“It should have been you.”

[Angel Eyes]

Would have liked a POV for this scene from Catelyn’s perspective, why she chose those words for Jon. It’s one of the scenes that cement her as a hate sink for some like the OOtGH (that and kidnapping Tyrion), mainly for the bile she throws his way in this scene. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

I remain convinced that this is the setup for an unresolved plot thread which will culminate in Lady Stoneheart and Jon meeting again, after the revelation of his true birth identity. 

A reconciliation will occur, perhaps allowing Lady Stoneheart to finally depart to the afterlife in peace. Bran will probably orchestrate it, and by then she will also know that her children still live, thus laying to rest some of the bitterness and hate keeping her alive.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

20 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I remain convinced that this is the setup for an unresolved plot thread which will culminate in Lady Stoneheart and Jon meeting again, after the revelation of his true birth identity. 

A reconciliation will occur, perhaps allowing Lady Stoneheart to finally depart to the afterlife in peace. Bran will probably orchestrate it, and by then she will also know that her children still live, thus laying to rest some of the bitterness and hate keeping her alive.

I agree.  I think their confrontation will be equally important to Jon's arc.  Cat's disapproval has influenced many of Jon's decisions: his decision to join and stay in the Night's Watch, turning down Winterfell, and his decision to not openly oppose Ramsay's marriage to Arya.  Another line from AGOT Jon II that I think foreshadows the future encounter between Jon and Stoneheart is, "He would be a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch soon, and face worse dangers than Catelyn Tully Stark."  Who/what could be a worse danger to Jon (on a psychological and emotional as well as physical level) than Lady Stoneheart?  She is the embodiment of Jon's worst fears: the Others and Cat.  I don't think Jon will be able to completely embrace what needs to be done until he makes peace with Lady Stoneheart.              

[Curled Finger]

Gads I sure hope LSH isn't around that long and doesn't get the story line to meet up with Jon.  Can't the shade at Jon just be the other part of her mothering?   Only her kids--no posers.    Truth is she may have accepted Jon more readily had she known he wasn't Ned's, but I do get the feeling she would have never loved him well because he just wasn't hers.    I reckon the family, duty, honor thing only extends to immediate family she likes.    She's not a humanitarian, just a jerk.   Forget how icky she was to Jon.   Look at how she treated her own kids.   It wasn't the Jon thing that got me with Cat.  I don't know any moms who would leave a 6 year-old "favorite" son who's just woken from a coma and is paralyzed (?) on top of a baby to go give a message to anyone.   She didn't have to do it, she wanted to go to Kings Landing.  She wanted to stay with Robb and play statesman rather than take care of her youngest.   Come to think of it, I don't even know any hamsters who would do that and they eat their young.   It appeared to me that she had very little interest in Arya other than comparing her to lord god king Sansa, the perfect princess.   She was happy to get rid of Arya.   You can see the difference in the girls' rearing.  Sansa has a chance and Arya is left to her own devices with so little understanding of family, duty, honor that she takes up professional assassinations.  

The idea that LSH will somehow redeem Cat is sweet, but I hate it.  LSH has so much potential in Jamie and Brienne's--maybe Sandor and Arya's stories I hope she just doesn't have time to help Jonno with anything.    There is a definite closure in LSH giving Jon the last kiss, but it's not in LSH's character and really wasn't in Cat's.   She is not and was not a nice person.   I prefer the idea of LSH being a measure of life for Arya.  Yes, I do hope that LSH receives the gift of mercy.  Way too much hinting in that direction.  After all, Arya's been taught how to give this murderous gift, but we haven't seen her use it.   It's got to come into play somehow.   Maybe bring them both some peace.   Gruesome.   

[Free Northman Reborn]

50 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Gads I sure hope LSH isn't around that long and doesn't get the story line to meet up with Jon.  Can't the shade at Jon just be the other part of her mothering?   Only her kids--no posers.    Truth is she may have accepted Jon more readily had she known he wasn't Ned's, but I do get the feeling she would have never loved him well because he just wasn't hers.    I reckon the family, duty, honor thing only extends to immediate family she likes.    She's not a humanitarian, just a jerk.   Forget how icky she was to Jon.   Look at how she treated her own kids.   It wasn't the Jon thing that got me with Cat.  I don't know any moms who would leave a 6 year-old "favorite" son who's just woken from a coma and is paralyzed (?) on top of a baby to go give a message to anyone.   She didn't have to do it, she wanted to go to Kings Landing.  She wanted to stay with Robb and play statesman rather than take care of her youngest.   Come to think of it, I don't even know any hamsters who would do that and they eat their young.   It appeared to me that she had very little interest in Arya other than comparing her to lord god king Sansa, the perfect princess.   She was happy to get rid of Arya.   You can see the difference in the girls' rearing.  Sansa has a chance and Arya is left to her own devices with so little understanding of family, duty, honor that she takes up professional assassinations.  

The idea that LSH will somehow redeem Cat is sweet, but I hate it.  LSH has so much potential in Jamie and Brienne's--maybe Sandor and Arya's stories I hope she just doesn't have time to help Jonno with anything.    There is a definite closure in LSH giving Jon the last kiss, but it's not in LSH's character and really wasn't in Cat's.   She is not and was not a nice person.   I prefer the idea of LSH being a measure of life for Arya.  Yes, I do hope that LSH receives the gift of mercy.  Way too much hinting in that direction.  After all, Arya's been taught how to give this murderous gift, but we haven't seen her use it.   It's got to come into play somehow.   Maybe bring them both some peace.   Gruesome.   

Martin outright stated that his biggest disagreement with the Show is their omission of Lady Stoneheart, because she has an important plot arc.

It seems that something pivotal to Jon accepting his destiny would be appropriate to be be considered of such importance.

[Lollygag]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Gads I sure hope LSH isn't around that long and doesn't get the story line to meet up with Jon.  Can't the shade at Jon just be the other part of her mothering?   Only her kids--no posers.    Truth is she may have accepted Jon more readily had she known he wasn't Ned's, but I do get the feeling she would have never loved him well because he just wasn't hers.    I reckon the family, duty, honor thing only extends to immediate family she likes.    She's not a humanitarian, just a jerk.   Forget how icky she was to Jon.   Look at how she treated her own kids.   It wasn't the Jon thing that got me with Cat.  I don't know any moms who would leave a 6 year-old "favorite" son who's just woken from a coma and is paralyzed (?) on top of a baby to go give a message to anyone.   She didn't have to do it, she wanted to go to Kings Landing.  She wanted to stay with Robb and play statesman rather than take care of her youngest.   Come to think of it, I don't even know any hamsters who would do that and they eat their young.   It appeared to me that she had very little interest in Arya other than comparing her to lord god king Sansa, the perfect princess.   She was happy to get rid of Arya.   You can see the difference in the girls' rearing.  Sansa has a chance and Arya is left to her own devices with so little understanding of family, duty, honor that she takes up professional assassinations.  

The idea that LSH will somehow redeem Cat is sweet, but I hate it.  LSH has so much potential in Jamie and Brienne's--maybe Sandor and Arya's stories I hope she just doesn't have time to help Jonno with anything.    There is a definite closure in LSH giving Jon the last kiss, but it's not in LSH's character and really wasn't in Cat's.   She is not and was not a nice person.   I prefer the idea of LSH being a measure of life for Arya.  Yes, I do hope that LSH receives the gift of mercy.  Way too much hinting in that direction.  After all, Arya's been taught how to give this murderous gift, but we haven't seen her use it.   It's got to come into play somehow.   Maybe bring them both some peace.   Gruesome.   

Catelyn was completely devastated to the point of being non-functional and getting worse when she thought Bran just had an accident. After the attack, she had someone to blame and revenge became her crutch. In an instant, she was much, much better and suddenly fully functional. It's also why she was so eager to believe LF: he gave her someone to blame and he knew it. It was the only way she could cope with her emotions. As soon as she gives up revenge and releases Jaime after hearing of Bran's and Rickon's deaths, she clearly becomes devastated once again to the point she doesn't function as well as she did and it progressively gets worse until the end. Robb dies and she can't handle it so she goes straight to revenge again and kills Jinglebell. Stoneheart the revenge zombie has bloody nail marks (bloody tears) under her eyes.

Bran was also allowed to run wild and climb in dangerous situations and he was her favorite, so I don't think we can project onto her treatment of Arya. Can you back up "She was happy to get rid of Arya?" with text? I don't recall this.

AGOT Catelyn II

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart. But not Bran. Never Bran. "Yes," she said, "but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven."

Also, I agree with those who think that "it should have been you" will be part of some future understanding at least between Jon and Stoneheart. I don't see any love between them. They always felt unresolved to me despite Catelyn's death feeling organic to the story. 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

If she shouted it erratically at him I would just presume it was a mothers grief, but she seemed to say it way to calmly for the situation she was in. Honestly I'm really not the best person to answer this question with Jon being my favourite character and all, so I'm kind of biased towards seeing Catelyn as a spiteful bitch.

My best guess would be that seeing Jon, her husband's bastard son, looking down at her crippled son, with what to someone like her could look like pity in his eyes, brought all her pent up unnecessary hate she has had for him over the years to the surface. Which is kind of sad really, he was leaving for the Nights Watch, where he could no longer "steal her precious red headed baby boys inheritance" and she couldn't even give him that one moment without making a jab at him. 

[Ran]

She broke into sobs immediately after saying it. The words were without affect, but beneath them was an enormous amount of grief, as George has said.  She also thinks of Jon Snow with a great deal of guilt later on in the same novel, doubtless out of a sense of shame for having done what she did. For that matter, she felt shame for how emotionally destroyed and unavailable she had been to everyone after Bran's fall -- she had been "weak", by which we mean she was traumatically depressed. She hardly ate or slept, she looked like she'd aged twenty years, etc.

She was, in other words, not in her right mind when she said that. I think people are sometimes fairly superficial readers. They just see the dialog and they ignore everything around it that GRRM put in there to make it plain that this was an extraordinary event, something that was deeply uncharacteristic.

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Martin outright stated that his biggest disagreement with the Show is their omission of Lady Stoneheart, because she has an important plot arc.

It seems that something pivotal to Jon accepting his destiny would be appropriate to be be considered of such importance.

I haven't considered that, but it may be true. We really have no clue what Jon will do after his resurrection. We know that sentence by GRRM regarding LS and after thinking a bit, I think LS will become a power in the land, claiming Riverrun and waiving war against the Lannisters (after RW 2.0), but when and how her arc ends? This might be the answer...

[SirArthur]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I remain convinced that this is the setup for an unresolved plot thread which will culminate in Lady Stoneheart and Jon meeting again, after the revelation of his true birth identity. 

A reconciliation will occur, perhaps allowing Lady Stoneheart to finally depart to the afterlife in peace. Bran will probably orchestrate it, and by then she will also know that her children still live, thus laying to rest some of the bitterness and hate keeping her alive.

Even without an identity switch, a remeeting is just such a great opportunity for drama and redemption. What I would love most would be the last epilogue in the series, where one of both prepares for a meeting with the other one and the meeting would then take place in the head of the reader. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

why she chose those words for Jon.

I always thought the meaning was pretty straight forward. Catelyn wished it was Jon who was hurt instead of Bran.

I don’t think it makes her a terrible person. She’s a flawed character, but in this situation such an outburst is perfectly understandable. She was obviously beside herself.

[argonak]

11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Would have liked a POV for this scene from Catelyn’s perspective, why she chose those words for Jon. It’s one of the scenes that cement her as a hate sink for some like the OOtGH (that and kidnapping Tyrion), mainly for the bile she throws his way in this scene. 

The TV show gave her a scene with Robb's TV wife that I thought was quite good.  It really humanized her a lot for me.

Book Catelyn has none of that, nor do I think her character would do so.  Book Catelyn doesn't hate Jon as a person, but she hates him for existing for 15 years, making a mockery of her marriage.  We don't see any other high lords bringing a bastard to their castle to live with their trueborn children.  She probably felt like she was the laughing stock of all the other ladies in the North.

And I don't think we'll ever see LSH with the same regret.  There is nothing left in LSH but hate.  I think if she see Jon again, she'll just want to kill him too.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 minutes ago, argonak said:

Book Catelyn has none of that

Later in GOT, when she meets Myra Stone, she feels guilty thinking about Jon. It's less openly spelled out for people, but it's clear she knows she treated him badly.

4 minutes ago, argonak said:

We don't see any other high lords bringing a bastard to their castle to live with their trueborn children.

Top of my head: Walder Frey does. So does Janos Bracken.

[argonak]

15 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Later in GOT, when she meets Myra Stone, she feels guilty thinking about Jon. It's less openly spelled out for people, but it's clear she knows she treated him badly.

Top of my head: Walder Frey does. So does Janos Bracken.

Ahh I forgot about her meeting Myra.   That's interesting then.

[Rhaegar_Stark]

I want to say there is a Lannister bastard that is well liked in the family. Is it Joy Hill? Jaime thinks highly of her at some point I believe.

 

I also note Cat's treatment of the kids based on looks. Jon and Arya are Stark in appearance and the others have the Tully look.

[Lluewhyn]

2 hours ago, argonak said:

The TV show gave her a scene with Robb's TV wife that I thought was quite good.  It really humanized her a lot for me.

Book Catelyn has none of that, nor do I think her character would do so.  Book Catelyn doesn't hate Jon as a person, but she hates him for existing for 15 years, making a mockery of her marriage.  We don't see any other high lords bringing a bastard to their castle to live with their trueborn children.  She probably felt like she was the laughing stock of all the other ladies in the North.

And I don't think we'll ever see LSH with the same regret.  There is nothing left in LSH but hate.  I think if she see Jon again, she'll just want to kill him too.

I only partially agree. She views him as an existential threat to the future of her children, especially with the way that Ned has raised him like one of his own children. She even says she would have forgiven Ned a dozen bastards as long as they were somewhere else. When Maester Luwin proposes sending Jon to the Night's Watch per his request, she's specifically very happy because the vows will prohibit him from having children which might pose problems down the line for her children or their descendants.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

2 minutes ago, Rhaegar_Stark said:

I want to say there is a Lannister bastard that is well liked in the family. Is it Joy Hill? Jaime thinks highly of her at some point I believe.

Yup. Though it's probably less of a big deal for a fourth son's by-blows to be knocking around than a lord's. Particularly if it's a girl.

3 minutes ago, Rhaegar_Stark said:

I also note Cat's treatment of the kids based on looks. Jon and Arya are Stark in appearance and the others have the Tully look.

I don't think Cat particularly mistreats Arya or she is somehow less favoured. There's no real examples of that. She tries to tame her and make her act more lady-like, but that's just the way things are in that society. Her mistreatment of Jon is because he's a bastard. That he looks like Ned is salt in the wound.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 hour ago, Lluewhyn said:

I only partially agree. She views him as an existential threat to the future of her children, especially with the way that Ned has raised him like one of his own children. She even says she would have forgiven Ned a dozen bastards as long as they were somewhere else. When Maester Luwin proposes sending Jon to the Night's Watch per his request, she's specifically very happy because the vows will prohibit him from having children which might pose problems down the line for her children or their descendants.

 

Cat’s issue wasn’t just about seeing Jon as a threat, she was clearly hurt and shamed by Ned bringing him home and insisting on raising him with her children. He was a walking, talking reminder of what Ned did.

[Rhaegar_Stark]

2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Yup. Though it's probably less of a big deal for a fourth son's by-blows to be knocking around than a lord's. Particularly if it's a girl.

I don't think Cat particularly mistreats Arya or she is somehow less favoured. There's no real examples of that. She tries to tame her and make her act more lady-like, but that's just the way things are in that society. Her mistreatment of Jon is because he's a bastard. That he looks like Ned is salt in the wound.

Yeah that's a valid point about Joy. I couldn't recall all the details.

I don't think Cat ever mistreated Arya, but she doesn't really gush about her either. Not like she does with the other kids.

[Moiraine Sedai]

14 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Would have liked a POV for this scene from Catelyn’s perspective, why she chose those words for Jon. It’s one of the scenes that cement her as a hate sink for some like the OOtGH (that and kidnapping Tyrion), mainly for the bile she throws his way in this scene. 

It was mean but mild compared to what the other characters have had to endure.  This is the worst that Snowflake had to deal with.  He was lucky.