“It should have been you.”

[Darth Sidious]

31 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

OOtGH?  Please define.

Order Of the Green Hand.  It's a popular YouTube show.  I like some of their content.  I subscribe even though I do not agree with some of their theories.

[Angel Eyes]

41 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

OOtGH?  Please define.

Order of the Green Hand. They’re a YouTube duo who makes videos about theories and analyses. One of their analyses is a five-parter, two-hour-plus series on why Catelyn is a sociopath and the worst person in the series (which is really saying something, considering the long list of Complete Monsters for ASOIAF on TV Tropes; a Complete Monster is the vilest, most depraved villain out there). Another big theory of theirs is that Jon is Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne’s trueborn son, born in White Harbor and that Hoster Tully forced Ned to marry Catelyn for a large portion of the Riverlands forces.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

57 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This line of thought surprises me. I'm not sure why.

Neither Robb or Jon were fostered. Both Jon & Robb were in their early teens (13-14). Eddard was fostered at age eight. I'm gonna surmise Eddard for some reason wanted to keep the children close.

I'm sure he did. And it's not just the fostering. Robb was not promised to anyone and Ned balked at Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey. Lyanna was about the same age as Sansa (give or take a year) when she became promised to Robert. And Ned was the one who brought that proposal to Winterfell, so maybe came to view it as a mistake.

I think his experiences informed a lot of his actions. We don't know how close Ned and Brandon were, but Robb and Jon were very close to one another. Unlike his father, he didn't enter into marriage contracts for his children. Until Robert named him Hand, Ned had barely left the north (for the Greyjoy Rebellion IIRC). 

Maybe he was trying to not follow into his father's footsteps (although I really don't believe a single thing about southron ambitions).

[Darth Sidious]

Just now, Angel Eyes said:

Order of the Green Hand. They’re a YouTube duo who makes videos about theories and analyses. One of their analyses is a five-parter, two-hour-plus series on why Catelyn is a sociopath and the worst person in the series (which is really saying something, considering the long list of Complete Monsters for ASOIAF on TV Tropes; a Complete Monster is the vilest, most depraved villain out there). Another big theory of theirs is that Jon is Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne’s trueborn son, born in White Harbor and that Hoster Tully forced Ned to marry Catelyn for a large portion of the Riverlands forces.

Catelyn messed up with Tyrion.  She messed up when she let Jaime go.  She is deserving of some of their criticism but they go overboard because they like Jon too much.  I say Catelyn deserves some for kidnapping Tyrion.  But their criticism for being Mother Mean to Jon is too much for me.  You would think Jon was the most abused kid in the world.  Catelyn treated Jon way better than Viserys treated his sister.  Better than the way her own father treated Lysa.  Good grief, give Jon a bottle of Paxil.

 

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Martin outright stated that his biggest disagreement with the Show is their omission of Lady Stoneheart, because she has an important plot arc.

It seems that something pivotal to Jon accepting his destiny would be appropriate to be be considered of such importance.

Agreed.   So would Arya understanding the gift of mercy and stop all the crazy killing. 

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Catelyn doesn't deserve to be hated for this.  She has had to endure Jon's insulting presence for years.

This word "hate" is a catch all for "things I do not agree with" rather than expanding ones vocabulary one picks the "popular" word.

1 hour ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

She has had to endure Jon's insulting presence for years. 

Eddard brought his bastard home and raised him (not a deadbeat dad). Yes, I know that Eddard's bastard may not be his child, but may be Eddard's sisters babe.

Thing is in this ASOIAF saga Cat did not bond with the the babe Jon. Jon was a threat to Cat's true born (the offspring that grew of fucking Eddard) children.

As I said, it is no secret that in story Cat doesn't like Jon. Big deal. Cat did not go out of her way to harm Jon.  She just don't like him being round.

Eddard said he was not comfortable to take Jon to KL. Cat said Jon could not stay at WF. Martin sent Jon to the Wall. Before Jon left WF he wanted to say good bye to his little comatose brother.

If I look at the quote it is evident that Cat wishes the harm had befallen Jon rather than Bran:

A Game of Thrones - Jon II   He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.     "Yes?" he said.  "It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before./

 

 

[The Map Guy]

It's all Ned's fault

Aside from raising Jon in the Winterfell along with the rest of the Stark kids, I always thought a root of Catelyn's hatred in the whole situation was that Ned never apologized for dishonoring her.

If Ned was more apologetic and more sensitive when Catelyn first met baby Jon, perhaps their relationship wouldn't be so bad. Ned would say something smart like "I am so sorry for dishonoring our marriage during the war, but I promised myself that if I come home alive, I would raise Jon in Winterfell, since his mother died. Please forgive Cat"

But instead, Ned frighten Catelyn for the first and only time in their marriage...and told her never speak about Jon again.

What Ned did in the books never made any logical sense to me in regards to Catelyn & baby Jon. Perhaps GRRM just wanted to start Jon as an underdog and Catelyn's attitude towards him just reminds Jon that he does not belong there.

 

[Curled Finger]

20 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Catelyn was completely devastated to the point of being non-functional and getting worse when she thought Bran just had an accident. After the attack, she had someone to blame and revenge became her crutch. In an instant, she was much, much better and suddenly fully functional. It's also why she was so eager to believe LF: he gave her someone to blame and he knew it. It was the only way she could cope with her emotions. As soon as she gives up revenge and releases Jaime after hearing of Bran's and Rickon's deaths, she clearly becomes devastated once again to the point she doesn't function as well as she did and it progressively gets worse until the end. Robb dies and she can't handle it so she goes straight to revenge again and kills Jinglebell. Stoneheart the revenge zombie has bloody nail marks (bloody tears) under her eyes.

Bran was also allowed to run wild and climb in dangerous situations and he was her favorite, so I don't think we can project onto her treatment of Arya. Can you back up "She was happy to get rid of Arya?" with text? I don't recall this.

AGOT Catelyn II

Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought to herself, and the gods knew that Arya needed refinement. Reluctantly, she let go of them in her heart. But not Bran. Never Bran. "Yes," she said, "but please, Ned, for the love you bear me, let Bran remain here at Winterfell. He is only seven."

Also, I agree with those who think that "it should have been you" will be part of some future understanding at least between Jon and Stoneheart. I don't see any love between them. They always felt unresolved to me despite Catelyn's death feeling organic to the story. 

Hrm, I'm not sure if you agree or disagree so I beg your pardon where I have missed your point.   To your opening statements I'm not convinced at least in my little world, that there is any reason for any parent to not to care for their child.   Especially babies.  Especially special needs children.   It's well, simply not allowed.   Cat's emotional devastation is hard for me to swallow.   I only saw this shallow woman who wanted to be a player in the intrigue.   I just don't understand how a mother could abandon her children for any mission.   It's not OK to blame emotional devastation for this brand of self serving cruelty.   Just my opinion to lend perspective.  Not in my realm of reality, Lady.   

As to being happy to be rid of Arya, you've kindly provided the quote I struggled to recall.   But that was not the entire stream, there is Cat not wanting her special boy Bran to go.  Arya needs refinement and she doesn't want to let go of Bran.  Then of course she leaves Bran when he probably needed her most.   I don't mean to sound argumentative, Lollygag.   Yours doesn't strike me as anything other than a thoughtful post--not a knee jerk reaction.   My dislike or rather disapproval of Cat doesn't sit well with you.    I get that and respect it.   We are reading the same character from different experience and won't likely agree here.  The character, Catelyn Tully Stark, strikes me as a very weak woman.  

It's entirely possible my disdain for Cat blinds me to any further importance her incarnation will have in the tale.   I'm satisfied that she would serve a strong purpose in teaching Arya about death and about mercy.  However, because you have extended yourself to me I will ask you to explain how the Jon/Cat relationship can be really be resolved.   She's dead and mean dead hanging little boys and he's got so many better things to do.   How could you get them together or in the same place?   I have read from other folks that her crown twirling is some lead into this newfound love (???) Cat will have for Jon.  

[Curled Finger]

43 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This word "hate" is a catch all for "things I do not agree with" rather than expanding ones vocabulary one picks the "popular" word.

Eddard brought his bastard home and raised him (not a deadbeat dad). Yes, I know that Eddard's bastard may not be his child, but may be Eddard's sisters babe.

Thing is in this ASOIAF saga Cat did not bond with the the babe Jon. Jon was a threat to Cat's true born (the offspring that grew of fucking Eddard) children.

As I said, it is no secret that in story Cat doesn't like Jon. Big deal. Cat did not go out of her way to harm Jon.  She just don't like him being round.

Eddard said he was not comfortable to take Jon to KL. Cat said Jon could not stay at WF. Martin sent Jon to the Wall. Before Jon left WF he wanted to say good bye to his little comatose brother.

If I look at the quote it is evident that Cat wishes the harm had befallen Jon rather than Bran:

A Game of Thrones - Jon II   He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.     "Yes?" he said.  "It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before./

 

 

Well met, Pup.    I don't feel so alone anymore.   Do you think there is some factor missing between Jon and Cat that requires apology after death?   Do you see this hanging storyline?   It just never even occurred to me when I read it.   Man, I'm trying to recall if I'm dreaming it up or if Jon said some respectful thing when he learned Cat died.   He was a gentleman, even as a lousy sullen teenager, he was respectful.   I remember the lie to Robb immediately following the "it should have been you" conversation.   It's like Jon transcended whatever foolishness Cat was up to.  I just don't see it, but as always, it's interesting to read people's ideas about things.    

[Clegane'sPup]

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Well met, Pup.    I don't feel so alone anymore.   

Argh, you be not alone matey you bring useful information to the table.

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Do you think there is some factor missing between Jon and Cat that requires apology after death?   Do you see this hanging storyline? 

No, I do not see a group hug betwist Jon Snow and Cat, aka LSH.

21 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Man, I'm trying to recall if I'm dreaming it up or if Jon said some respectful thing when he learned Cat died.   He was a gentleman, even as a lousy sullen teenager, he was respectful. 

Ummmm, I gettin' the Dude (Jeff Bridges) vibe and I dunna know.

24 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I remember the lie to Robb immediately following the "it should have been you" conversation.   It's like Jon transcended whatever foolishness Cat was up to.  I just don't see it, but as always, it's interesting to read people's ideas about things.    

Share with me the Robb lie.

 

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Hrm, I'm not sure if you agree or disagree so I beg your pardon where I have missed your point.   To your opening statements I'm not convinced at least in my little world, that there is any reason for any parent to not to care for their child.   Especially babies.  Especially special needs children.   It's well, simply not allowed.   Cat's emotional devastation is hard for me to swallow.   I only saw this shallow woman who wanted to be a player in the intrigue.   I just don't understand how a mother could abandon her children for any mission.   It's not OK to blame emotional devastation for this brand of self serving cruelty.   Just my opinion to lend perspective.  Not in my realm of reality, Lady.   

As to being happy to be rid of Arya, you've kindly provided the quote I struggled to recall.   But that was not the entire stream, there is Cat not wanting her special boy Bran to go.  Arya needs refinement and she doesn't want to let go of Bran.  Then of course she leaves Bran when he probably needed her most.   I don't mean to sound argumentative, Lollygag.   Yours doesn't strike me as anything other than a thoughtful post--not a knee jerk reaction.   My dislike or rather disapproval of Cat doesn't sit well with you.    I get that and respect it.   We are reading the same character from different experience and won't likely agree here.  The character, Catelyn Tully Stark, strikes me as a very weak woman.  

It's entirely possible my disdain for Cat blinds me to any further importance her incarnation will have in the tale.   I'm satisfied that she would serve a strong purpose in teaching Arya about death and about mercy.  However, because you have extended yourself to me I will ask you to explain how the Jon/Cat relationship can be really be resolved.   She's dead and mean dead hanging little boys and he's got so many better things to do.   How could you get them together or in the same place?   I have read from other folks that her crown twirling is some lead into this newfound love (???) Cat will have for Jon.  

Wow, just joined the party, and you are strong on this, CF!

I get where people are coming from re a meet between Jon and Cat - there was definitely a narrative tension at the beginning of the series that seemed to indicate some kind of reconciliation or catharsis down the road for them.  I thought they might bond over Ned as they rallied the troops or something.  As soon as Cat died and became Stoneheart I let that go.

I definitely have more empathy for Cat regarding Jon than you do, though her hateful words to Jon were almost beyond forgiveness.

But I had the exact same reaction about her leaving Bran.  But in the end, I didn't really end up thinking less of her character, because she acted so out of character.  I blamed George, lol, for putting plot development ahead of character consistency, and still do.

 

[Curled Finger]

Robb knew something was wrong. "My mother …"

"She was … very kind," Jon told him.

Robb looked relieved. "Good." He smiled. "The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."   AGOT Jon 2

Thanks, Pup.   This exchange occurs between Jon and Robb as they meet after Jon said his goodbyes to Bran and Cat.   Robb asked Jon (paraphrase) how it went in the room.   Jon was the bigger person even then.  I just don't see this hanging issue that requires resolution.   Jon had nothing to gain by telling Robb the truth and it appears some small measure of relief judging by Robb's response.   

@Clegane'sPup--lost the internet connection 1st time I sent, sorry the reply is all screwed up, but I hope you can see the quote. 

[White Ravens]

2 hours ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Order Of the Green Hand.  It's a popular YouTube show.  I like some of their content.  I subscribe even though I do not agree with some of their theories.

 

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Order of the Green Hand. They’re a YouTube duo who makes videos about theories and analyses. One of their analyses is a five-parter, two-hour-plus series on why Catelyn is a sociopath and the worst person in the series (which is really saying something, considering the long list of Complete Monsters for ASOIAF on TV Tropes; a Complete Monster is the vilest, most depraved villain out there). Another big theory of theirs is that Jon is Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne’s trueborn son, born in White Harbor and that Hoster Tully forced Ned to marry Catelyn for a large portion of the Riverlands forces.

Sounds like a bunch of malarkey.  I'd rather stick to reading what actually happens in the books.  At any rate I don't feel so bad for not recognizing their acronym. 

[Curled Finger]

3 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Wow, just joined the party, and you are strong on this, CF!

I get where people are coming from re a meet between Jon and Cat - there was definitely a narrative tension at the beginning of the series that seemed to indicate some kind of reconciliation or catharsis down the road for them.  I thought they might bond over Ned as they rallied the troops or something.  As soon as Cat died and became Stoneheart I let that go.

I definitely have more empathy for Cat regarding Jon than you do, though her hateful words to Jon were almost beyond forgiveness.

But I had the exact same reaction about her leaving Bran.  But in the end, I didn't really end up thinking less of her character, because she acted so out of character.  I blamed George, lol, for putting plot development ahead of character consistency, and still do.

 

Not so strong as not getting it.   I don't see it.   We all know AGOT is pretty much a story with a very different vision from GRRM.   I am still frustrated over Jorah's changes--who am I kidding?   Everyone's changes!   I think in the beginning there was some reconciliation planned for much farther down the line, but I think that would have fit in a lot better if GRRM had followed his original ideas of having Cat flee to the Wall and be refused shelter (I think that's how it was supposed to go) by Jon.    Ha!   That would have been satisfying.  You are responding to my reply to @Lollygag, who was kind enough to share her thoughts.   I hope no offense is taken as that was never my intent.  

I have never liked Cat.  I've never liked Hizdar, either.   These are not characters who make choices I relate to.   Thank you for the vote of confidence in understanding my well, outrage at Mommy Dearest's actions with Bran and Rickon.   The Jon stuff is just icing on her mean, selfish, shallow lady cake.  Her nasty words to Jon did not raise my hackles like leaving Bran and Rickon did.   But that's the tell with a character, isn't it?  I was perfectly happy to let Jon tell his sweet lie to Robb and leave the entire family.  Now, my memory isn't all that great anymore and true, I am reading other works now so I may be muddled here, but I don't recall Jon thinking about Cat at all once he's firmly ensconced at the Nights Watch.   I only recall her thinking about him in her predictably awful way when Robb tells her he plans to name Jon his heir.   Gads how miserable would you have to be to have lost 2/5 of your children and your husband and get a missing child to continue to take a jab at the last brother your son thinks he has?   Just to keep the record straight, I don't buy it for a single minute that Cersei loves her kids for any measure beyond their value to her power bank.   Maybe these noble people are just all lousy parents?  

Perhaps you will join me in a laugh at myself when I tell you I thought LSH was just Cat's soul being worn inside out at 1st.   I always thought she was this awful thing.  

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

 

Sounds like a bunch of malarkey.  I'd rather stick to reading what actually happens in the books.  At any rate I don't feel so bad for not recognizing their acronym. 

If you're reading this at all you can see I'm not a Cat fan.   I love all the theory talk and videos on youtube.  This team has a couple of series called why such and such character sucks.  Their Cat shade even got to me, so I try to stay away.  

[White Ravens]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This word "hate" is a catch all for "things I do not agree with" rather than expanding ones vocabulary one picks the "popular" word.

Eddard brought his bastard home and raised him (not a deadbeat dad). Yes, I know that Eddard's bastard may not be his child, but may be Eddard's sisters babe.

Thing is in this ASOIAF saga Cat did not bond with the the babe Jon. Jon was a threat to Cat's true born (the offspring that grew of fucking Eddard) children.

As I said, it is no secret that in story Cat doesn't like Jon. Big deal. Cat did not go out of her way to harm Jon.  She just don't like him being round.

Eddard said he was not comfortable to take Jon to KL. Cat said Jon could not stay at WF. Martin sent Jon to the Wall. Before Jon left WF he wanted to say good bye to his little comatose brother.

If I look at the quote it is evident that Cat wishes the harm had befallen Jon rather than Bran:

A Game of Thrones - Jon II   He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.     "Yes?" he said.  "It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before./

I think people are way to fixated on Catelyn's "should have been you" phrase.  I get that it was an awful thing for her to say to Jon but she didn't say it in a vacuum.  There were factors in her relationship with Ned, her shared role in raising Ned's legitimate children and protecting them and her overwhelming grief that led to her uttering those words.  Did anyone else notice that she revealed her own vulnerability to Jon as "she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before."?

[Lady Barbrey]

2 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

I think people are way to fixated on Catelyn "should have been you" phrase.  I get that it was an awful thing for her to say to Jon but she didn't say it in a vacuum.  There were factors in her relationship with Ned, her shared role in raising Ned's legitimate children and protecting them and her overwhelming grief that led to her uttering those words.  Did anyone else notice that she revealed her own vulnerability to Jon as "she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before."?

Yes I mostly agree, it was a grievous time for her.  Still hard to accept those words when I step into a 15 year old's shoes.  I actually surprised myself as the story went on because I think Cat and I could have been friends, and I could have talked her out of her bad decisions re Tyrion! And made her send a raven off to Jon saying forgive me, and are you sure you want to join the Watch?  I genuinely quite liked and understood her, except when I didn't.

 

[Lady Barbrey]

38 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Not so strong as not getting it.   I don't see it.   We all know AGOT is pretty much a story with a very different vision from GRRM.   I am still frustrated over Jorah's changes--who am I kidding?   Everyone's changes!   I think in the beginning there was some reconciliation planned for much farther down the line, but I think that would have fit in a lot better if GRRM had followed his original ideas of having Cat flee to the Wall and be refused shelter (I think that's how it was supposed to go) by Jon.    Ha!   That would have been satisfying.  You are responding to my reply to @Lollygag, who was kind enough to share her thoughts.   I hope no offense is taken as that was never my intent.  

I have never liked Cat.  I've never liked Hizdar, either.   These are not characters who make choices I relate to.   Thank you for the vote of confidence in understanding my well, outrage at Mommy Dearest's actions with Bran and Rickon.   The Jon stuff is just icing on her mean, selfish, shallow lady cake.  Her nasty words to Jon did not raise my hackles like leaving Bran and Rickon did.   But that's the tell with a character, isn't it?  I was perfectly happy to let Jon tell his sweet lie to Robb and leave the entire family.  Now, my memory isn't all that great anymore and true, I am reading other works now so I may be muddled here, but I don't recall Jon thinking about Cat at all once he's firmly ensconced at the Nights Watch.   I only recall her thinking about him in her predictably awful way when Robb tells her he plans to name Jon his heir.   Gads how miserable would you have to be to have lost 2/5 of your children and your husband and get a missing child to continue to take a jab at the last brother your son thinks he has?   Just to keep the record straight, I don't buy it for a single minute that Cersei loves her kids for any measure beyond their value to her power bank.   Maybe these noble people are just all lousy parents?  

Perhaps you will join me in a laugh at myself when I tell you I thought LSH was just Cat's soul being worn inside out at 1st.   I always thought she was this awful thing.  

I will join you in a laugh!  We're all going to respond differently depending on our personalities and experience. I remember a battle I had with someone about Tywin and it still makes my blood boil.

[Starkz]

41 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

I think people are way to fixated on Catelyn's "should have been you" phrase.  I get that it was an awful thing for her to say to Jon but she didn't say it in a vacuum.  There were factors in her relationship with Ned, her shared role in raising Ned's legitimate children and protecting them and her overwhelming grief that led to her uttering those words.  Did anyone else notice that she revealed her own vulnerability to Jon as "she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before."?

Apparently Jon had never heard her call him by his name either.

[Lluewhyn]

9 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I think people are way to fixated on Catelyn's "should have been you" phrase.  I get that it was an awful thing for her to say to Jon but she didn't say it in a vacuum. 

I think the biggest problem is not the phrase, but the way she said it all perfectly composed and deliberately trying to make him think she was going to be sympathetic before tearing into him. It would have come across a lot better if she was emotional and distraught the whole time, and would make sense to a lot more people.

I'll blame this on Martin trying too hard to make a point, rather than it being an organic character flaw. It reminds of an Angel episode where the title character tries to kill Wesley (a friend who had betrayed him because he feared Angel was turning evil). He calmly tells Wesley that he understands why Wesley acted as he did, and wants him to know that he's still his true self, and hasn't turned evil. He wants to make that point clear because he then flies into a rage and tries to smother Wesley with a pillow while shouting at how furious he is at him.

Most* people in real life don't go from 0 to Antagonistic Jerkass this quickly without provocation, and it definitely seems like a fiction trope to make a character unsympathetic.

* I said most, not that there aren't any. Usually those are the kind of toxic people you try to remove from your life.