Interlocking Sansa and Tyrion.

[zandru]

13 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

If you read between the lines here, this a lot of beatings, almost to the point it strains belief.

If there were, in fact, that many frequent beatings, Sansa would have commented on it. There were enough to keep her in a state of terror around Joffrey, but then, Sansa is afraid of everything. Her narratives don't mention constant pain, or lameness, or having to wear loose clothing, or other signs of "frequent beyond belief." This isn't to minimize her experience, of course, just to keep from exagerating it to where it, er,  strains belief.

16 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

it would have been noted if Tyrion had issued an order forbidding it.

Good catch! But, as you observed, can a Hand who is hated by the Queen and disrespected by the King himself, successfully issue an order regulating the King's personal conduct? Who would Tyrion order? The King's Guard, whose loyalty is only to Joffrey?

My guess is that Tyrion failed to follow up on the Sansa thing, having other business on his mind. Also, her response to his offer of help seemed to minimize how significant that one beating that Tyrion saw, was. Tyrion may never have realized how often Joffrey was doing this. Of course, Sansa rejected Tyrion's help because she could see no difference between her rescuer and her tormenters. They were Lannisters, full stop. But you can't lay that on Tyrion.

[Lollygag]

2 hours ago, zandru said:

If there were, in fact, that many frequent beatings, Sansa would have commented on it. There were enough to keep her in a state of terror around Joffrey, but then, Sansa is afraid of everything. Her narratives don't mention constant pain, or lameness, or having to wear loose clothing, or other signs of "frequent beyond belief." This isn't to minimize her experience, of course, just to keep from exagerating it to where it, er,  strains belief.

It doesn't entirely make sense to me either. Sansa describes developing the instinctive habit quickly of telling Joff what he wanted to hear as a beating would follow which means lots of beatings. She's very clear about an established pattern with Joff and the individual KG members. She knows how they hit which means she was hit often enough by each of them who follow the orders to establish a pattern. If you just add it up, the numbers are there. Maybe reread the quotes in the link if you've missed it? I missed it several times, too.

Generally, GRRM keeps his characters from describing the worst of their misery because if every character described this in a lot of detail or with the frequency it happens, then the books would be unreadable. So no, Sansa doesn't talk about it much which is consistent with the pains of the other characters. GRRM does however tell us how the various characters suffer in more subtle ways and he does exactly this in the quotes from the links I supplied.

But I do agree with you that it would seem like there should be more side mentions of pain, needing loose clothing, trouble sleeping, etc. I think that this may be something which wasn't entirely thought through in the writing. The focus seems to more on her emotional reaction to the beatings. Sansa knows things and has learned things which only result from frequent beatings so I'm going with that as the statements don't make sense otherwise.

2 hours ago, zandru said:

Good catch! But, as you observed, can a Hand who is hated by the Queen and disrespected by the King himself, successfully issue an order regulating the King's personal conduct? Who would Tyrion order? The King's Guard, whose loyalty is only to Joffrey?

My guess is that Tyrion failed to follow up on the Sansa thing, having other business on his mind. Also, her response to his offer of help seemed to minimize how significant that one beating that Tyrion saw, was. Tyrion may never have realized how often Joffrey was doing this. Of course, Sansa rejected Tyrion's help because she could see no difference between her rescuer and her tormenters. They were Lannisters, full stop. But you can't lay that on Tyrion.

The bolded is a huge part of Tyrion's KL arc. He knows that LF set him up with the daggar and has no illusions of this, but he can't get past his hatred and paranoia of Cersei and this is who he thinks of most. LF is almost an afterthought relative to what he did. He's preoccupied by his father and Shae, He does it again with Alliser. He knows that Alliser was sent by Jeor whom he likes and respects, but because he hates Alliser, he is childish and puts Alliser off over and over and then trivializes what Alliser says so that Tyrion isn't embarrassed by looking like he believes any of it. He doesn't even follow up with Alliser when they're in private to see what Jeor wants. I don't blame Tyrion for forgetting Sansa and I agree that his hands would be tied to really do anything here.

But I strongly disagree with the underlined. There is no insignificant or less significant beating. Period. Each one is very significant.

As for Tyrion's help, Sansa knew who Tyrion had to answer to and it was Tywin, Cersei, and one day, Joff. Tyrion was in no position to even offer help of any substance until they married. Even then, that help and protection was shaky as Tyrion's position was shaky.

If Sansa had trusted Tyrion, the fandom would have condemned her as betraying her family all over again, of being stupid again and of not learning her lesson. But Sansa did learn her lesson about the Lannisters. Can't have it both ways.

[Lollygag]

More directly to the OP -

Something like this may happen, but I'm doubting the scale. What exactly is Sansa's goal? Right now she's found happiness as a bastard and just wants to go home. If Tyrion arrives in Westeros with Dany, he likely won't arrive until the end of TWOW or ADOS, so there are time limits here if there are two books left. We were left with no question as to their feelings for each other: Sansa was clear that she doesn't love him though being married to him wasn't the worst thing. Tyrion was hopeful that they could find at least some friendship, but this is where they were right before the Purple Wedding.

ASOS Tyrion VIII

Tyrion could hear the commons shouting out King Joffrey's name. In three years that cruel boy will be a man, ruling in his own right . . . and every dwarf with half his wits will be a long way from King's Landing. Oldtown, perhaps. Or even the Free Cities. He had always had a yen to see the Titan of Braavos. Perhaps that would please Sansa. Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.

Curiously, when Shae wants to go to the Purple Wedding,

ASOS Tyrion II

"Shae," he groaned, "it is not safe."

For a time she said nothing at all. Tyrion tried to speak of other things, but he met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he'd once walked in the north. Gods be good, he thought wearily as he watched the candle burn down and begin to gutter, how could I let this happen again, after Tysha? Am I as great a fool as my father thinks? Gladly would he have given her the promise she wanted, and gladly walked her back to his own bedchamber on his arm to let her dress in the silks and velvets she loved so much. Had the choice been his, she could have sat beside him at Joffrey's wedding feast, and danced with all the bears she liked. But he could not see her hang.

 

Tyrion comes to see them as two sides of the same coin, his coin. The Lannisters have a persistent pattern of this theater mask two-faced quality. Tyrion himself has two faces (two hair colors, two hair colors), Jaime laughs while Cersei scowls, Tywin scowls but Joanna was his smile. Tytos' joys turns to sorrow. Tyrion dreams that he has two heads where one laughs and the other cries.

ASOS Tyrion VIII

Shae was helping Sansa with her hair when they entered the bedchamber. Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together. Laughter and tears.

I don't see enough development between Sansa and Tyrion for there to be some interaction of this significance later on. That, and Tyrion is clearly evolving in this area. It's Tyrion who seems to be evolving into Cersei with his bitterness, paranoia, thirst for revenge, newfound brutality (the rape and being unconflicted when Illyrio tells Tyrion that to crown Myrcella is to kill her). We'll have to wait and see if Tyrion rights himself.

ADWD Tyrion I

"I believe I have changed my mind," he told her. "Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I'll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly." He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf. Even Lord Tywin had not been afraid, though Tyrion had held a crossbow in his hands. "Do you moan when you are being fucked?" he asked the bedwarmer.

"If it please m'lord."

"It might please m'lord to strangle you. That's how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me." This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted.

I see Tyrion’s relationship to the Starks as a whole, not so much on individual terms. Despite the Starks hating the Lannisters, all of them but Arya (and I think that's coming) has a positive relationship with him. All of these have to be going somewhere.

Jon made friends with Tyrion and still holds a good opinion of him.

Bran received the special saddle from Tyrion and it was Tyrion who taught Bran that he could live a good life, though it would be harder and different.

Sansa receives genuine kindness from Tyrion, though it’s sporadic. She acknowledges that being married to him isn’t the worst thing.

Catelyn comes to realize that she was wrong about Tyrion. In desperation, she decides to trust him to return Arya and Sansa with Jaime’s release. Will Stoneheart feel she owes Tyrion a debt?

As for Arya, if she doesn’t get a significant positive connection to Tyrion, I think this hints that she will somehow be isolated from the rest of her family somehow. But I think it’s likely that Arya will end up Dany’s and Tyrion’s arc and will come back to Westeros with them.

[Hugorfonics]

On 10/8/2018 at 4:01 PM, zandru said:

If there were, in fact, that many frequent beatings, Sansa would have commented on it. There were enough to keep her in a state of terror around Joffrey, but then, Sansa is afraid of everything. Her narratives don't mention constant pain, or lameness, or having to wear loose clothing, or other signs of "frequent beyond belief." This isn't to minimize her experience, of course, just to keep from exagerating it to where it, er,  strains belief.

"You look very lovely today, my lady," Ser Arys said.

"Thank you, ser." Knowing that Joffrey would require her to attend the tourney in his honor, Sansa had taken special care with her face and clothes. She wore a gown of pale purple silk and a moonstone hair net that had been a gift from Joffrey. The gown had long sleeves to hide the bruises on her arms. Those were Joffrey's gifts as well. When they told him that Robb had been proclaimed King in the North, his rage had been a fearsome thing, and he had sent Ser Boros to beat her.

 

 

She crushed the parchment to her chest and whispered the words to herself. "Come to the godswood tonight, if you want to go home," she breathed, ever so faintly.

What could it mean? Should she take it to the queen to prove that she was being good? Nervously, she rubbed her stomach. The angry purple bruise Ser Meryn had given her had faded to an ugly yellow, but still hurt. His fist had been mailed when he hit her. It was her own fault. She must learn to hide her feelings better, so as not to anger Joffrey. When she heard that the imp had sent Lord Slynt to the Wall, she had forgotten herself and said, "I hope the Others get him." The king had not been pleased. 

 

There's plenty of talk of Sansa hiding her brusies and being in pain pretty much always, which she basically says

 

When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me

 

Theres no way to exaggerate any of this.

On 10/8/2018 at 4:01 PM, zandru said:

Good catch! But, as you observed, can a Hand who is hated by the Queen and disrespected by the King himself, successfully issue an order regulating the King's personal conduct? Who would Tyrion order? The King's Guard, whose loyalty is only to Joffrey?

Tyrion said stop and they did. They continued later (im almost sure) but then she was safe.

Im positive that the queen was aware of this, probably not to the extent that it was though.

But legally, Tyrions the boss. Hes the hand, in charge of everything. But legal issues aside, the KG were sadistic and terrible

 

"Ser Meryn." Jaime smiled at the sour knight with the rust-red hair and the pouches under his eyes. "I have heard it said that Joffrey made use of you to chastise Sansa Stark." He turned the White Book around one-handed. "Here, show me where it is in our vows that we swear to beat women and children."

"I did as His Grace commanded me. We are sworn to obey."

"Henceforth you will temper that obedience. My sister is Queen Regent. My father is the King's Hand. I am Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Obey us. None other." Ser Meryn got a stubborn look on his face.

"Are you telling us not to obey the king?"

"The king is eight. Our first duty is to protect him, which includes protecting him from himself. Use that ugly thing you keep inside your helm. If Tommen wants you to saddle his horse, obey him. If he tells you to kill his horse, come to me."

[Springwatch]

On 10/8/2018 at 7:30 PM, zandru said:

No, this isn't true at all. Tyrion's first thought after everybody was behind the walls of the Red Keep were "Where's Sansa?" And we see his relief when the Hound, who he also seemed concerned about**, comes riding in on Sansa's horse, with her clinging on behind him.

We don't have a good read on how frequent "frequent" was, and particularly not whether the frequency decreased after Tyrion's intervention. I don't think it's safe to draw this particular conclusion. Note that Tyrion did offer to Sansa that she could stay in the Hand's Tower, under his protection from Joffrey, indefinitely. But she refused him, just as she refused the Hound's offer to take her home. By your logic, this would be proof that Sansa was fine with where she was. (My interpretation was that she hadn't thought it through.)

This is a great observation, in general, about Tyrion! While he's good with the politics and understanding men, any time women who aren't Cersei are involved, he has huge blind spots.

------------------

** Admittedly, Tyrion's "concern" with Sandor Clegane seemed mainly that it was a good cudgel to hit Joffrey over the head with - look what you did! you've gotten your favorite toy KILLED!

Yeah, Tyrion. You're right about the politics (and the women, mostly), but I still don't understand him. Maybe that dream of having two heads is a pointer to something, some personality disorder, I don't know.

Anyway, it's the same story with Tommen and Myrcella. Those kids really love him, he must have given them a lot of affection and understanding at some time. But when it comes to the game of thrones, he really does treat them like pawns on the cyvasse board - and when they're gone, he shows no sympathy, anxiety for their wellbeing, or anything. Not a backward glance.

I don't detect anything concrete showing sympathy for Sansa and the Hound at the bread riots, but to be fair, there was another emergency starting (the fire) and Tyrion was right to move on straight to that.

Sansa's own reason for not staying with Tyrion in the Tower of the Hand was that she needed access to the godswood to meet Dontos. I agree she didn't have time to think it through, and I don't think this shows distrust of Tyrion particularly.

In answer to the OP, I have not a clue where the Tyrion/Sansa relationship is going. I'm only sure they'll meet up again.

[Guest]

I dont think there will be any real alliance, relationship, or common ground. When Tyrion meets Sansa again I think it will be his last test to see if he's capable of holding his tongue and keeping his dick in his pants. I think he might read Sansa incorrectly again and try to "consummate" their marriage in a desperate grab to claim Winterfell for Dany, once his plans for the Targaryen campaign go awry and Jon's parentage is revealed.

[Lady Barbrey]

On 10/8/2018 at 6:28 PM, Lollygag said:

More directly to the OP -

Something like this may happen, but I'm doubting the scale. What exactly is Sansa's goal? Right now she's found happiness as a bastard and just wants to go home. If Tyrion arrives in Westeros with Dany, he likely won't arrive until the end of TWOW or ADOS, so there are time limits here if there are two books left. We were left with no question as to their feelings for each other: Sansa was clear that she doesn't love him though being married to him wasn't the worst thing. Tyrion was hopeful that they could find at least some friendship, but this is where they were right before the Purple Wedding.

ASOS Tyrion VIII

 

Tyrion could hear the commons shouting out King Joffrey's name. In three years that cruel boy will be a man, ruling in his own right . . . and every dwarf with half his wits will be a long way from King's Landing. Oldtown, perhaps. Or even the Free Cities. He had always had a yen to see the Titan of Braavos. Perhaps that would please Sansa. Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.

Curiously, when Shae wants to go to the Purple Wedding,

 

ASOS Tyrion II

 

"Shae," he groaned, "it is not safe."

 

For a time she said nothing at all. Tyrion tried to speak of other things, but he met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he'd once walked in the north. Gods be good, he thought wearily as he watched the candle burn down and begin to gutter, how could I let this happen again, after Tysha? Am I as great a fool as my father thinks? Gladly would he have given her the promise she wanted, and gladly walked her back to his own bedchamber on his arm to let her dress in the silks and velvets she loved so much. Had the choice been his, she could have sat beside him at Joffrey's wedding feast, and danced with all the bears she liked. But he could not see her hang.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tyrion comes to see them as two sides of the same coin, his coin. The Lannisters have a persistent pattern of this theater mask two-faced quality. Tyrion himself has two faces (two hair colors, two hair colors), Jaime laughs while Cersei scowls, Tywin scowls but Joanna was his smile. Tytos' joys turns to sorrow. Tyrion dreams that he has two heads where one laughs and the other cries.

ASOS Tyrion VIII

 

Shae was helping Sansa with her hair when they entered the bedchamber. Joy and grief, he thought when he beheld them there together. Laughter and tears.

 

I don't see enough development between Sansa and Tyrion for there to be some interaction of this significance later on. That, and Tyrion is clearly evolving in this area. It's Tyrion who seems to be evolving into Cersei with his bitterness, paranoia, thirst for revenge, newfound brutality (the rape and being unconflicted when Illyrio tells Tyrion that to crown Myrcella is to kill her). We'll have to wait and see if Tyrion rights himself.

 

 

ADWD Tyrion I

 

"I believe I have changed my mind," he told her. "Wait for me abed. Naked, if you please, I'll be a deal too drunk to fumble at your clothing. Keep your mouth shut and your thighs open and the two of us should get on splendidly." He gave her a leer, hoping for a taste of fear, but all she gave him was revulsion. No one fears a dwarf. Even Lord Tywin had not been afraid, though Tyrion had held a crossbow in his hands. "Do you moan when you are being fucked?" he asked the bedwarmer.

 

"If it please m'lord."

 

"It might please m'lord to strangle you. That's how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me." This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted.

 

 

 

I see Tyrion’s relationship to the Starks as a whole, not so much on individual terms. Despite the Starks hating the Lannisters, all of them but Arya (and I think that's coming) has a positive relationship with him. All of these have to be going somewhere.

Jon made friends with Tyrion and still holds a good opinion of him.

 

Bran received the special saddle from Tyrion and it was Tyrion who taught Bran that he could live a good life, though it would be harder and different.

 

Sansa receives genuine kindness from Tyrion, though it’s sporadic. She acknowledges that being married to him isn’t the worst thing.

 

Catelyn comes to realize that she was wrong about Tyrion. In desperation, she decides to trust him to return Arya and Sansa with Jaime’s release. Will Stoneheart feel she owes Tyrion a debt?

 

As for Arya, if she doesn’t get a significant positive connection to Tyrion, I think this hints that she will somehow be isolated from the rest of her family somehow. But I think it’s likely that Arya will end up Dany’s and Tyrion’s arc and will come back to Westeros with them.

 

 

 

Some excellent analysis here, Lollygag, particularly the two-sided Lannisters and their two-sided projections, and Tyrion's relationship with the Starks and how that indicates a strong possibility Arya might be drawn into his and Dany's current arc.  Enjoyed this!