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“It should have been you.”

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11 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

It's all Ned's fault

Aside from raising Jon in the Winterfell along with the rest of the Stark kids, I always thought a root of Catelyn's hatred in the whole situation was that Ned never apologized for dishonoring her.

If Ned was more apologetic and more sensitive when Catelyn first met baby Jon, perhaps their relationship wouldn't be so bad. Ned would say something smart like "I am so sorry for dishonoring our marriage during the war, but I promised myself that if I come home alive, I would raise Jon in Winterfell, since his mother died. Please forgive Cat"

But instead, Ned frighten Catelyn for the first and only time in their marriage...and told her never speak about Jon again.

What Ned did in the books never made any logical sense to me in regards to Catelyn & baby Jon. Perhaps GRRM just wanted to start Jon as an underdog and Catelyn's attitude towards him just reminds Jon that he does not belong there.

 

Ned was a man of few words.  Long explanations followed by an apology was not his way.  The Starks are a primitive family from a savage culture.  Ned expected Cat to suck it up and live with the shame.

Edited by Moiraine Sedai

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13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

... I'm not convinced at least in my little world, that there is any reason for any parent to not to care for their child.   Especially babies.  Especially special needs children.   It's well, simply not allowed.   Cat's emotional devastation is hard for me to swallow.   I only saw this shallow woman who wanted to be a player in the intrigue.   I just don't understand how a mother could abandon her children for any mission.   It's not OK to blame emotional devastation for this brand of self serving cruelty.   Just my opinion to lend perspective.  Not in my realm of reality, Lady.   

My reaction was totally different. I'm glad Cat didn't stay at home, tearfully yet bravely holding the home together while the heroes of the family sort her problems out. I feel I've read that cliché too many times before.

Cat sees an existential threat to her family, and goes out to tackle the problem at source. It's one way of being a good mother - even though it was tough on the younger kids, who could not understand.

Remember her actions flow from her nature and upbringing. As a child, she was expected to be lord of the Riverlands, with a duty to actively protect her people, not just stay at home and hope.

Cat does love her children - very much:

Quote

[The lords] never knew my sons. Never watched Bran climb with their hearts in their throats, pride and terror so mingled they seemed as one, never heard him laugh, never smiled to see Rickon trying so fiercely to be like his older brothers.

...

When Catelyn tried to speak, the words caught in her throat. "I have no sons but Robb." She managed those terrible words without a sob, and for that much she was glad.

[ACOK - CATELYN VII]

 

Edited by Springwatch
word

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On 10/4/2018 at 9:33 PM, Springwatch said:

Ned is a paramount lord, soon to be Hand of the king - he has an infinity of options.

Perhaps not an infinity but he could have chosen Greywater Watch instead of Castle Black for Jon. Only reason he didn't is GRRM wanted Jon at the Wall, methinks. 

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1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Perhaps not an infinity but he could have chosen Greywater Watch instead of Castle Black for Jon. Only reason he didn't is GRRM wanted Jon at the Wall, methinks.

Or Ned didn't want Howland Reed or his creepy kids telling Jon tales that would put Jon and the other Starks in danger. I found it a bit odd that Howland didn't send his kids to Wintefell until Ned left. I think that while Ned respected Howland he was also a bit weirded out by the crannogmen and their queer magics.

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1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Perhaps not an infinity but he could have chosen Greywater Watch instead of Castle Black for Jon. Only reason he didn't is GRRM wanted Jon at the Wall, methinks. 

It might be taken as slight by the Reeds to foster a bastard.  Jon is a bastard regardless of who his parents are.  None of the popular parent pair can legally marry.  

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On 10/4/2018 at 7:26 PM, The Map Guy said:

But instead, Ned frighten Catelyn for the first and only time in their marriage...and told her never speak about Jon again.

No... he told her never to ask about Jon, meaning pry about who his mother was.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Cat in regard to her attitude toward Jon. I can sympathise in other respects. ... Once Ned left Winterfell she was thrust into a position she wasn't suited for. She may have been a good lady of the castle and counterpart to Ned, but not one who could take his place in any circumstances, and under the added duress of grief.

George has been telling us for years to expect his characters to be flawed to various degrees, just like real people. Catelyn was flawed, even before her death and resurrection.

Her attitude to Jon was a major flaw. As I see it, it was based in her own insecurities. She was married to Ned so as not to default on a political alliance, without even the illusion of romance. But the possibility of romance between Ned and Jon's mother existed (hello, green-eyed monster)... and forbidding any mention of Ashara probably only increased her suspicions. All of that is understandable.

But to be unable to warm to Jon through infancy and toddler-hood when children are most endearing (all the more since Jon, with his Stark looks, must have reminded her of Ned) ; to insert her dictum into a little boys' game (which wasn't always "I am the Lord of WF" but often "I am the Dragonknight" or some other hero) was petty and unnecessary. The boys would have no doubts about who was Ned's heir as they grew up.

Some readers blame Sansa for her youthful attitude to Jon (my bastard half-brother) but I'm sure she was carefully taught.

"It should have been you" may have been blurted out in heartbreak and grief, when normally it would have been tempered by reserve, but there is some real animosity behind it.

Yes Cat has some guilty thoughts later, because she knows many other women would have been more accepting. It's something of an admission, but not an excuse. 

I don't feel there needs to be a meeting of the two in the future.. Is LSH capable of knowing she was wrong, anymore? I can't see that it would make much difference to Jon - he hasn't been wasting his time hating her. He'd probably pity her condition if they met, but there's no changing what was. No matter who his parents are, she was utterly cold to him growing up.

 

Edited by bemused

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15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

As a child, she was expected to be lord of the Riverlands, with a duty to actively protect her people, not just stay at home and hope.

That would be Edmure being expected to be lord of the Riverlands, surely? And from Cat's own thoughts, AGOT , Catelyn X... 

Quote

 

Catelyn was content to wait, to listen to the whispers in the woods and the faint music of the brook, to feel the warm wind in her hair.

She was no stranger to waiting, after all. Her men had always made her wait. "Watch for me, little cat," her father would always tell her, when he rode off to court or fair or battle. And she would, standing patiently on the battlements of Riverrun as the waters of the Red Fork and the Tumblestone flowed by. He did not always come when he said he would, and days would ofttimes pass as Catelyn stood her vigil, peering out between crenels and through arrow loops until she caught a glimpse of Lord Hoster on his old brown gelding, trotting along the river-shore toward the landing. "Did you watch for me?" he'd ask when he bent to hug her. "Did you, little cat?"

 

 

Edited by bemused

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  1. How do you all think Cersei would treat one of Robert's bastards under the same circumstances?  
  2. Do you all believe Walda Frey would treat Ramsay any better if he had been a little boy when she married Roose Bolton?

I'm just asking because too many posts are expecting Catelyn to act like a saintly mother figure when it was Eddard and Jon who put her in an awkward condition.  She said what she did in a time of grief.  Jon was the intruder in that room.  It would have been courteous if he had asked her permission first before going in.  He might have asked one of the girls to ask Catelyn if he might visit with Bran awhile.  

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6 hours ago, bemused said:

No... he told her never to ask about Jon, meaning pry about who his mother was.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Cat in regard to her attitude toward Jon. I can sympathise in other respects. ... Once Ned left Winterfell she was thrust into a position she wasn't suited for. She may have been a good lady of the castle and counterpart to Ned, but not one who could take his place in any circumstances, and under the added duress of grief.

George has been telling us for years to expect his characters to be flawed to various degrees, just like real people. Catelyn was flawed, even before her death and resurrection.

Her attitude to Jon was a major flaw. As I see it, it was based in her own insecurities. She was married to Ned so as not to default on a political alliance, without even the illusion of romance. But the possibility of romance between Ned and Jon's mother existed (hello, green-eyed monster)... and forbidding any mention of Ashara probably only increased her suspicions. All of that is understandable.

But to be unable to warm to Jon through infancy and toddler-hood when children are most endearing (all the more since Jon, with his Stark looks, must have reminded her of Ned) ; to insert her dictum into a little boys' game (which wasn't always "I am the Lord of WF" but often "I am the Dragonknight" or some other hero) was petty and unnecessary. The boys would have no doubts about who was Ned's heir as they grew up.

Some readers blame Sansa for her youthful attitude to Jon (my bastard half-brother) but I'm sure she was carefully taught.

"It should have been you" may have been blurted out in heartbreak and grief, when normally it would have been tempered by reserve, but there is some real animosity behind it.

Yes Cat has some guilty thoughts later, because she knows many other women would have been more accepting. It's something of an admission, but not an excuse. 

I don't feel there needs to be a meeting of the two in the future.. Is LSH capable of knowing she was wrong, anymore? I can't see that it would make much difference to Jon - he hasn't been wasting his time hating her. He'd probably pity her condition if they met, but there's no changing what was. No matter who his parents are, she was utterly cold to him growing up.

 

I don't think having a uterus means every woman is going to be cooing over the bastard her husband brings home and forces her to accept into her household, with no say or explanation. The fact that Jon looked liked Ned while Robb looked like a Tully would only have increased Cat's insecurities as a new wife in a strange environment, with a husband she barely knew.

I think that Cat was cold and unkind to Jon, which was both unfair and affected him negatively growing up. It is a flaw but one I can understand to an extent. She had considerable resentment and insecurity about Jon that she couldn't take out on Ned because she had to make a life with him, sleep with him and bear his children. So those feelings got transferred on to Jon, the innocent party. Westerosi prejudice against bastards and the fallout from the Blackfyre rebellions provided Cat with justification for her dislike and distrust of Jon.

Sadly, both Cat and Jon took the most negative interpretation of Ned's complete silence on the subject of Jon's mother. Cat thought that whoever Jon's mother had been Ned must have loved her fiercely, while Jon thought that Ned's silence was from shame about the dishonour of his adultery, or worse, because there was something deeply shameful about Jon's mother herself. Honestly I think things would have been a lot better if Ned could have come up with some comforting lie about Jon's mother but that wasn't his style.

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3 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

I don't think having a uterus means every woman is going to be cooing over the bastard her husband brings home and forces her to accept into her household, with no say or explanation. The fact that Jon looked liked Ned while Robb looked like a Tully would only have increased Cat's insecurities as a new wife in a strange environment, with a husband she barely knew.

Yes, understandable in a new wife. ,,, Where it becomes a real flaw is that her attitude continues unabated over 14 yrs. In those years, Ned shows absolutely no sign of infidelity and they come to love and trust each other. She sees how close Jon and Robb are, and if the reader can see Jon's love for and kindness to the younger children in a few sentences, she must have seen instances of his caring daily. To never have addressed him by name until the events of AGOT is quite extreme.

 

3 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Sadly, both Cat and Jon took the most negative interpretation of Ned's complete silence on the subject of Jon's mother. Cat thought that whoever Jon's mother had been Ned must have loved her fiercely, while Jon thought that Ned's silence was from shame about the dishonour of his adultery, or worse, because there was something deeply shameful about Jon's mother herself.

Agreed.

3 hours ago, Wall Flower said:

Honestly I think things would have been a lot better if Ned could have come up with some comforting lie about Jon's mother but that wasn't his style.

Ned had his flaws as well, and a comforting lie might have helped ... but I wonder if Cat's behavior might have been worse if she thought Jon's mother was some camp follower instead of Ashara Dayne. Young Jon would have wanted to know details - what did she look like, where and when did they meet and so on, requiring a more involved lie or series of lies ... so I can see Ned's problem, too.

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10 hours ago, bemused said:

But to be unable to warm to Jon through infancy and toddler-hood when children are most endearing (all the more since Jon, with his Stark looks, must have reminded her of Ned) ; to insert her dictum into a little boys' game (which wasn't always "I am the Lord of WF" but often "I am the Dragonknight" or some other hero) was petty and unnecessary. The boys would have no doubts about who was Ned's heir as they grew up.

I don't think Cat came into this at all. But anyway, Ned seems to given Jon exactly the same upbringing as Robb. In some things, like swordfighting, Jon was the better of the two. He might have been cleverer (I'm guessing). It highlights that life is unfair.

10 hours ago, bemused said:

Some readers blame Sansa for her youthful attitude to Jon (my bastard half-brother) but I'm sure she was carefully taught.

This is an interesting one. Sansa switched to calling him 'half brother' as soon she realised what 'bastard' meant. There is no evidence that this was meant maliciously at all. Considering that 'bastard' is what Jon is super-sensitive about, it was probably meant to be kind. After all, 'half brother' doesn't say anything about legitimacy.

But both Jon and Arya seem to expect the worst from Sansa, which must say something. But we don't really see that 'something' in the text. There is 'horseface', but that seems mostly to come from Jeyne Poole.

10 hours ago, bemused said:

That would be Edmure being expected to be lord of the Riverlands, surely? And from Cat's own thoughts, AGOT , Catelyn X... 

Edmure, yes. Edmure is a maximum of ten years younger than Cat - the exact difference doesn't seem to be known. I'm assuming the age gap is big because Edmure is unmarried, and sort of acts young. I mean, he accepts Cat being the bossy older sister, which he really should be over by now. Actually this is my major objection to Cat - sometimes she seems to be undermining Robb and Edmure when she should be building them up. And I think she was a bit patronising to Renly, but I can't really remember.

The 'little cat' quote was sweet! I guess it foreshadows another vigil coming up. As to how it shaped her character, you could read it either way - either she learned patience, or she learned that the lord's job is to go out and fix problems.

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3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I don't think Cat came into this at all. But anyway, Ned seems to given Jon exactly the same upbringing as Robb. In some things, like swordfighting, Jon was the better of the two. He might have been cleverer (I'm guessing). It highlights that life is unfair.

Cat did come into it. Jon recalls playing with Robb,,,, 

Quote

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." ... ASOS, Jon XII

Boys play this sort of game from about 5 or 6 up to maybe 10 (thinking back to my own boys pretending to be this or that super hero).

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Sansa switched to calling him 'half brother' as soon she realised what 'bastard' meant. There is no evidence that this was meant maliciously at all. Considering that 'bastard' is what Jon is super-sensitive about, it was probably meant to be kind. After all, 'half brother' doesn't say anything about legitimacy.

I don't think it was meant maliciously on Sansa's part, but she wasn't getting "bastard" from Ned. ...And she was getting it at a pretty young age, since she dropped it once she knew what it meant. I think dropping it was meant not so much to be kind as to be polite. (A lady should always be courteous). She was the obedient daughter under the tutelage of Cat and Septa Mordane.... Oh, I don't think she hated Jon, but she always made the class distinction. She kept herself a bit removed. ... Her other siblings never did. To them, Jon was their brother.The boys were influenced by Ned and Rodrik Cassell, and in spite of Cat and the Septa's efforts, Arya was the disobedient daughter.

I think "half brother" does imply bastardy within the Stark family and to those that knew or knew of them. Everyone knows that Ned has had only one wife.

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

But both Jon and Arya seem to expect the worst from Sansa, which must say something. But we don't really see that 'something' in the text. There is 'horseface', but that seems mostly to come from Jeyne Poole.

Of course Arya and Sansa have the squabbling sister thing ..  and Sansa does join in Jeyne's horseface business to a lesser degree (she certainly never stopped Jeyne, which would have been quite easy) ... but I think the important thing they expect from Sansa is ... 

Quote

 

Arya knew what was coming next. They said it together.

"… don't … tell … Sansa!"

Jon messed up her hair. "I will miss you, little sister."  ...AGOT, JonII

 

Whatever they did or said was sure to make it back to Cat and Septa Mordane. The text implies that this had happened quite often.

(Not to be harsh on Sansa- she was a child, too.)

Edited by bemused

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On 10/5/2018 at 12:47 AM, White Ravens said:

I think people are way to fixated on Catelyn's "should have been you" phrase.  I get that it was an awful thing for her to say to Jon but she didn't say it in a vacuum. 

Agree.

On 10/5/2018 at 12:22 AM, Curled Finger said:

Robb knew something was wrong. "My mother …"

"She was … very kind," Jon told him.

Robb looked relieved. "Good." He smiled. "The next time I see you, you'll be all in black."   AGOT Jon 2

Thanks, Pup.   This exchange occurs between Jon and Robb as they meet after Jon said his goodbyes to Bran and Cat.   Robb asked Jon (paraphrase) how it went in the room.   Jon was the bigger person even then.  I just don't see this hanging issue that requires resolution.   Jon had nothing to gain by telling Robb the truth and it appears some small measure of relief judging by Robb's response.   

@Clegane'sPup--lost the internet connection 1st time I sent, sorry the reply is all screwed up, but I hope you can see the quote. 

Thanks. :love:

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1 hour ago, bemused said:

I don't think it was meant maliciously on Sansa's part, but she wasn't getting "bastard" from Ned. ...And she was getting it at a pretty young age, since she dropped it once she knew what it meant. I think dropping it was meant not so much to be kind as to be polite. (A lady should always be courteous). She was the obedient daughter under the tutelage of Cat and Septa Mordane.... Oh, I don't think she hated Jon, but she always made the class distinction. She kept herself a bit removed. ... Her other siblings never did. To them, Jon was their brother.The boys were influenced by Ned and Rodrik Cassell, and in spite of Cat and the Septa's efforts, Arya was the disobedient daughter.

I think "half brother" does imply bastardy within the Stark family and to those that knew or knew of them. Everyone knows that Ned has had only one wife.

You know, this topic has really begun spinning my wheels on many things that happened in AGOT.  I'm with you, Sansa was being polite to a boy she knew she shared blood with, but not at her station.   In this day and age of PCspeak and we can't help but become more aware of the words we allow to fall from our mouths.  I never really got the impression that Sansa and Jon were close--certainly not to the extent Robb and Jon were close.   Lots of siblings are not close without being nasty or hateful to each other.   And let's give Sansa a break, she was the main recipient of Cat's and the Septa's attention and influence.   She does light up a little bit at hearing about Jon's promotion, but I always thought that was her having any connection at all to a family she thought entirely dead than specifically for Jon.   Sorta like Needle represents family to Arya, Jon just represented family to Sansa.   I imagine that's sort of like learning you aren't really dead after all.   

 

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9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 She does light up a little bit at hearing about Jon's promotion,

Yes, and she has been getting first hand experience of living as a bastard (and is about to get more) and she's still only 14 or 15 (I forget). She definitely deserves some slack.

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On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 11:22 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

I remain convinced that this is the setup for an unresolved plot thread which will culminate in Lady Stoneheart and Jon meeting again, after the revelation of his true birth identity. 

A reconciliation will occur, perhaps allowing Lady Stoneheart to finally depart to the afterlife in peace. Bran will probably orchestrate it, and by then she will also know that her children still live, thus laying to rest some of the bitterness and hate keeping her alive.

Even though I believe that Jon's parentage will probably be resolved in this subplot . A reconciliation ? NEVER ! When Catelyn thought that Jon Snow's mother was Ashara Dayne , who was dead , Catelyn still wanted Ned to send the boy away .She is getting what she deserved !

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On 10/3/2018 at 11:13 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Would have liked a POV for this scene from Catelyn’s perspective, why she chose those words for Jon. It’s one of the scenes that cement her as a hate sink for some like the OOtGH (that and kidnapping Tyrion), mainly for the bile she throws his way in this scene. 

I can think of no excuse for her behavior.  The TV show purposely left this out to clean up her character.  They cleaned up Sansa, Arya, and Jon.  Jon most of all.  Benioff, Weiss, and Cogman already had an end game in mind in season 1.  They wanted to clean up the Starks to make them less controversial for the TV audience.  

Edited by Centurion Piso

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27 minutes ago, Centurion Piso said:

I can think of no excuse for her behavior.  The TV show purposely left this out to clean up her character.  They cleaned up Sansa, Arya, and Jon.  Jon most of all.  Benioff, Weiss, and Cogman already had an end game in mind in season 1.  They wanted to clean up the Starks to make them less controversial for the TV audience.  

Cat was grieving. YEs, what she said was terrible, but she was hurt, tired, sleep deprived and not in the best of emotional states. It doesn't excuse her behavior, but who hasn't said something they would want to take back when in a bad state emotionally. 

As for the TV show, viewers did not know a lot about the circumstances under which Jon was brought to WF. So Cat would have appeared even worse had they kept the line. But she is shown to dislike Jon on the show, so it's not like she is whitewashed. And she does express regret about not being kinder to Jon on the show.

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On 10/4/2018 at 10:30 PM, Curled Finger said:

Hrm, I'm not sure if you agree or disagree so I beg your pardon where I have missed your point.   To your opening statements I'm not convinced at least in my little world, that there is any reason for any parent to not to care for their child.   Especially babies.  Especially special needs children.   It's well, simply not allowed.   Cat's emotional devastation is hard for me to swallow.   I only saw this shallow woman who wanted to be a player in the intrigue.   I just don't understand how a mother could abandon her children for any mission.   It's not OK to blame emotional devastation for this brand of self serving cruelty.   Just my opinion to lend perspective.  Not in my realm of reality, Lady.   

Neither I guess so you might be accurately confused. I just think context is important to keep in place whether we agree with it or not as it mischaracterized the situation as simpler than it is. I agree with what you say here especially in the real world, but as Lady Stark and in Ned's absence and Robb's minority, she's boss and that comes with responsibilities. She's not allowed to just be a mother here. We see Dany, Cersei, and Lysa also struggle with motherhood and social obligations they must meet. Even in the real world, people find that they can't give their children all of the attention that they should have because if they do, they don't eat.

As for going to KL personally, I see that as debatable. Ned, Sansa and Arya were in danger, and as I said, she needed the revenge to be functional. As to the bolded,  this somehow comes up a lot in Sansa and Cat threads. Explanations don't equal excuses and understanding others' choices doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with them.

On 10/4/2018 at 10:30 PM, Curled Finger said:

As to being happy to be rid of Arya, you've kindly provided the quote I struggled to recall.   But that was not the entire stream, there is Cat not wanting her special boy Bran to go.  Arya needs refinement and she doesn't want to let go of Bran.  Then of course she leaves Bran when he probably needed her most.   I don't mean to sound argumentative, Lollygag.   Yours doesn't strike me as anything other than a thoughtful post--not a knee jerk reaction.   My dislike or rather disapproval of Cat doesn't sit well with you.    I get that and respect it.   We are reading the same character from different experience and won't likely agree here.  The character, Catelyn Tully Stark, strikes me as a very weak woman.  

I don't see letting go reluctantly of Arya and Sansa in her heart as being "happy to be rid of Arya". Not at all. Mothers in that world have to let go of most of their children, especially when highborn and they marry and distances are long. It's not like the modern world and I don't think we can apply modern standards. Cersei is unrealistic about letting go of Tommen and Myrcella, and then there's Lysa....We see later when Jaime is released how poorly she really let go of Arya and Sansa.

Her unapologetic favoritism is what sat the most poorly with me, but I do wonder if that's GRRM. Most of the characters show open favoritism so I have to wonder if that's just what's normal, whether it's just part of that world or what. I do see your point of view, and I agree with it, but I like to also view characters within their own world and not just mine, and I guess it's there that we disagree. I see her as a very strong character overall, but yes, when it comes to controlling certain emotions, she's quite weak. But understandably so. No matter what, she put her kids into a bad situation and abandoned them and she wasn't really able to fully appreciate this until she was able to let go of her responsibilities as Lady Stark because Robb was now old enough and experienced enough to handle it (mostly).

On 10/4/2018 at 10:30 PM, Curled Finger said:

It's entirely possible my disdain for Cat blinds me to any further importance her incarnation will have in the tale.   I'm satisfied that she would serve a strong purpose in teaching Arya about death and about mercy.  However, because you have extended yourself to me I will ask you to explain how the Jon/Cat relationship can be really be resolved.   She's dead and mean dead hanging little boys and he's got so many better things to do.   How could you get them together or in the same place?   I have read from other folks that her crown twirling is some lead into this newfound love (???) Cat will have for Jon.   

At a character level, I don't see either of them developing any love for each other. But I do see them developing an understanding. Jon may well be up for executing some Stark enemies and this would most definitely be something they have in common. I'm a bit conflicted about Stoneheart and just how complicated she is. She's been dead a while and is a vengeance zombie, but she's clearly intelligent and up to mysterious stuff, so... I'd like to see Stoneheart struggle with giving up on lesser revenge (Jon) in favor of larger scale revenge (Lannisters, Freys, Boltons). They might find each other useful. After an RLJ reveal, of course.

Some things that I think may factor in future novels:

  • Stoneheart has been hanging in Howland Reed's neck of Westeros with Ned's bones, and Howland knows things.
  • The Blackfish and the Mormonts may factor in here.
  • I use ADWD Jon II as foreshadowing and it's my lead contender among many other plausible options for Jon:
     
    • I've thought since my first read that Jon would be connected to the Vale. All of the Stark kids take something from their namesakes. Catelyn suddenly mentions Jon a lot in the Vale. Later, Sansa will as well. Huge similarities between the Wall and the Eyrie. I'm going with my gut from my first read that Jon will still end up in the Vale.
       
    • In ADWD Jon II, we get Jon as KitN foreshadowing in the Jon parallel of Artos Stark (named for Artys Arryn by Artos' Aryyn mother) ending up being Lord Stark after his elder brother is beheaded. We get RLJ foreshadowing in Sam/Gilly/Dalla's baby/Maester Aemon. Sam is a fake father of a king's son to hide and save the baby. Gilly is a mother who is parted from her child and she makes Jon promise her to not name Monster yet. Maester Aemon is a Targ who must be hidden. We also get the Azor Ahai thrown in here. Jon needs to come away from the Wall to make the KitN, RLJ stuff relevant. I also don't see how he survives the Others' attack so he must be away from the Wall when that happens.
       
    • Much is made of there being no Maesters on the Wall. We hear a lot about ship traffic there when before be heard almost nothing. Jon is sending ships to the Vale for food. Bowen Marsh is near obsessed with food, so those ships will still be sent. One of Marsh's group now runs Eastwatch. I think an unconscious/dead/believed to be dead Jon ends up on a ship to the Vale traveling not unlike Sam, Gilly and Maester Aemon did. Question will be who accompanies him, will anyone follow him, general circumstances etc. The reader needs no recount of this travel as we've seen it through Sam.

      ADWD Jon X

      Though the last part troubles me. Glendon Hewett was a seasoned man and a strong one, a sensible choice to command in Cotter Pyke's absence. But he was also as much a friend as Alliser Thorne could boast, and a crony of sorts with Janos Slynt, however briefly. Jon could still recall how Hewett had dragged him from his bed, and the feel of his boot slamming into his ribs. Not the man I would have chosen.

    • Catelyn knows that LF had a huge thing for her + Sansa disappears + Her sister dies mysteriously + LF has a sudden bastard daughter Sansa's age = Stoneheart at least suspects but maybe has yet to confirm Sansa's whereabouts. LF is now the legal uncle of all of the Stark kids and the only available guardian as no Starks or Tullys are available at present unless the Blackfish shows up or Edmure escapes. By default, LF is the only place to send Jon if he is very injured and there's no Maester at the Wall. (There's no hint -at all- that there was a witness to Marsh's attack on Jon. So I'm assuming someone turns Jon over to Marsh and Marsh pretends to be innocent). But Sansa is married to Tyrion, and Jaime is her legal brother in law and Lord and Jaime became Lord of Casterly Rock when he burned his cloak even if he doesn't quite realize it yet. Jaime's claim of guardianship over Sansa (working for Stoneheart) tops LF's claim as a non-blood uncle.

    • TWOW spoilers
       

      Spoiler

      In the Alayne chapter, we have LF at odds with Bronze Yohn about selling grain. LF wants to wait to drive up demand and therefore price but Bronze Yohn specifically will not wait.  Waymar is still lost in the NW, so Royce would most definitely rebel if it was the NW he wanted to sell to. We might have a NW ship or two in the Vale in this chapter.

      We also have this:

      When she had left Petyr Baelish that morning he had been breaking his fast with old Oswell who had arrived last night from Gulltown on a lathered horse. She hoped they might still be talking, but Petyr’s solar proved empty.

       An injured/dead/whatever Jon arriving unexpectedly on a NW ship requesting food would explain Oswell's urgency and LF's disappearance. So far, no one has been able to determine whether the timing would work, but it at least can't be excluded as impossible at this point.

      I don't believe for a minute that LF didn't pursue info on Ned and his mistress(es) and bastard(s) in an effort to get back into her circle, so I'm convinced that LF and Varys know about Jon. (Varys has no use for a Starky looking Targ as he's about power is where folks believe it is). Unlike Howland, LF would be a credible RLJ reveal (tapestries?). While the reader and Sansa know LF would lie to you about his breakfast that morning, the rest of Westeros underestimates his deviousness and only know him by his titles and long-standing position as Master of Coin in KL. This would put Jon on track for the RLJ reveal, the KitN arc, and a run-in with Stoneheart. If Jon/Ghost wanders into the Riverlands headed for the Vale...that's where Nymeria and her mega pack are.

      If Mel, maybe Val, etc follow along somehow, then we'd see them meet with Stoneheart and wouldn't that be fun. :devil: Throw in LF, even more fun :devil::devil: Some suspect with good reason that Dany and Tyrion will arrive in the Vale though this seems later if Dany is spending nearly all of TWOW still in Essos. I get the feeling that Arya will somehow end up Dany's arc (long story), and I suspect that this is how she'll come back to Westeros.

       

      I think the story needs a big bomb to connect all of the pieces to even begin to get done in two books, and this would provide this. This scenario also tied together a lot of little details throughout the recent books and this is another reason why this is my top contender for what will happen.

       

    • So I wonder if Stoneheart and Jon will see to eye to eye on gathering the Stark kids and recapturing Winterfell. Jon would NEED Winterfell as Bowen Marsh will only screw everything up against the Others, etc Anyhow, I think we'll see a Robb/Catelyn dynamic with Jon/Stoneheart. Not love though, and not really a resolution either as Catelyn and Stoneheart aren't really the same.

    • Aren't ya sorry ya asked? :P

Edited by Lollygag

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