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“It should have been you.”


Angel Eyes

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8 hours ago, Ran said:

She broke into sobs immediately after saying it. The words were without affect, but beneath them was an enormous amount of grief, as George has said.  She also thinks of Jon Snow with a great deal of guilt later on in the same novel, doubtless out of a sense of shame for having done what she did. For that matter, she felt shame for how emotionally destroyed and unavailable she had been to everyone after Bran's fall -- she had been "weak", by which we mean she was traumatically depressed. She hardly ate or slept, she looked like she'd aged twenty years, etc.

She was, in other words, not in her right mind when she said that. I think people are sometimes fairly superficial readers. They just see the dialog and they ignore everything around it that GRRM put in there to make it plain that this was an extraordinary event, something that was deeply uncharacteristic.

I agree that this particular outburst directed at Jon was a result of her emotional state and the trauma she went through. But from Jon’s POV, we know that Catelyn was cold and distant to him, again a state of mind that is understandable and forgivable considering the circumstances.

However, there are two instances where I took issue with Catelyn’s behaviour towards Jon. First, is when she pressures Ned in sending Jon away by refusing to have him stay at Winterfell, knowing full well that by doing so Ned would have no option but to agree to Jon joining the NW against his reservations. She knows by joining the NW that Jon will never marry or have children, something later in the books she wishes for Robb. So she is willing to rob/deprive Jon of these joys in life while hoping that her own son lives to enjoy them. 

The second instance where I found Cat’s treatment of Jon deplorable is when she’d rather have Robb name some Vale lordling heir to WF than Jon. Why does she think this Vale lord will be more amiable to restore Arya’s rights if she were to return rather than Jon? She knew full well how much Jon loved his siblings and she should have been able to recognize Jon’s selflessness by then (or else she is a fool). To me, this feels more like pure spite and hate on Catelyn’s part and not real fear for Arya’s claim or defending Robb’s kids from Jon or his offspring. In this instance, Cat’s arguments against Jon was baseless and her fear unfounded. Robb saw right through this and rightly disagreed with her.

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12 minutes ago, teej6 said:

First, is when she pressures Ned in sending Jon away by refusing to have him stay at Winterfell, knowing full well that by doing so Ned would have no option but to agree to Jon joining the NW against his reservations.

Ned is a paramount lord, soon to be Hand of the king - he has an infinity of options.

13 minutes ago, teej6 said:

The second instance where I found Cat’s treatment of Jon deplorable is when she’d rather have Robb name some Vale lordling heir to WF than Jon.

I'd guess the Blackfyres are forever on her mind. Legitimising a bastard could cause problems with the succession - civil war type problems. Perhaps also she hasn't been able to accept the marriage of Sansa and the 'deaths' of her other children as final. But also because she doesn't like Jon.

Actually I wouldn't consider this one deplorable. There are other ways to be nice to someone without making them King in the North.

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7 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Ned is a paramount lord, soon to be Hand of the king - he has an infinity of options.

I'd guess the Blackfyres are forever on her mind. Legitimising a bastard could cause problems with the succession - civil war type problems. Perhaps also she hasn't been able to accept the marriage of Sansa and the 'deaths' of her other children as final. But also because she doesn't like Jon.

Actually I wouldn't consider this one deplorable. There are other ways to be nice to someone without making them King in the North.

Ned's legal ability and what he can reasonably do are two different things.  Yeah, he can also ask to have Jon legitimized, ya know?  But not if he wants to keep peace with the wife and family he loves.

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3 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Ned's legal ability and what he can reasonably do are two different things.  Yeah, he can also ask to have Jon legitimized, ya know?  But not if he wants to keep peace with the wife and family he loves.

Oh, sure. I was thinking more about opportunities and high office. Some bastards go far.

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He could also send Jon to foster for awhile elsewhere, and leaving the decision to join the Night's Watch much later. I'm sure Jon would have been welcomed at Castle Cerwyn, Deepwood Motte, the Last Hearth, etc. and would have been treated reasonably well as the son of the Lord of Winterfell.

Ned forced Catelyn into a position he knew upset her and caused trouble., and he placed Jon in the position of having the one woman who might be a mother figure be very much opposed to any notion of mothering him because he was foisted on her and she had no power. Ned made the choices that he made, and had all the power in the relationship. We have reasons to suspect why he might not have wanted to have Jon out of his sight when a boy, but Catelyn certainly did not.

Ned's 100% responsible for the situation he chose to put himself in. And frankly, I know of no reason why Jon could not have been fostered out by AGoT. I can certainly understand when he was an infant and young boy, I could understand it to the point where he was a teen, but after that he surely needed to start thinking of JonS future. Send him to one of the clans where they don't give a damn about southron politics and see them not care a whit to ask him anything about his birth or childhood or really anything that mattered other than his being able to lead and fight.

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3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Cat’s issue wasn’t just about seeing Jon as a threat, she was clearly hurt and shamed by Ned bringing him home and insisting on raising him with her children. He was a walking, talking reminder of what Ned did.

Sorry, got to disagree. When she says " She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake," I take it as it's not the fact that Ned has been unfaithful to her that's bothering her is the fact that he's raising the kid like one of his own. It's not a matter of being in willful denial about his unfaithfulness as much as the kid being in their household, and she says specifically at several different points that she's concerned about Jon being a danger to her children. She goes into great detail about this in ASOS when Robb wants to legitimize Jon. I think she takes the "unfaithfulness" as a minor matter because of the rampant amount of adultery (at least among lords) in Westerosi society that has an alarming number of bastard children.

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12 minutes ago, Ran said:

He could also send Jon to foster for awhile elsewhere, and leaving the decision to join the Night's Watch much later. I'm sure Jon would have been welcomed at Castle Cerwyn, Deepwood Motte, the Last Hearth, etc. and would have been treated reasonably well as the son of the Lord of Winterfell.

Ned forced Catelyn into a position he knew upset her and caused trouble., and he placed Jon in the position of having the one woman who might be a mother figure be very much opposed to any notion of mothering him because he was foisted on her and she had no power. Ned made the choices that he made, and had all the power in the relationship. We have reasons to suspect why he might not have wanted to have Jon out of his sight when a boy, but Catelyn certainly did not.

Ned's 100% responsible for the situation he chose to put himself in. And frankly, I know of no reason why Jon could not have been fostered out by AGoT. I can certainly understand when he was an infant and young boy, I could understand it to the point where he was a teen, but after that he surely needed to start thinking of JonS future. Send him to one of the clans where they don't give a damn about southron politics and see them not care a whit to ask him anything about his birth or childhood or really anything that mattered other than his being able to lead and fight.

Yes, Ned shares a big part of the blame in Jon’s situation at WF and his joining WF. But this does not negate Catelyn’s part in it. She could have suffered Jon to stay at WF, especially considering the alternative was the NW. Catelyn’s vehement opposition to Jon’s continued stay at WF forced Ned’s hand. At that point (considering the limited time), finding an alternative place for Jon might not have been feasible for Ned. But I do agree, Ned should have found alternative arrangements for Jon long before and never have consented to allowing Jon join the NW at such a young age.

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7 minutes ago, Ran said:

 And frankly, I know of no reason why Jon could not have been fostered out by AGoT. I can certainly understand when he was an infant and young boy, I could understand it to the point where he was a teen, but after that he surely needed to start thinking of JonS future.

That's a particular problem with all of Ned's children, which makes sense from Ned's perspective of not wanting his children to grow up so fast, but you'd think at least Catelyn would have been talking to him about making plans for betrothals for Robb and Sansa by now. Until Robert shows up and makes an offer of betrothal to Joffrey, Ned doesn't seem to spend a lot of time planning futures for his kids. Kind of weird how Alys Karstark got brought to Winterfell as a manner of showing her off to Robb several years before AGOT, but apparently that went nowhere.

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Yeah, Ned is a bit odd. I can only think that he had some notion of letting the kids find love for themselves, rather than arranging marriages from on high. That seems the best in-world explanation. The out-of-world explanation is probably that GRRM just didn't think about having the complication.

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10 minutes ago, Lluewhyn said:

That's a particular problem with all of Ned's children, which makes sense from Ned's perspective of not wanting his children to grow up so fast, but you'd think at least Catelyn would have been talking to him about making plans for betrothals for Robb and Sansa by now. Until Robert shows up and makes an offer of betrothal to Joffrey, Ned doesn't seem to spend a lot of time planning futures for his kids. Kind of weird how Alys Karstark got brought to Winterfell as a manner of showing her off to Robb several years before AGOT, but apparently that went nowhere.

Catelyn insisted on Sansa’s betrothal to Joffrey, despite Sansa being 11 and Joffrey being a prick. It’s in Catelyn II in AGOT. Robert shouldn’t have suggested it and both Ned and Catelyn were wrong to not look into Joffrey’s true nature, particularly Ned, who knows full well how treacherous the Lannisters can be (Sack of King’s Landing, people).

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Catelyn insisted on Sansa’s betrothal to Joffrey, despite Sansa being 11 and Joffrey being a prick. It’s in Catelyn II in AGOT. Robert shouldn’t have suggested it and both Ned and Catelyn were wrong to not look into Joffrey’s true nature, particularly Ned, who knows full well how treacherous the Lannisters can be (Sack of King’s Landing, people).

The key point is prior to Robert's arrival at Winterfell. It seems like this is the first time that Ned and Catelyn have had a discussion about betrothals regarding any of their children, even though this is a major part of feudal politics, and comes up a lot more through the later books.

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I wish OP would have included the word Catelyn said to Jon immediately before telling him "It should have been you."  Jon was leaving, she called out to him "Jon", and he stopped.  It was the first time in his life she had ever addressed him by his name.  He turned to face her, and she wished death upon him.

Catelyn is one EVIL bitch.

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7 minutes ago, LindsayLohan said:

I wish OP would have included the word Catelyn said to Jon immediately before telling him "It should have been you."  Jon was leaving, she called out to him "Jon", and he stopped.  It was the first time in his life she had ever addressed him by his name.  He turned to face her, and she wished death upon him.

Catelyn is one EVIL bitch.

Death or paralysis.

Forgot about that part. 

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The point of it is to show Catelyn always had it in her the ability to knowingly misplace blame and so hate an innocent party to a sin, for no other purpose than to make herself feel better.

Stoneheart is the magnification through tragedy, death and magic of this character flaw.

There will be nothing more between Jon and Stoneheart, her existence is primarily for Good Queen Arya's arc, secondly for Goldenhand the Just's and thirdly Brienne the Oathbreaker's.

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2 hours ago, teej6 said:

The second instance where I found Cat’s treatment of Jon deplorable is when she’d rather have Robb name some Vale lordling heir to WF than Jon. Why does she think this Vale lord will be more amiable to restore Arya’s rights if she were to return rather than Jon? She knew full well how much Jon loved his siblings and she should have been able to recognize Jon’s selflessness by then (or else she is a fool). To me, this feels more like pure spite and hate on Catelyn’s part and not real fear for Arya’s claim or defending Robb’s kids from Jon or his offspring. In this instance, Cat’s arguments against Jon was baseless and her fear unfounded. Robb saw right through this and rightly disagreed with her.

I agree with all of this.  Jon and Arya were TIGHT.  Even GRRM's original plan was a love triangle, with Arya and Jon being 2/3.  If anyone in Westeros was going to devote their life to protecting Arya's rights, it's Jon.  Robb knew it, too. 

Robb always understood the relationship between Catelyn and Jon.  Even after "It should have been you", Robb instinctively knows to ask Jon if Catelyn treated him well when he said farewell to Bran.  Robb as king has zero internal debate about Jon's loyalty or morality.  It's an amazing bond, and actually seems that (in Robb's actions and POV) Robb's respect for his bastard half-brother grows during their time apart, instead of waning.  As Robb begins to show signs of independence, growing accustomed to his role as King, he elevates Jon's standing in the family.

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20 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Would have liked a POV for this scene from Catelyn’s perspective, why she chose those words for Jon. It’s one of the scenes that cement her as a hate sink for some like the OOtGH (that and kidnapping Tyrion), mainly for the bile she throws his way in this scene. 

Title of thread:    “It should have been you.” 

People may not like my answer. Perspective and life experience play into this scenario. So, it depends on an individuals outlook.

Jon wants to see and say his good byes to his younger half brother. Jon faces the wraith of his "step mother" in order to do that.

In story there is no secret that Cat dislikes having her husbands "bastard" being raised with her children. Step mom Cat did not during Jon's 14 years at WF come to love Jon. Jon knows that. Readers know that.

The question of why Cat did not come to love baby Jon is self evident. Cat viewed Jon as a threat. Yep, women have shortcomings, but in today's blended families with love abounding that idea may be overlooked until the $.

Eddard protected and educated his bastard.... in other words he disagreed with his wife's desire. The funny part is Jon may not be Eddard's bastard.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

Ned's 100% responsible for the situation he chose to put himself in. And frankly, I know of no reason why Jon could not have been fostered out by AGoT. I can certainly understand when he was an infant and young boy, I could understand it to the point where he was a teen, but after that he surely needed to start thinking of JonS future. Send him to one of the clans where they don't give a damn about southron politics and see them not care a whit to ask him anything about his birth or childhood or really anything that mattered other than his being able to lead and fight.

This line of thought surprises me. I'm not sure why.

Neither Robb or Jon were fostered. Both Jon & Robb were in their early teens (13-14). Eddard was fostered at age eight. I'm gonna surmise Eddard for some reason wanted to keep the children close.

 

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Catelyn doesn't deserve to be hated for this.  She has had to endure Jon's insulting presence for years.  It is a cruel thing to say for sure but the average bastard gets worse treatment than this.  Jon has never had to go with an empty belly.  He had it easy compared to the lives of other bastards. 

Today being the age of self-esteem, that one time hurtful comment would entitle Jon Snow to many years of free counseling, courtesy of Ned's health plan.  Jon's fans and Catelyn's haters are over reacting to this incident. 

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21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Would have liked a POV for this scene from Catelyn’s perspective, why she chose those words for Jon. It’s one of the scenes that cement her as a hate sink for some like the OOtGH (that and kidnapping Tyrion), mainly for the bile she throws his way in this scene. 

OOtGH?  Please define.

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