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Interlocking Sansa and Tyrion.


chrisdaw

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Sansa's and Tyrion's coming arcs are interwoven.

Cersei says to Sansa that Tyrion, like Robert, has this disease.

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A half smile flickered across the queen's face. "Robert's trueborn son and heir. Though Joff would cry whenever Robert picked him up. His Grace did not like that. His bastards had always gurgled at him happily, and sucked his finger when he put it in their little baseborn mouths. Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?"

Cersei is correct. The majority of Tyrion's story is his clamouring for love, longing for the lost love of Tysha and ignoring the hard truth to bask in the lie of Shae's love. He is like Robert in this, and in another related way.

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"Ser Amory acted on his own in the hope of winning favor from the new king. Robert's hatred for Rhaegar was scarcely a secret."

It might serve, Tyrion had to concede, but the snake will not be happy. "Far be it from me to question your cunning, Father, but in your place I do believe I'd have let Robert Baratheon bloody his own hands."

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. "You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children." His father shrugged. "I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing."

Here Tyrion directly says he wouldn't have killed the children, that he would have left that for Robert. Tywin then tells him that Robert wouldn't have done it because he wanted to be seen as a hero. Tyrion is the same as Robert, he wants to be seen as a hero, the big strong protector.

It is a reliving of the Tysha scenario. Shae identifies this longing and uses it to manipulate him. It is the "giant of Lannister" line. He comes to her with the intent to send her away, one giant of Lannister and a root later and he's organising how to keep her around.

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"I will," she promised. "You are my lion, aren't you? My giant of Lannister?"

"I am," he said. "And you're—"

"—your whore." She laid a finger to his lips. "I know. I'd be your lady, but I never can. Else you'd take me to the feast. It doesn't matter. I like being a whore for you, Tyrion. Just keep me, my lion, and keep me safe."

Tyrion is attracted to young beautiful girls. He is especially attracted to young beautiful girls who can make him feel loved. And he is attracted to the feeling of being needed as a protector. To a manipulator these are weaknesses that can be exploited.

Sansa up until about the current point in the series has been a pawn. She has been provided information but not known how or cared to use it. Back to the original quote.

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A half smile flickered across the queen's face. "Robert's trueborn son and heir. Though Joff would cry whenever Robert picked him up. His Grace did not like that. His bastards had always gurgled at him happily, and sucked his finger when he put it in their little baseborn mouths. Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?"

Cersei tells Sansa what Tyrion wants, however pawn Sansa doesn't understand the usefulness of the information, what she can do with it, the doors it may open.

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"Theon Greyjoy." Tyrion sighed. "Your lady mother once accused me . . . well, I will not burden you with the ugly details. She accused me falsely. I never harmed your brother Bran. And I mean no harm to you."

What does he want me to say? "That is good to know, my lord." He wanted something from her, but Sansa did not know what it was. He looks like a starving child, but I have no food to give him. Why won't he leave me be?

Pawn Sansa, nothing doing upstairs, by design, to contrast with the coming player Sansa who will turn such scenarios to advantage.

Sansa has been learning skills in manipulation that Tyrion is particularly susceptible to. It is to the point where the language and themes Shae uses on Tyrion can be matched to Sansa and Sweetrobin.

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A hundred feet down, a sudden gust caught hold of them. The bucket swayed sideways, spinning in the air, then bumped hard against the rock face behind them. Shards of ice and snow rained down on them, and the oak creaked and strained. Robert gave a gasp and clung to her, burying his face between her breasts.

"My lord is brave," Alayne said, when she felt him shaking. "I'm so frightened I can hardly talk, but not you."

She felt him nod. "The Winged Knight was brave, and so am I," he boasted to her bodice. "I'm an Arryn."

"Will my Sweetrobin hold me tight?" she asked, though he was already holding her so tightly that she could scarcely breathe.

"If you like," he whispered. And clinging hard to one another, they continued on straight down to Sky.

Turning him into a hero, making him her protector, and thus getting him to do what she wants. This is direct Tyrion training complete with the sexual slant.

The central question of these two characters are these. From Tyrion's side, has he done it again? Is Sansa just another Shae? Sure she's his wife and not his whore, but does she really care for him? Does she love him at all? Or is it all an act? Her currency influence and power where Shae's was silks and jewels? Is he allowing himself to believe the lie again.

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Tyrion grinned at him. "That's good, bastard. Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it."

And on Sansa's side, where does the false manipulator end and the real Sansa Stark begin? What is her real regard for Tyrion, and just how poorly is she willing to treat him or how much is she willing to give of herself in pursuit of her goals? Is Sansa Stark still in there or is there only Sansa Lannister now?

Sansa and Tyrion are the largest part of each other's arcs. Each is designed to interlock with the other. SR is level 1 of Sansa's training for manipulating Tyrion and Harry is level 2. Tysha and Shae are for demonstrating Tyrion's weaknesses so we are familiar with them before Sansa gets in there and starts working them.

Cersei having Robert and Sansa Tyrion, and both Robert and Tyrion having the same disease is also to allow for contrast. We will be able to compare Sansa to Cersei, how Cersei handled Robert compared to how Sansa handles Tyrion. The point is to show a good player, Sansa, from a poor one, Cersei, the differences in their techniques. Tyrion will in ways be more difficult than Robert, because he's more intelligent. Sansa will handle Tyrion better than Cersei, and she will do it through building him up rather than grinding him down. It will be a general rule of how Sansa operates, through the perception of love and inspiration as opposed to fear.

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Wanton brutality is no way to win your people's love . . . or your queen's."

"Fear is better than love, Mother says." Joffrey pointed at Sansa. "She fears me."

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"The night's first traitors," the queen said, "but not the last, I fear. Have Ser Ilyn see to them, and put their heads on pikes outside the stables as a warning." As they left, she turned to Sansa. "Another lesson you should learn, if you hope to sit beside my son. Be gentle on a night like this and you'll have treasons popping up all about you like mushrooms after a hard rain. The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy."

"I will remember, Your Grace," said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.

 

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If Tyrion ever comes back to Westeros and re-unites with his second wife, will he have grown tired of being manipulated, particularly in the bedchamber? It would strain credibility if Tyrion had learned nothing from being used, being carted all over Essos, being enslaved, being repeatedly betrayed. Moreover, he's far too ugly for Sansa's delicate sensibilities. I don't think she could bring it off. Their "songs" might touch briefly, but then immediately recoil.

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I don't disagree with this, I just think it's something most girls, and boys for that matter, learn with growing up. Tell your partner every day they're beautiful/handsome, smart, adorable - groundwork for a happy marriage.  It works on me and for me.

The trick is to mean it, or be close to meaning it, or most people just can't sustain it. I don't want Sansa to become a player with Tyrion.  With Littlefinger and all the rest of the players, yes, play them.  What I'd like to see just as much is our little, romantic, shallow girl Sansa grow into a woman with depth and integrity, and learn to respect and love those who deserve it. She took a step towards that with the Hound and he responded with better intentions and protective instincts not just for her, but for her sister, in return.

So yes, I'd like her to go from pawn to player if possible. But she can't go so far down that road she's playing people like Tyrion, who has only been kind to her, or I don't see she'd be any different from Cersei, and that's a definite possibility for Sansa.

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9 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

... What I'd like to see just as much is our little, romantic, shallow girl Sansa grow into a woman with depth and integrity, and learn to respect and love those who deserve it.[...] So yes, I'd like her to go from pawn to player if possible.  [...]  But she can't go so far down that road she's playing people like Tyrion, who has only been kind to her, or I don't see she'd be any different from Cersei, and that's a definite possibility for Sansa. 

Good analysis! I also think Tyrion would catch on faster than most men, given all he's been through, and react more negatively to being "played." Tyrion is at least as good as Littlefinger, plus Tyrion has read more, been more places, and used/been used by the best of them. He'd be even more negative if he detected qualities that reminded him of his "dear" sister. Sansa would be playing with fire, if she tried to play Tyrion. I also don't think she ought to try to play Sandor ("the Hound is dead") Clegane. A dog can smell a lie, and he knows Sansa.

Sansa's best bet, in my opinion, would be to try to ally with Tyrion, should the two of them ever encounter one another again. Talk about your power couple! Tyrion even fantasized about it during the early days of their marriage - Sansa's presentability, schmooziness, ability to observe and report plus his brains.

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14 hours ago, zandru said:

Good analysis! I also think Tyrion would catch on faster than most men, given all he's been through, and react more negatively to being "played." Tyrion is at least as good as Littlefinger, plus Tyrion has read more, been more places, and used/been used by the best of them. He'd be even more negative if he detected qualities that reminded him of his "dear" sister. Sansa would be playing with fire, if she tried to play Tyrion. I also don't think she ought to try to play Sandor ("the Hound is dead") Clegane. A dog can smell a lie, and he knows Sansa.

Sansa's best bet, in my opinion, would be to try to ally with Tyrion, should the two of them ever encounter one another again. Talk about your power couple! Tyrion even fantasized about it during the early days of their marriage - Sansa's presentability, schmooziness, ability to observe and report plus his brains.

Agree about the alliance with Tyrion.  I've actually always thought if there's still an Iron Throne at the end of this, it will be hers and Tyrion's.  Kind of ironic, because whatever magical role Jon might play, this power couple will be another combo of ice and fire if Tyrion's a Targ, which I think he is.  As for their relationship, she may never fall in love with him or he with her for that matter, but they both have sincerely good and kind qualities and family loyalty, so there's no reason they can't have a solid partnership and discrete lovers, which seems to be the norm for royal families in arranged marriages anyway.  I'm kind of done with watching either of them have love lives.  She's been too young and it makes me squeamish; he's now murdered Shae and contributed to raping Tysha - he really doesn't deserve a happy ever after in love.

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I don't hate the idea of Sansa and Tyrion together. I would hate it if she were just manipulating him. They do compliment each other nicely and could have made a good match of it in better circumstances. At the time of their marriage, however, that was not possible. Sansa was in survival mode and Tyrion was a hated Lannister - end of story.

As the OP mentioned, the bit about Sansa that always sticks with me is how she learns from those around her, but the lessons she learns has a Sansa spin to it. She learns a lot from Cersei, but she decides that she does not want the people to fear her, but to love her. And I think she truly means that. If she were to have no regard for Tyrion, she's smart enough to realize that he'd see through it and would resent and come to hate her for it. Her better option here is to have an honest and civil relationship with him and see how it develops. That's not to say she can't use mild (non-malicious) manipulations on him, but not thick manipulation or outright lies.

 

As an aside, I disagree that Tyrion doesn't deserve a happily ever after in love. Yes, he's done horrible things, but horrible things have been done to him as well. Tywin was intimately involved with the fate of Tysha and Shae and how Tyrion responded to those situations. Tyrion may not think he deserves a happily ever after, but that's his issue to resolve. Everyone deserves love if they can find it.

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On 10/6/2018 at 2:51 AM, Lady Barbrey said:

The trick is to mean it, or be close to meaning it, or most people just can't sustain it. I don't want Sansa to become a player with Tyrion.  With Littlefinger and all the rest of the players, yes, play them.  What I'd like to see just as much is our little, romantic, shallow girl Sansa grow into a woman with depth and integrity, and learn to respect and love those who deserve it. She took a step towards that with the Hound and he responded with better intentions and protective instincts not just for her, but for her sister, in return.

So yes, I'd like her to go from pawn to player if possible. But she can't go so far down that road she's playing people like Tyrion, who has only been kind to her, or I don't see she'd be any different from Cersei, and that's a definite possibility for Sansa.

We don’t need another Cersei. 

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6 hours ago, Gertrude said:

 

As an aside, I disagree that Tyrion doesn't deserve a happily ever after in love. Yes, he's done horrible things, but horrible things have been done to him as well. Tywin was intimately involved with the fate of Tysha and Shae and how Tyrion responded to those situations. Tyrion may not think he deserves a happily ever after, but that's his issue to resolve. Everyone deserves love if they can find it.

Well, this is true, but since Tywin died, he's been in a downward spiral and his treatment of Penny was distasteful.  I'll want to see him pull himself up into the great character we know he can be before I bestow any well wishes on him.

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10 hours ago, Gertrude said:

If she were to have no regard for Tyrion, she's smart enough to realize that he'd see through it and would resent and come to hate her for it. Her better option here is to have an honest and civil relationship with him and see how it develops. That's not to say she can't use mild (non-malicious) manipulations on him, but not thick manipulation or outright lies.

No, the greatest portion of Tyrion's arc has been dedicated to explaining that he will allow himself to be manipulated if the person is able to make him feel loved, while Sansa is busy learning how to make people fall in love with her and manipulate them. Sansa is a player in the game of thrones and Tyrion is a Florian, that is what is being meticulously primed.

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I see that point of view, and I think that's been mainly true up to this point. I admit, I'm kind of projecting Tyrion's future development into this scenario. the Tysha reveal is a complete bombshell for him. She did love him after all, he is lovable. With Shae, he was working on the premise that no one could love him like that. After climbing out the other side of the bottle and self-loathing, I think he's going to have a different approach to romantic relationships. 

If Sansa gets to grow and change, then Tyrion should also.

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On 10/5/2018 at 9:37 PM, zandru said:

If Tyrion ever comes back to Westeros and re-unites with his second wife, will he have grown tired of being manipulated, particularly in the bedchamber? It would strain credibility if Tyrion had learned nothing from being used, being carted all over Essos, being enslaved, being repeatedly betrayed. Moreover, he's far too ugly for Sansa's delicate sensibilities. I don't think she could bring it off. Their "songs" might touch briefly, but then immediately recoil.

It would be total lack of character growth for Tyrion to continue on that path.  Wanting to be loved is a human need.  Most people get it from their families and eventually find somebody who will.  Tyrion never got it from his family.  Only Tysha gave him real love.  Penny has the potential to love him.  Will Tyrion continue to chase after the women he wants or accept the one who already loves him?  

On 10/4/2018 at 6:22 PM, chrisdaw said:

Tyrion is attracted to young beautiful girls. He is especially attracted to young beautiful girls who can make him feel loved. And he is attracted to the feeling of being needed as a protector. To a manipulator these are weaknesses that can be exploited.

Sansa up until about the current point in the series has been a pawn. She has been provided information but not known how or cared to use it. Back to the original quote

Sansa understood enough.  But you are asking a spoiled girl to get past Tyrion's appearance.   It's not going to happen with Sansa.

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1 hour ago, Bowen Marsh said:

It would be total lack of character growth for Tyrion to continue on that path.  Wanting to be loved is a human need.  Most people get it from their families and eventually find somebody who will.  Tyrion never got it from his family.  Only Tysha gave him real love.  Penny has the potential to love him.  Will Tyrion continue to chase after the women he wants or accept the one who already loves him?  

Sansa understood enough.  But you are asking a spoiled girl to get past Tyrion's appearance.   It's not going to happen with Sansa.

Tyrion's not growing until the very very end when eventually it all blows up and he faces the fact that Sansa never loved him, and he doesn't destroy the world. That's his growth, to not repeat ADWD and try and leave everyone else nothing but ash because he can't have what he wants.

Sansa was not a player, she did not understand how to use information to her advantage, when the two reunite she will be and will know. She's not going to look past his appearance and love him, she's going to look past his appearance and use him as a tool through which she can rule Westeros. Cersei to Robert, Joff, Tommen. Marge to Joff. LF to Joff. LF to Lisa. Lysa to SR. LF to SR. And now Alayne to SR. The series has shown how this is done and mostly within Sansa's eyesight. Little bird listens, learns and repeats. Tyrion doesn't have to look pretty to her for this role, she just has to be able to get him to do what she wants. He is her piece.

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2 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

It would be total lack of character growth for Tyrion to continue on that path.  Wanting to be loved is a human need.  Most people get it from their families and eventually find somebody who will.  Tyrion never got it from his family.  Only Tysha gave him real love.  Penny has the potential to love him.  Will Tyrion continue to chase after the women he wants or accept the one who already loves him?  

Sansa understood enough.  But you are asking a spoiled girl to get past Tyrion's appearance.   It's not going to happen with Sansa.

The girl fantasizes about the Hound already. The major problem with Tyrion is that she pities him and pity and desire don't mix.

AGOT Sansa II

The right side of his face was gaunt, with sharp cheekbones and a grey eye beneath a heavy brow. His nose was large and hooked, his hair thin, dark. He wore it long and brushed it sideways, because no hair grew on the other side of that face.

The left side of his face was a ruin. His ear had been burned away; there was nothing left but a hole. His eye was still good, but all around it was a twisted mass of scar, slick black flesh hard as leather, pocked with craters and fissured by deep cracks that gleamed red and wet when he moved. Down by his jaw, you could see a hint of bone where the flesh had been seared away.

ACOK Sansa II

She flew along the river walk, past the small kitchen, and through the pig yard, her hurried footsteps lost beneath the squealing of the hogs in their pens. Home, she thought, home, he is going to take me home, he'll keep me safe, my Florian. The songs about Florian and Jonquil were her very favorites. Florian was homely too, though not so old.

ASOS Sansa I

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

ASOS Sansa II

The cousins took Sansa into their company as if they had known her all their lives. They spent long afternoons doing needlework and talking over lemon cakes and honeyed wine, played at tiles of an evening, sang together in the castle sept . . . and often one or two of them would be chosen to share Margaery's bed, where they would whisper half the night away. Alla had a lovely voice, and when coaxed would play the woodharp and sing songs of chivalry and lost loves. Megga couldn't sing, but she was mad to be kissed. She and Alla played a kissing game sometimes, she confessed, but it wasn't the same as kissing a man, much less a king. Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

ASOS Sansa III

He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realized. Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire. He was looking at her, waiting for her to say something, but all her words had withered. She could only stand there trembling.

AFFC Alayne II

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

 

ASOS Sansa V

Littlefinger smiled. "Widowhood will become you, Sansa."

The thought made her tummy flutter. She might never need to share a bed with Tyrion again. That was what she'd wanted . . . wasn't it?

 

ASOS Sansa VII

I will tell my aunt that I don't want to marry Robert. Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows. She wasn't a beggar, no matter what her aunt said. She was thirteen, a woman flowered and wed, the heir to Winterfell. Sansa felt sorry for her little cousin sometimes, but she could not imagine ever wanting to be his wife. I would sooner be married to Tyrion again. If Lady Lysa knew that, surely she'd send her away . . . away from Robert's pouts and shakes and runny eyes, away from Marillion's lingering looks, away from Petyr's kisses. I will tell her. I will!

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

The girl fantasizes about the Hound already. The major problem with Tyrion is that she pities him and pity and desire don't mix.

AGOT Sansa II

 

The right side of his face was gaunt, with sharp cheekbones and a grey eye beneath a heavy brow. His nose was large and hooked, his hair thin, dark. He wore it long and brushed it sideways, because no hair grew on the other side of that face.

 

The left side of his face was a ruin. His ear had been burned away; there was nothing left but a hole. His eye was still good, but all around it was a twisted mass of scar, slick black flesh hard as leather, pocked with craters and fissured by deep cracks that gleamed red and wet when he moved. Down by his jaw, you could see a hint of bone where the flesh had been seared away.

 

ACOK Sansa II

 

She flew along the river walk, past the small kitchen, and through the pig yard, her hurried footsteps lost beneath the squealing of the hogs in their pens. Home, she thought, home, he is going to take me home, he'll keep me safe, my Florian. The songs about Florian and Jonquil were her very favorites. Florian was homely too, though not so old.

 

ASOS Sansa I

 

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside . . . she could scarcely imagine it.

 

ASOS Sansa II

 

The cousins took Sansa into their company as if they had known her all their lives. They spent long afternoons doing needlework and talking over lemon cakes and honeyed wine, played at tiles of an evening, sang together in the castle sept . . . and often one or two of them would be chosen to share Margaery's bed, where they would whisper half the night away. Alla had a lovely voice, and when coaxed would play the woodharp and sing songs of chivalry and lost loves. Megga couldn't sing, but she was mad to be kissed. She and Alla played a kissing game sometimes, she confessed, but it wasn't the same as kissing a man, much less a king. Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

 

ASOS Sansa III

 

He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realized. Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire. He was looking at her, waiting for her to say something, but all her words had withered. She could only stand there trembling.

 

AFFC Alayne II

 

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

 

 

 

ASOS Sansa V

 

Littlefinger smiled. "Widowhood will become you, Sansa."

 

The thought made her tummy flutter. She might never need to share a bed with Tyrion again. That was what she'd wanted . . . wasn't it?

 

 

 

ASOS Sansa VII

 

I will tell my aunt that I don't want to marry Robert. Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows. She wasn't a beggar, no matter what her aunt said. She was thirteen, a woman flowered and wed, the heir to Winterfell. Sansa felt sorry for her little cousin sometimes, but she could not imagine ever wanting to be his wife. I would sooner be married to Tyrion again. If Lady Lysa knew that, surely she'd send her away . . . away from Robert's pouts and shakes and runny eyes, away from Marillion's lingering looks, away from Petyr's kisses. I will tell her. I will!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well he was pretty tentative with her at the same time trying to be nice.  And she was in an impossibly stressful situation and her experiences have made her very untrusting to boot.  I wonder how she'd feel about him if they could go through a period of calm and she could see his strengths like we do.  Other than his family, people do tend to like and even love Tyrion once they get to know him.  I'm even convinced Shae did, as much as pragmatic, self-centered Shae could.

So I think you're right, she could love him.  I know I could, with that wit, but I must confess to seeing Peter Dinklage's face these days when I think of Tyrion, so that's not quite the same Tyrion she sees!

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3 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

So I think you're right, she could love [Tyrion].  I know I could, with that wit, but I must confess to seeing Peter Dinklage's face these days when I think of Tyrion, so that's not quite the same Tyrion she sees!

Yes, it's been a constant disappointment for me, how good-looking Peter Dinklage is, even after the Blackwater, and contrasting it with the books! But getting back to San-San, it's clear that Sansa loves the idea of the Hound more than Sandor Clegane, the man. If she could start to see Tyrion for what he is, not what he looks like, she would have a greater appreciation of his worth as a human being. Like her beloved "father" Petyr, he understands the politics and the players - but unlike Littlefinger, Tyrion has been striving for justice, for protection of the people (note his many efforts to get food into King's Landing, while Cersei/Joffrey were unconcerned that everyone outside the Red Keep was starving.)

If Sansa had the opportunity to see what Tyrion had done, she might have thought better of him. But she was right there in King's Landing while Tyrion was Hand; she'd been rescued from Joffrey by Tyrion; she could see, had she the eyes for it, the difference between Tyrion and all the other Lannisters - but she did not. With her selective, self-supporting memory, she isn't going to remember any of it, either.

Now that Tyrion is gone, we don't know for how long, and a darker, bitter, more tortured side of him has emerged, we may never again see the old Tyrion, even if he does return to Westeros. So Sansa is left with Petyr Baelish, whose main goal is to make everyone else unhappy - and maybe get into Sansa's skirts while he's at it. Look for it as his excuse to "train her" in the feminine wiles, heh heh.

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

If Sansa had the opportunity to see what Tyrion had done, she might have thought better of him. But she was right there in King's Landing while Tyrion was Hand; she'd been rescued from Joffrey by Tyrion; she could see, had she the eyes for it, the difference between Tyrion and all the other Lannisters - but she did not. With her selective, self-supporting memory, she isn't going to remember any of it, either.

I don't think that's fair. When she was in King's Landing, she was in a state of constant trauma. Joff was nice to her at one point too, but turned out to be a monster. She does acknowledge that Tyrion was kind to her, but he is also a hated Lannister. The Lannisters killed her father after promising to spare him. The Lannisters were involved with the Red Wedding, causing a masacre under cover of the guest-right. Not only have the Lannisters proven that they are not her friends, they have lied and betrayed at every step. Why isn't she right to be wary of Tyrion? In the best of times she might have seen him for who he is, but these were far from the best of times.

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Tyrion rescued Sansa from Joffrey - once. And the beatings were frequent. It's not possible Tyrion could be completely ignorant of this (gossip, informants, knowledge of Joff's character), yet he only intervenes when it happens under his nose.

When Sansa was missing in the bread riots (and presumably getting gang raped and/or murdered) - Tyrion didn't care; his only thought was for Jaime.

'Kindness' for Tyrion is something he does on the spur of the moment to boost his self-image. I don't think he even notices the shallowness of it.

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49 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

When Sansa was missing in the bread riots (and presumably getting gang raped and/or murdered) - Tyrion didn't care; his only thought was for Jaime.

No, this isn't true at all. Tyrion's first thought after everybody was behind the walls of the Red Keep were "Where's Sansa?" And we see his relief when the Hound, who he also seemed concerned about**, comes riding in on Sansa's horse, with her clinging on behind him.

51 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Tyrion rescued Sansa from Joffrey - once. And the beatings were frequent.

We don't have a good read on how frequent "frequent" was, and particularly not whether the frequency decreased after Tyrion's intervention. I don't think it's safe to draw this particular conclusion. Note that Tyrion did offer to Sansa that she could stay in the Hand's Tower, under his protection from Joffrey, indefinitely. But she refused him, just as she refused the Hound's offer to take her home. By your logic, this would be proof that Sansa was fine with where she was. (My interpretation was that she hadn't thought it through.)

56 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I don't think he even notices the shallowness of it. 

This is a great observation, in general, about Tyrion! While he's good with the politics and understanding men, any time women who aren't Cersei are involved, he has huge blind spots.

------------------

** Admittedly, Tyrion's "concern" with Sandor Clegane seemed mainly that it was a good cudgel to hit Joffrey over the head with - look what you did! you've gotten your favorite toy KILLED!

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49 minutes ago, zandru said:

We don't have a good read on how frequent "frequent" was, and particularly not whether the frequency decreased after Tyrion's intervention. I don't think it's safe to draw this particular conclusion. Note that Tyrion did offer to Sansa that she could stay in the Hand's Tower, under his protection from Joffrey, indefinitely. But she refused him, just as she refused the Hound's offer to take her home. By your logic, this would be proof that Sansa was fine with where she was. (My interpretation was that she hadn't thought it through.)

If you read between the lines here, this a lot of beatings, almost to the point it strains belief. We don't know about the frequency of the beatings after Tyrion's intervention, but it would have been noted if Tyrion had issued an order forbidding it. Cersei and Joff had no respect for Tyrion, so they'd not have deferred to his wishes on this without some force behind it on Tyrion's part.

These are from ACOK Sansa III which is the same chapter where Tyrion intervenes.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/150894-sansa-and-cognitive-dissonance/&do=findComment&comment=8168977

In ASOS, we see the beatings continue. Note that Sansa says Tyrion saved her from a beating "that day".

ASOS Sansa I

Sansa felt as though her heart had lodged in her throat. The Queen of Thorns was so close she could smell the old woman's sour breath. Her gaunt thin fingers were pinching her wrist. To her other side, Margaery was listening as well. A shiver went through her. "A monster," she whispered, so tremulously she could scarcely hear her own voice. "Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher's boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He's evil and cruel, my lady, it's so. And the queen as well."

ASOS Sansa III

Brave. Sansa took a deep breath. I am a Stark, yes, I can be brave. They were all looking at her, the way they had looked at her that day in the yard when Ser Boros Blount had torn her clothes off. It had been the Imp who saved her from a beating that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself. "I'll go."

 

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