Ashara was heart broken over Ned's marriage to Catelyn. This is no rumor that circulated for thousands of miles through the mouths of dozens if not hundreds of gossiping folk, this is the story that is told in a single castle by the closest Relatives of Ashara to next generation of her closest relatives.

Where there's no fire, there's no smoke we say where I live.

 

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

What I see people rarely discuss or don't discuss at all in these threads is Allyria Dayne. 

Few who mention her quickly wave off any idea of her being N+A and say she is Brandon's. The thing is, if so why even Allyria herself thinks it was Ned her "aunt" loved and suicided over and not Brandon? 

In either case hiding her bastardy so she can land a good marriage is the way to go, but if Allyria is B+A, there's no reason not to tell her it was Brandon the Maidens' Bane her aunt fell for, or at least no reason to tell her a  bullshit story of how Ned and Ashara were in love.

The most official version of this story we can get, the one told by Daynes to other Daynes, is that Ashara was heart broken over Ned's marriage to Catelyn. This is no rumor that circulated for thousands of miles through the mouths of dozens if not hundreds of gossiping folk, this is the story that is told in a single castle by the closest Relatives of Ashara to next generation of her closest relatives.

Where there's no fire, there's no smoke we say where I live.

 

Well, if Ashara really did kill herself over Ned's marriage (which I believe), and Lyanna died birthing Jon, it has got to fucking suck to be Eddard Stark.  Dude carried a ton of grief, for years.  At least he had a good family to support him, King Bob's grief left him completely broken and plunged the entire continent into war.

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9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

What I see people rarely discuss or don't discuss at all in these threads is Allyria Dayne. 

Few who mention her quickly wave off any idea of her being N+A and say she is Brandon's. The thing is, if so why even Allyria herself thinks it was Ned her "aunt" loved and suicided over and not Brandon? 

In either case hiding her bastardy so she can land a good marriage is the way to go, but if Allyria is B+A, there's no reason not to tell her it was Brandon the Maidens' Bane her aunt fell for, or at least no reason to tell her a  bullshit story of how Ned and Ashara were in love.

Because the "suicide" happened, as everyone knows, when Ned was there/left with Jon.

N+A gives reason for the suicide at that time. She loses the lover when he decides to keep his political-marriage stranger-wife.
B+A is not as reasonable a cover story for the suicide. The lover had been lost a year previously. Remember that in Allyria's story, Jon is not Ashara's with a Stark, he is Wylla's with Ned. The loss of Jon is nothing to Ashara according to Allyria's story.

Allyria almost certainly wasn't even born (or rather, just barely born) at the time. She has no idea of the truth, just what she has heard or been told.
Servants gossip around the tragic suicide of her "aunt" when Ned came to visit with a baby by someone else and a marriage to a third woman is most likely the source of Allyria's story.

9 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

The most official version of this story we can get, the one told by Daynes to other Daynes, is that Ashara was heart broken over Ned's marriage to Catelyn. This is no rumor that circulated for thousands of miles through the mouths of dozens if not hundreds of gossiping folk, this is the story that is told in a single castle by the closest Relatives of Ashara to next generation of her closest relatives.

Where there's no fire, there's no smoke we say where I live.

 

Its still just a story told by one kid to another, neither of whom were around at the time.

There are two smokes and two hidden fires. The existence of Jon, and the "suicide" of Ashara. N+A is used by different people who are guessing to explain the fire behind both smokes, but I think the first fire is R+L=J, which Ned can't allow in the open, and the second fire is Ashara faking her suicide to take care of (F)Aegon (whether he is the Pisswater Prnce, Aegon, her own switched child or whatever you believe). I think she believes he is Aegon, Either hers with Rhaegar (dubious IMO) or Rhaegar and Elia's.

 

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50 minutes ago, corbon said:

Because the "suicide" happened, as everyone knows, when Ned was there/left with Jon.

N+A gives reason for the suicide at that time. She loses the lover when he decides to keep his political-marriage stranger-wife.
B+A is not as reasonable a cover story for the suicide. The lover had been lost a year previously. Remember that in Allyria's story, Jon is not Ashara's with a Stark, he is Wylla's with Ned. The loss of Jon is nothing to Ashara according to Allyria's story. 

Allyria almost certainly wasn't even born (or rather, just barely born) at the time. She has no idea of the truth, just what she has heard or been told.

If it was Brandon she were lovers with, then why wait? If she were lovers with neither of the brothers, then why that story? Loss of her brother and also the princess she was a lady-in-wait for is certainly enough grief to drive one into suicide. Only sensible explanation of her waiting for the suicide besides Ned being her lover is she suicided over her brother's death or at least that was the final straw but it's neither the theme of the most common stories, nor the official one.

 

Also Allyria could very well have been born at the time. Can't provide the quotes for them now but here are the reasons:

 

- Most noble ladies"flower" at the age of 12-13 but some do so later.

- "Flowering" is an absolute must for the marriage to happen, or at least it's consummation.

- Alys was waiting for her "flowering" to marry Daryn Hornwood. This numbers may be slightly off(taken from awoiaf) Alys is born in 284 or 285, Wot5K started in 298. So at the age of 13-14 she still hasn't flowered. 

- Alys is almost of an age with Jon, so 16 or 15 turning 16 when she comes to Jon.

- Karstark "uncle"s still haven't married Alys at the time of her escape so very likely that she only "flowered" shortly before that, or even shortly after.

- Any child of Ashara from a dalliance in Harrenhal would be about a year older than Jon and Robb.

- At the start of the series Jon (and Robb) is still 14, making Allyria at most 15.

From all of the above, it is quite possible that Allyria and Beric were waiting for her flowering and she did so only after the war broke out or at the very least around the time that Beric has rode off to the Hand's Tourney.

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Its still just a story told by one kid to another, neither of whom were around at the time.

It's a story told to the Lord of Starfall by his "aunt", to whom the story was told by her family.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

There are two smokes and two hidden fires. The existence of Jon, and the "suicide" of Ashara. N+A is used by different people who are guessing to explain the fire behind both smokes, but I think the first fire is R+L=J, which Ned can't allow in the open, and the second fire is Ashara faking her suicide to take care of (F)Aegon (whether he is the Pisswater Prnce, Aegon, her own switched child or whatever you believe). I think she believes he is Aegon, Either hers with Rhaegar (dubious IMO) or Rhaegar and Elia's.

There are a variety of explanations for both of them, so let's break down all of it;

 

Jon's Mother:

1- From a fisherman's daughter. ( In Vale or at least Sisters)

2- From some random common girl. (Catelyn, and some other people)

3- From a common girl named Wylla. (Robert, from what Ned told)

4- From Wylla, part of the Dayne household ( Official Dayne story at least within the House)

5- From Ashara Dayne. (Catelyn, Winterfell's household, Cersei)

6- From a Dornish peasant whose hold fast was burning (Cersei, but just put forward to piss on Ned's "honorable" attitude)

7- Lyanna ( no explanation needed for this one I believe)

 

Ashara's Suicide:

1- Broken heart; Grief for her slain brother (Cersei)

2- Broken heart; Over her "stolen" son (Cersei)

3- Broken heart; Over a stillborn daughter from the Stark . (Barristan)

4- We never get to learn which of these (Daynes)

a. Broken heart; Over her lover siring a bastard with someone else.

b. Marrying with Catelyn.

5- So she can be a spoiled septa to look after (f)Aegon and not have her noticable eyes mentioned by Tyrion. (Forum)

 

Ashara's Lover/one time dalliance:

1- Ned Stark ( Winterfell household, Cersei, Catelyn and most importantly, her relatives the Daynes.)

2- "Stark" (Barristan Selmy)

3- Rhaegar (Forum)

4- Brandon the Barren of the Bloody Sword (Forum)

 

Ashara's Child:

1- Stillborn girl (Barristan)

2- Jon Snow (Catelyn, Winterfell's household, Cersei)

3- Allyria Dayne (Forum)

4- Danaerys (Forum)

5- (f)Aegon.

 

So I may have missed a spot or two but I have broken it down as best as possible. With in universe knowledge so far I would go with a combination of

5/1,2, 4b/1/2

but as a real person not limited by the constraints that would affect the book characters I would go with the combination

7/1,4b/1/3

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

Well, if Ashara really did kill herself over Ned's marriage (which I believe), and Lyanna died birthing Jon, it has got to fucking suck to be Eddard Stark.  Dude carried a ton of grief, for years.  At least he had a good family to support him, King Bob's grief left him completely broken and plunged the entire continent into war.

And what we see of Ned is just that. 

 

He forbids Catelyn asking about Jon but he doesn't just forbid the household talking about Jon's parentage, but also forbid them from talking about Ashara. He also rarely ever talks about his lost family as it saddens him.

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If it was Brandon she were lovers with, then why wait? If she were lovers with neither of the brothers, then why that story? Loss of her brother and also the princess she was a lady-in-wait for is certainly enough grief to drive one into suicide. Only sensible explanation of her waiting for the suicide besides Ned being her lover is she suicided over her brother's death or at least that was the final straw but it's neither the theme of the most common stories, nor the official one.

Yes, its not clear at all why she suicided, or why at that time.
The loss of Ned is the best answer, if she was ever his lover. I think the evidence overwhelmingly against that, but thats another conversation.
I don't think she did at all to be honest. I think she faked it and went into secret exile to raise (F)Aegon. But thats again, a whole other conversation.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also Allyria could very well have been born at the time. Can't provide the quotes for them now but here are the reasons:

snip

- At the start of the series Jon (and Robb) is still 14, making Allyria at most 15.

From all of the above, it is quite possible that Allyria and Beric were waiting for her flowering and she did so only after the war broke out or at the very least around the time that Beric has rode off to the Hand's Tourney.

Sure, Alyria could have been born at the time - jsut barely, as I said. She's almost certainly not a cognisant witness to events though. These are things that happened 15 years or so ago.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

It's a story told to the Lord of Starfall by his "aunt", to whom the story was told by her family.

First, we don't know he was Lord of Starfall when he was told that story. Or whether that makes any difference anyway.
Second we don't know she heard it from her family. It could easily be gossip she overheard, or her asking servants what hey knew of her dead aunt, rather than a formal family history lesson.

It remains, a story told by a child told to another child, about events that she has only heard about from others.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

There are a variety of explanations for both of them, so let's break down all of it;

Well, most in Westeros have little or no information to go on, they are just making guesses. We have rather a lot of information to go on.

My personal belief, based on the evidence of the books?
Jon's mother: Lyanna
Ashara's lover (she probably had one): Stark (Brandon)
Ashara's suicide: cover story for going into secret exile for what she believes is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child.
Ashara's child: Allyria, then stillborn.
but the evidence is not conclusive on any and not only do other options remain open, but new evidence could change everything (although I think the evidence for Lyanna as Jon's mother is utterly overwhelming).

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6 hours ago, corbon said:

First, we don't know he was Lord of Starfall when he was told that story. Or whether that makes any difference anyway.

Doesn't matter if he was the lord or not back then. If he wasn't he was the heir.

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Second we don't know she heard it from her family. It could easily be gossip she overheard, or her asking servants what hey knew of her dead aunt, rather than a formal family history lesson.

So, Daynes don't have a version of the story that they want people to believe? Moreover he lets the household run around spreading tales about his dead sister and not once has Allyria asked to him about Ashara? Nor Edric, if his father was still alive when he was old enough to ask?

 

6 hours ago, corbon said:

Well, most in Westeros have little or no information to go on, they are just making guesses. We have rather a lot of information to go on.

 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

 

Same would apply for the Starfall, more so in fact since this is where Ashara lived and died.

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On 10/8/2018 at 2:07 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

her suicide 

Yup. And the pregnancy that preceded it.

Especially so because it was so unambiguously a suicide, of a particularly flashy kind. It's not like her parents (or anyone) could suppose she might have been  climbing and slipped, or accidentally fell. It's not like it was the kitchen tower.

It was obviously a premeditated suicide full of symbolism. Her child had died or been 'stolen' from her, her brother had been slain. Eddard Stark had just visited her at Starfall with her brother's sword. The tower she 'threw herself' from happened to be named after that sword, and looked out to the west, over the sea (or at least, had the sea at the bottom of it).

If this is not enough to remind people that Eddard had met Ashara before, there is also that she had a pregnancy that happened sometime between the time she met Eddard at Harrenhal, and the time she met him at Starfall.  When an unmarried woman is pregnant, people invariably are consumed with interest about who the father could be. Naturally, Eddard would be a suspect, and all the ladies who attended Harrenhal would remember how he had danced with her that night, when he showed at Starfell with her brother's sword. (If Barristan had showed at Starfell with her brother's sword when she had suicided, they would have remembered how he had danced with her that night, no doubt.)

There are stronger proofs than these: Her sister Allyria was under the impression that Ashara was in love with Eddard Stark, and the way his squire Howland Reed told the story, he was in love with her. There are stranger proofs, too - Cersei's talk of a 'stolen' child, for example. But for everyone who heard of it from second hand reports, these two known meetings, and the pregnancy, and the suicide, would be proof enough.

Harwin had learnt of the meeting at Harrenhal, probably from his father Hullen, who had taken care of Winterfell's stables for as long as Arya could remember, and possibly a decade or more before that, if the age of his only son can be taken as an indication of his stable employment. The man who was expected to provide, or at least tend to horses for jousting, and hunting, and riding (front and side-saddle, business and pleasure), and for wheelhouse or cart pulling, and ploughing, and hay-making, and pack-bearing, and war, is going to be the first to hear gossip from riders from afar, and has at hand certain amount of independent information in the type of horse entrusted to him, its state and the state of its hooves, to verify or contradict what the rider says or doesn't say about where they have been, how they have travelled, and what they intended to do or did.

Cersei in King's Landing heard Ashara's daughter was stolen, Barristan thought she died 'mad with grief' for a daughter stillborn, conceived at Harrenhal, where she had turned to 'Stark'. I'm not beyond suspecting that Barristan had slipped into her bed under false pretences and sired her child himself.  Harwin doesn't know about the daughter, but he does know Eddard met Ashara at the tourney of Harrenhal, and that some words whispered in a tent were overheard.

It seems a bit odd that Catelyn betrays no knowledge of Ashara's suicide, beyond knowing 'the lady was long dead'. But the fact that she suspects that Jon might be Eddard's of Ashara, shows us that the dates work out well enough for her. Also, that Eddard had returned from Starfall before she had arrived at Winterfell.

It is unclear if she came to the conclusion that Jon was sired after her marriage before she suspected Ashara was his mother or after, but to believe that Ashara was his mother meant that she either found it possible that Ashara had conceived at Harrenhal, or that Eddard had slept with her when he returned the sword to Starfall, or that they had met and more than fraternised with the enemy while he was on campaign with his new father-in-law, and good-brother, and Robert, and his whole army, and nobody happened to notice. Given Catelyn's general assumption that Jon was conceived after she had married, it would appear to be one of the latter. Although, she might have altered her premise from 'conceived at Harrenhal' to 'conceived while on campaign' after discounting Ashara as Jon's mother.

Eddard's reaction to her understandable inquisitiveness is not of a sort that would make her less curious. To silence the rumour mongers and demand she never speak of it again, and yet insist the child remains at Winterfell, to be brought up highborn, would seem more to confirm her Ashara theory than otherwise. So perhaps she decided that Jon was really too small a child to have been conceived as early as Harrenhal.

Incidentally, is it just me or is it odd that no Tullys are noted attending Harrenhal? I'm not sure what Minisa's relationship to the Lord of Harrenhal was, but it strikes me that Hoster would be attempting to marry off his Blackfish brother, who would naturally be a candidate for the joust or the melee. The Lord Paramount of the Riverlands was an important neighbour as well as a good-relation, it seems to me Lord Whent could hardly not have invited the Tullys, and as there was the politics of the King attending too, the absence (if they were absent) of the Tullys would open them up to suspicions of sedition. Why wouldn't they attend, if they could? Why wouldn't they be noted, if they did? 

Whether she thinks Jon was born earlier or later, I don't think Catelyn has seen much, if any, of Jon's first year of life.  Catelyn mentions Robb was in swaddling clothes when they left Riverrun. In the medieval, high-born children would be swaddled up to 9 months of age because it was believed that if their limbs were tightly confined from birth they would grow straight and strong. But it is also possible that an already-mobile infant would be swaddled in order to confine him for safety and convenience when transporting him on water (a trick that the Hound applied when guarding Arya, age ten. (ASoS, Ch.47 Arya IX))

Travelling to Winterfell with all the furnishings and accoutrements of a high-born bride, travelling slowly for the sake of her infant son, travelling also with an entourage that included a dozen or so guards, on roads ruined by war, it would take at least the three months it took Robert, travelling with his wife and children after the roads were in as good repair as fifteen years of peace, prosperity, and the needs of summer trade could give them. So I'm thinking, they would not set fourth from Riverrun until Robb and Catelyn were regarded as robust enough to spend three or four months on the road. Robb could well have been over six months old before they set off. He could hardly have been less than that when they arrived at Winterfell. 

If Jon arrived from Dorne, he might have gone by sea to White Harbour, which would have been faster. He was accompanied by a wetnurse rather than his mother, so her health was not a consideration, and it is possible that his health was better served by getting to Winterfell as fast as possible than by staying where he was. He might well have travelled further and faster than Robb and Catelyn did

That Catelyn learnt of the existence of a bastard in the first year of her marriage is no reason to assume that either Jon or Robb was less than a year old by the time Catelyn gets to Winterfell. Even when she arrived there, we don't know when she first saw him with her own eyes. Simply knowing that Eddard had brought him to Winterfell 'had cut deep'  and there is something of the hot-headed Tully anger, something of affront implicit in the words 'taken up residence' (How dare they! - as if the nursemaid had been squatting there of her own volition, rather than ordered there by the Lord of Winterfell himself). 

If Catelyn gave the order, sight unseen,  that Jon was to be removed from the warm rooms that were to be her sons nursery and her own quarters, to some lowlier and further flung part of the castle before she took up her residence, it would be quite in character with her unjust and unbending aversion to him fifteen years later, and with the fear she had inspired in him for as long as he could remember (AGoT, Ch.10 Jon II). At the time, it might have suited Eddard to keep him on the down-low too, he might have chosen to let it be so, and visit Jon in his nursery when his wife was not around to be provoked by it.

Clearly, at some point Jon started being educated with Robb, attending the family dinners and joining them at the fireside while father told tales of the Children of the Forest or the Boy King who conquered Dorne. This gave Catelyn the opportunity to scowl fearsomely at him and to act as if he wasn't there, and reduce him to tears. She made it clear all his life, she didn't want to see him. So why would she, if she didn't have to? Why wouldn't her anger blind her from making any nice observations on how healthy, how well co-ordinated he grew, how much more intelligent than her own child he had become, when this noisome object unfortunately attracted her notice?

Also, Robb was the heir to Winterfell. She didn't marry Eddard for love, but because he was the Lord of Winterfell and it was her duty and her family and her honour. It mattered to her that her son was the legal heir to Winterfell, that her children would inherit Winterfell, more than it mattered which Lord of Winterfell her husband was.

This being the case, Catelyn's interests are best served by a position that reduced Jon's claims and legitimacy than otherwise. Her anger at his presence is due to his father acknowledging him as having the rights of a son. Eddard is training Jon for a position of leadership and honour, bringing him up with high-born education, associates, and manners. If that thought fills her with fury, how would this insecure, ever-doubting woman deal with the thought that Eddard might have been married before he married her, that he might have whispered some words before some laughing tree at Harrenhal, or somewhere, and sired a son. That she had married a widower or a bigamist. That her own son was a second son, or a bastard.  And she only found out after she was wedded and bedded.  It is possible she has completely shut down the very idea that Jon could be older than her own son from considerations of this kind, that the only sign of that suppressed knowledge is the way she tries to minimise every kind of acknowledgement Jon is shown, doing her best to construe it as an acknowledgement of his bastardry rather than his paternity.  

That Jon had a wetnurse indicates that he would not have been older than two or three. That she could suspect Ashara was the mother means that she found it reasonable either that Jon was conceived when Eddard was at Harrenhal (too early?) or Starfall (too late?) or that he met with Lady Ashara sometime after marrying Catelyn at Riverrun and she had heard about it sometime before/around the time Eddard collected Jon from Starfall, in the first year of her marriage and before she left Riverrun (perfect timing, if Jon is only a few weeks or months younger than Robb, but then, how would he be meeting Ashara while he was warring with Hoster and Robert and Jon Arryn in the South? How would she be there, fraternising with the enemy, nobody noticing?).

At least one of these options made sense to Catelyn, who is no fool, and has shown some ability to figure these things out (eg. that Hoster forced Lysa to terminate Baelish's child. She is fond of berating herself, but we never hear her berate herself for stupidly accusing her dear departed husband of being unfaithful at a time when he couldn't possibly have been.  If she has any doubts about Ashara's ability to have been Jon's mother, they have been thoroughly suppressed from even her own conciousness.

Quote

If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.

(ACoK, Ch.45 Catelyn VI)

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