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Enuma Elish

Dragons and one lion

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"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors.  What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros.  He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of an accent.  No doubt that was the reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen.  "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.  And you.  A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

"Snarling?  An amiable fellow like me?" Tyrion was almost flattered.  And no doubt that is just what he intends.  Every fool loves to hear that he's important.  "Perhaps it was Penny you saw.  We're almost of a size."

"No, my friend."

(page 436, A Dance With Dragons)

So Tyrion is not a Targaryen because he is clearly identified as a snarling creature amidst the dragons.  The Targaryens being the dragons.  A lion snarling amidst the dragons.   It looks to me like a bunch of Targaryens (the dragons) gagging up on one Lannister (the lion).

The Dragons

  • Old Dragons - Brynden Rivers and Aemon Targaryen
  • Young Dragons - Daenerys Targaryen and Aegon Blackfyre Targaryen
  • True Dragons - Aemon Targaryen, Daenerys Targaryen, Brynden Rivers, and Aegon Blackfyre Targaryen.  Look at it this way.  If Brynden Rivers is considered a Targaryen then it only makes sense for Aegon Blackfyre to be considered a Targaryen too.
  • False Dragon - Jon Snow.  Aegon Blackfyre cannot be a False Dragon if he is also a True Dragon.  Those two are mutually exclusive.
  • Bright Dragons - It can mean hair color but I believe it means the ones true to fire.  This would be Daenerys, Aemon, and Aegon.  
  • Dark Dragon - Brynden Rivers

Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.  A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.  From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

The Lies

  • Stannis claiming to be Azor Ahai.  Daenerys woke dragons from stone and thus proved she is Azor Ahai.  
  • Aegon Blackfyre claiming to be Prince Aegon Targaryen.  A cloth dragon is still a dragon.  Just not a specific dragon.  
  • Jon Snow born in the Tower of Joy and will be put forth as a false Targaryen.  The selection of words matter here.  Why was "beast" chosen instead of "dragon?"  Because this creature is not a dragon.  Shadow is a lie.  This creature is not a fire-breathing dragon.  Fire is light.  

Mother of Dragons, Bride of Fire

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.  A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.  A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

The Fires

  • The memory of their first ride was with her when she led him out into the darkness, for the Dothraki believed that all things of importance in a man's life must be done beneath the open sky.  She told herself that there were powers stronger than hatred, and spells older and truer than any the maegi had learned in Asshai.  The night was black and moonless, but overhead a million stars burned bright.  She took that for an omen.  Drogo is the first of the three lovers.  He was killed by Mirri Maaz Duur.
  • A corpse doesn't  have shining eyes.  They don't smile.  Unless they are wights.  Victarion is a wight created by fire spell.  He was cured ( or cursed) by Moquorro.  
  • The blue flower is a Stark.  I believe this is Jon Snow, though there is a slim chance it's Craster's son if he is related to the Starks.  The age is not right though.  I believe this is referring to Jon.  Mellissandre will put forth the lie that Jon is a Targaryen.  Stone is being used here to mean a Stark.  Like the stone chains (being a Stark) holding the winged wolf firmly grounded.  

The fires are the acts of miracle and procreation.  It is a wedding and an offering.  The first offering involved Drogo, Mirri, and the Stallion.  The second will be Victarion, Moquorro, and his boat.  This for death and it may be needed to bring Aemon back to life.  His preserved body is on its way to Slaver's Bay.  The third offering will be Jon, Mellissandre, and Ghost.  This is to love for the love of life.   Their burning will end winter.  Let's examine the pattern.  Drogo, Victarion, and Jon are basically all comatose,  I do believe Victarion will end up comatose and so will Jon from his injuries.  Mel will revive Jon Snow with magic but he won't be completely alive.  At least not as a human.  Moquorro used his magic to send Vic into a walking dead state in order to keep him animated long enough to get him to Meereen.  Mirri put Drogo into a vegetable state to keep him alive and make him suffer for the wrongs he did to her village.  All three are given to the flames as an act of mercy.  

Aemon will come back to life.  Aemon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Brynden Rivers, Aegon Blackfyre, and Jon Snow will be together for a time at the wall.  All of these dragons will have a reason to want Jaime dead.  Aemon, because Jaime betrayed Aerys.  Daenerys, for the same reason.  Aegon because he believed Jaime killed his mom and sister.  Brynden Rivers because Jaime is a Targaryen enemy.  Jon, because Jaime crippled his little brother.  Tyrion loves Jaime.  I think the little man will attempt to fight the dragons to protect his beloved brother.  Who, in truth, deserved whatever punishment the dragons want to do to him.  

 

 

 

Edited by Enuma Elish

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Dragons can't snarl?

Look at the quote. He's talking strictly about dragons: old, young, true, false, bright, dark … "and you." No mention of lions. Yes, he then goes on to say Tyrion is "a small man", but if that is meant to imply that he cannot also be a dragon, then none of the old, young, true, false, etc. dragons can be any of the names you mentioned, because they were also men, and women.

 

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I've always enjoyed reading interpretations of the elusive descriptions in the OP quotes.  Still, I'm not sure I can go full in on being singled out in a list of Targs as proof of Tyrion not being a Targ.   Among the most anticipated revelations from AWOIAF was the Cersei & Jamie versus Tyrion are/is a Targ ideas.   I thought it was revelation any way.    Aerys and Joanna seem to have been connected by proximity to Tyrion's potential while pretty much excluding the twins' question of paternity.  Of course, lots of people interpret the text differently and even seem to be able to effectively pull apart the statements.  It's just easier for me to come to the conclusion above.     I'm also curious why Jon and Aegon, if really sons of Rhaegar, couldn't both be true dragons.   I think that's the 1st time I've even seen Jon listed as the mummer's dragon.  Hrm.    

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Old dragons - Bloodraven, Shiera Seastar (shadowbinder Quaithe), Varys, Illyrio.

Young dragons - Dany, Jon, Rhaego, fAegon.

True dragons - Dany (100% Targaryen), Jon (50% Targaryen, 50% Stark), Rhaego (50% Targaryen, 50% Dothraki).

False dragons - those dragons that are not Targaryens, most of all - fAegon.

Bright dragons and dark dragons could have several interpretations. For example, Targaryens are Red dragons, thus they are bright dragons, while Blackfyres are a black dragons, thus they are dark dragons. Or the opposite - Targaryens are black/dark dragons, while fAegon, Varys and Illyrio are bright dragons, because they could be descendants of Aerion Brightflame's bastard-children, that he fathered, while he was in exile in Lys.

20 hours ago, Enuma Elish said:

Jon Snow born in the Tower of Joy and will be put forth as a false Targaryen.  The selection of words matter here.  Why was "beast" chosen instead of "dragon?"  Because this creature is not a dragon.  Shadow is a lie.  This creature is not a fire-breathing dragon.  Fire is light. 

Or he was described as a winged beast, because he is a mix of two families, so he is half-direwolf and half-dragon. Winged wolf binded to earth with stone chains, from Jojen Reed's dream, could be Jon Snow, not Bran Stark. Also "breathing shadow fire" and "smoking tower" could mean living a false life, smoke screen is a cover story, created by Ned Stark, that Jon is suposedly his bastard-son, while actually he is son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, and he was born at the Tower of Joy (it's a smoking tower, but not because Ned destroyed it, but because it's a place, from where began Jon's false life as a Stark-bastard).

20 hours ago, Enuma Elish said:

The blue flower is a Stark.  I believe this is Jon Snow, though there is a slim chance it's Craster's son if he is related to the Starks.  The age is not right though.  I believe this is referring to Jon.  Mellissandre will put forth the lie that Jon is a Targaryen.  Stone is being used here to mean a Stark.  Like the stone chains (being a Stark) holding the winged wolf firmly grounded.  

Look at the other two sets of visions, the last one in each of them is about distant past - in daughter of death, it's a vision about Rhaegar's death, in slayer of lies, it's a vision about Jon's birth at the Tower of Joy. So in the set about bride of fire, the third one, about blue flower in ice, should also be about distant past, from the times of Robert's Rebellion. So this blue flower is Jon Snow growing up at Winterfell, as a bastard-son of Ned Stark. There's two clues in the way this vision was phrased, that support my theory, that it is Jon at Winterfell - "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness." - Jon growing up among Ned's other children. His place in the Starks' family is described as a chink in a wall of ice, because he was unwelcomed there (hated by Cat, detested by Sansa, etc.). He was like a flower, that was trying to survive, growing thru ice of their negative feeling for him. And sweetness in ASOIAF in many cases means lies, deceptions, falsehood. So in this case, it could mean, that Jon was growing up at Winterfell, and everyone around him thought, that he is Ned Stark's bastard. That sweetness, that filled the air, is a lie about who he really is.

20 hours ago, Enuma Elish said:

The fires are the acts of miracle and procreation.  It is a wedding and an offering.  The first offering involved Drogo, Mirri, and the Stallion.  The second will be Victarion, Moquorro, and his boat.  This for death and it may be needed to bring Aemon back to life.  His preserved body is on its way to Slaver's Bay.  The third offering will be Jon, Mellissandre, and Ghost.  This is to love for the love of life.  

First fire was "for life", and it gave life to Dany's dragons. Second fire will be "for death", thus it should bring death to someone Dany's, for example to her slave-children, that are infected with pale mare, and will die anyway, so she will burn them. But third fire is different, while first two were "for", the third one is "to" - "to love". So the third fire Dany will light TO LOVE HIM - Jon, who will be the living fire, and thus that way Dany will be bride of fire, i.e. bride of Jon, who is the last dragon. Dany is one of three heads of the dragon. Next she will be reunited with Rhaego (He is either in Asshai, and was kidnapped for his dragon blood, by Shiera Seastar/Quaithe, who helped Dany to deliver her baby. In that chapter in AGOT, she was whispering and smiling stars, and kings with eyes like jades, opals, tourmalines and amethysts - all those stones are either blue or green, like mismatched eyes of Shiera Seastar; and swords of pale fire, in hands of those kings was actually a glass candle in hands of Shiera Seastar, when she "teleported" as a shadow into Drogo's tent, while Dany was giving birth to Rhaego. Or Rhaego is in Vaes Dothrak, and he was kidnapped for his blood, by his Dothraki relatives, most likely by Khal Pono. That first treason for blood, is not death of Drogo, caused by Mirri Maz Duur, but Rhaego's kidnapping for his blood, either by his dragonblood relative, Shiera Seastar, or by his Dothraki relatives, because they wanted to protect the Stallion that will mount the world, from his mother, whom they thought, was an evil maegy, because of what her actions did to Drogo).

So first Dany will be reunited with her son, and thus he will be the second head of the dragon. And then Dany will finally go to Westeros, where she will meet Jon, who will become the third head of the dragon. The three of them is a parallel to Holy Trinity - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, only GRRM is using The Mother (Dany, first head, 100% Targaryen), The Son (Rhaego, second head, 50% Targaryen), and The Holy Ghost (Jon after rebirth of his soul, thru extended varging into Ghost, third head and thus the last dragon, 50% Targaryen). Dany is in charge, and first head, because she is a pureblooded Targaryen, while her two closest men (her son Rhaego, and her third husband Jon) are her subordinates.

Dany will ride Drogon, Rhaego - Rhaegel, Jon - Viseryon. Even those dragons' coloring is a hint about who will be their riders. Rhaegel is green and bronze, like green grass of Dothraki sea, and bronze like either bronze skin of Dothraki, or their bronze arakhs. Viseryon's coloring is cream/white, gold and bronze - snow, crown (because Jon is rightful King of 7K), and bronze of First Men (Jon's ancestors from his mother's side were First Men). Also, probably, Drogon is male, and Rhaegel and Viseryon are female dragons <- this will explain why Drogon is different from the other two, starting with his egg being bigger than the other two, him being more independant than his sisters, etc.

Even order in which dragon eggs were places on Drogo's funeral pyre, and order in which they hatched, are clues about who will become rider of which dragon, and in what order.

First hatched pale egg - Jon was born in 283, he's the oldest out of three dragonriders, but he will become dragonrider the last out of three of them, because Viseryon's egg was placed on funeral pyre the last. Also the placing of that egg - between Drogo's legs, is a clue, that Viseryon's rider will be Dany's third mount/husband. Then hatched bronze egg, and on funeral pyre it was also placed second (near Drogo's head, and Dany wrapped his braid around this egg. In some cultures long hair symbolise fertility and children. So the dragon, that hatched from this egg, will be mount of Drogo's son), so Rhaegel will get his dragonrider after Drogon. And Drogon's black egg was placed on funeral pyre first, under Drogo's left arm, but hatched the last, which means, that the dragon, that will hatch out of this egg, will be the closest to Dany (she placed his egg near her husbands heart, thus she will form a bond with this dragon). First placed on funeral pyre - first will get a rider.

First was killed Drogo - Dany smothered him with a pillow, nearly 24 hours prior his funeral. So Drogo's lifeforce, that was the weakest during ceremonial sacrifice, payed for life of Drogon. That's why Drogon hatched the last. Then was killed the stallion, whose body was placed on the bottom of funeral pyre. His life payed for the dragon, that hatched second. So the life of that stallion payed for life of a dragon, Rhaegel, whose dragonrider is the Stallion that will mount the world, Rhaego. And last died Mirri Maz Duur, she was killed by fire, so her lifeforce was the strongest. Thus the dragon, for whose life was payed with Mirri's lifeforce, hatched the first out of three - Viseryon.

21 hours ago, Enuma Elish said:

Aemon will come back to life.

Didn't they drowned his body in the sea?

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On 10/6/2018 at 11:57 AM, Enuma Elish said:

The Lies

  • Stannis claiming to be Azor Ahai.  Daenerys woke dragons from stone and thus proved she is Azor Ahai.  
  • Aegon Blackfyre claiming to be Prince Aegon Targaryen.  A cloth dragon is still a dragon.  Just not a specific dragon.  
  • Jon Snow born in the Tower of Joy and will be put forth as a false Targaryen.  The selection of words matter here.  Why was "beast" chosen instead of "dragon?"  Because this creature is not a dragon.  Shadow is a lie.  This creature is not a fire-breathing dragon.  Fire is light.

:agree:

 

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On 10/6/2018 at 10:57 AM, Enuma Elish said:

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors.  What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros.  He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of an accent.  No doubt that was the reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen.  "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.  And you.  A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

"Snarling?  An amiable fellow like me?" Tyrion was almost flattered.  And no doubt that is just what he intends.  Every fool loves to hear that he's important.  "Perhaps it was Penny you saw.  We're almost of a size."

"No, my friend."

(page 436, A Dance With Dragons)

So Tyrion is not a Targaryen because he is clearly identified as a snarling creature amidst the dragons.  The Targaryens being the dragons.  A lion snarling amidst the dragons.   It looks to me like a bunch of Targaryens (the dragons) gagging up on one Lannister (the lion).

 

I personally do not believe that Tyrion is a targ. But I concede this line by Moqorro can be interpreted in multiple ways. I think the operative words here are 'and you'. To me it implies that Moqorro sees tryion not as dragons.

 

On 10/6/2018 at 10:57 AM, Enuma Elish said:

  

Aemon will come back to life.  Aemon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Brynden Rivers, Aegon Blackfyre, and Jon Snow will be together for a time at the wall.  All of these dragons will have a reason to want Jaime dead.  Aemon, because Jaime betrayed Aerys.  Daenerys, for the same reason.  Aegon because he believed Jaime killed his mom and sister.  Brynden Rivers because Jaime is a Targaryen enemy.  Jon, because Jaime crippled his little brother.  Tyrion loves Jaime.  I think the little man will attempt to fight the dragons to protect his beloved brother.  Who, in truth, deserved whatever punishment the dragons want to do to him.  

I'm not sure what exactly would be achieved if Aemon does come back to life. And all of the Targs do have reasons to want Jaime dead, but I don't think Aemon or Brynden would have much of a vendetta against him. Dany and Jon probably have most reason to want him dead, but I think the Moqorro quote meant that Tyrion would be in th e middle of targ politics. And Jaime is probably still mad that Tyrion killed tywin. So I think the dynamics between the brothers may play out differently.

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On 10/6/2018 at 5:57 PM, Enuma Elish said:

[snip]

Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.  A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.  From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

The Lies

  • Stannis claiming to be Azor Ahai.  Daenerys woke dragons from stone and thus proved she is Azor Ahai.  
  • Aegon Blackfyre claiming to be Prince Aegon Targaryen.  A cloth dragon is still a dragon.  Just not a specific dragon.  
  • Jon Snow born in the Tower of Joy and will be put forth as a false Targaryen.  The selection of words matter here.  Why was "beast" chosen instead of "dragon?"  Because this creature is not a dragon.  Shadow is a lie.  This creature is not a fire-breathing dragon.  Fire is light.  

[snip]

 

 

 

I agree with you about sentences 1 (blue-eyed king) and 2 ( cloth dragon) of the Slayer of Lies triplet of the HotU referring to Stannis and Aegon. I also agree with you that sentence 3 (the mysterious stone beast) has something to do with Jon. However my path to get to this conclusion is a bit different:

The Stone Beast:

The stone beast part arguably is the hardest to decipher of the Slayer of Lies triplet. However there does exist a chapter in the books that fulfils the smoking tower/great stone beast/took wing/shadow fire sentence of the HotU prophecy literally. Word for word. This chapter is the last Bran chapter of CoK (The Burning of Winterfell). In this chapter gargoyles - which are literal stone beasts - take wing (fall down) from the burning First Keep (with it's broken tower) while fire is in the air at night (shadows).

I can't of course claim that this event is the only possible explanation of this sentence of the HotU prophecy. In the end only GRRM knows.

What I can do is point out that the Burning of Winterfell is an event in the books that both literally, word for word, fulfills this sentence of the HotU prophey and is of sufficient importance to the story as a whole that it would also thematically make sense if it had found it's place into Dany's HotU vision.

The Details:

(1) The literal fulfillment of the prophecy

To summarize and recall: The Burning of Winterfell happens in the very last chapter of CoK (underscoring its importance). Bran, Rickon, Jojen, Meera, Osha and Hodor are hiding down in the crypts while Summer roves outside the castle and Bran watches through Summer's eyes as Winterfell burns. Later Bran & Co emerge from the crypts and explore the burnt First Keep. 

From a smoking tower

Bran & Co emerge from the crypts and find: "The First Keep had not been used in many hundreds of years, but now it was more of a shell then ever. The floors had burned inside it ... Yet behind the broken tower still stood, no more burned than before. Jojen Reed was coughing from the smoke."

A great stone beast took wing

"They stood in the shadow of the First Keep, or what remained of it. One whole side of the building had torn loose and fallen away. Stone and shattered gargoyles lay strewn across the yard."

Breathing shadow fire

During the night Summer sees the burning take place from outside the castle. "The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame."

The breathing of fire is clearly spelled out. The shadow part is the nighttime (the roaring flame must be casting enormous shadows).

Curiously this chapter contains another mention of flame and shadow later on. And what a scene it is:

Bran & Co are still in the crypts and it is dark. Bran has just returned from his warging and witnessed the burning on Winterfell through Summer. Osha lights a fire so they can see: "A long pale flame awoke, stretching upwards like a girl on her toes. ... Bran had to squint as the pitch egan to burn, filling the world with orange glare. ... When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well."

(2) The metaphorical meaning of the scene

After the literal meaning (of the falling garygoyle) GRRM hammers home the metaphorical meaning (Bran falling):

"Stone and shattered gargoyles lay strewn across the yard. They fell just where I did, Bran thought as he saw them."

And GRRM is not done but uses the word gargoyle again in the next sentence, underscoring its importance.

"Some of the gargoyles had broken into so many pieces it made him wonder how he was alive at all."

GRRM finds this scene important enough to explicitly remind us of it, books later. Here is Theon in The Turncloak chapter in ADWD: 

"The entrance to the crypts was in the oldest section of the castle, near the foot of the First Keep, which had sat unused for hundreds of years. Ramsay had put it to the torch when he sacked Winterfell, and much of what had not burned had collapsed. Only a shell remained, one side open to the elements and filling up with snow. Rubble was strewn all about it: great chunks of shattered masonry, burned beams, broken gargoyles.

Important enough to explicitly reference one specific gargoyle yet again. The next sentence:

"The falling snow had covered almost all of it, but part of one gargoyle still poked above the drift, its grotesque face snarling sightless at the sky."

This gargolye is different from the others insofar as it is still partly intact and poking its face out of the snow, snarling at the sky. And in case that wasn't enough GRRM adds the next sentence:

"This is where they found Bran when he fell."

In other words GRRM all but explicitly identifies Bran with this one gargoyle.

(3) What I suspect is the the meaning of this scene in connection with the HotU:

The above things are clearly spelled out in the books.  If all these pieces of text that fit the prophecy so well and GRRM's twice explicitly making the link to Bran are just coincidence than that's quite a big coincidence. That does not 100% prove that this scene is the stone beast part of the HotU vision of course (only a confirmation by GRRM could do that) but short of that it is pretty conclusive in my opinion.

That said the meaning of the scene in connection with the HotU (beyond Bran's fall) is speculation. We just don't have enough text ev.

I do firmly believe the scene has a meaning beyond Bran's fall though. And though we don't have proof that that's the case we do have some clues. Here is my reasoning:

- The stone beast sentence is part of the Slayer of Lies triplet.

We have reason to suspect sentence 1 (Stannis) and 2 (likely Aegon) will probably lead to those two characters being exposed as frauds (in some sense) sooner or later. That together with the title of the triplet 'Slayer of Lies' leads to the conclusion that the third sentence (stone beast) also leads to some untruth being exposed.

Also we can reasonably suspect it will be an untruth of major importance for the story. Otherwise why include it?

Summer sees a winged snake breathing fire above Winterfell in this very scene. In other words: a dragon. That would point to a Targaryen connection.

The gargoyle (and Bran) fall right next to the entrance to the crypts of Winterfell, as GRRM feels necessary to repeatedly point out in the text ev above. This leads me to assume the crypts are important in the revelation of the untruth.

In the Theon 'The Turncloak' scene referenced above Theon notices that the First Keep fills with snow and that the gargoyle is staring out of the snow. This one is tentative and maybe coincidence. Or maybe not. We tend to perk up when we hear snow in ASOIAF :P

We have a better one in the Burning of Winterfell scene through Bran's POV also referenced above: When Osha lights that torch and Bran sees the shadows of the Stark statues move as if the dead where coming to life which statue's shadow does GRRM feel he should mention first?

I suppose you can guess it: Lyanna's.

Here is Bran, watching as Osha lights the torch: "Bran had to squint as the pitch began to burn, filling the world with orange glare. ... When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well. Lyanna and  ..."

This seems to point to Lyanna or her tomb being important in the revelation of the major untruth this sentence of the Slayer of Lies triplet means to uncover. At the very least Lyanna is.

These hints taken together let me suspect the major untruth this part of the triplet means is the lie about Jon's birth. It seems like Bran is referenced in the stone beast riddle because he will be an instrumental part in the unovering of Jon Snow's real identity as a Targaryen. And the Crypts of Winterfell and particularly Lyanna's tomb that both figure so prominently in the Burning of Winterfell/Stone Beast sence may well play a part in uncovering Ned's lie about Jon also. 

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3 hours ago, Amris said:

I agree with you about sentences 1 (blue-eyed king) and 2 ( cloth dragon) of the Slayer of Lies triplet of the HotU referring to Stannis and Aegon. I also agree with you that sentence 3 (the mysterious stone beast) has something to do with Jon. However my path to get to this conclusion is a bit different:

FYI - another option to consider if you've not come across it.

 

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4 hours ago, Amris said:

I agree with you about sentences 1 (blue-eyed king) and 2 ( cloth dragon) of the Slayer of Lies triplet of the HotU referring to Stannis and Aegon. I also agree with you that sentence 3 (the mysterious stone beast) has something to do with Jon. However my path to get to this conclusion is a bit different:

The Stone Beast:

 

Snip snip

It's a good theory, but one thing doesn't make sense - the timeframe. If you will look at all nine visions, then you'll see, that in each trinity, first vision is about recent past, second is about future, and the third one is about distant past. So that vision about stone beast is from the time of Robet's Rebellion, after Rhaegar's death.

First visions (recent past) - Dany's wedding with Drogo, Viserys' death, Stannis proclaiming himself new Azor Ahai. Second visions (future) - grown up Rhaego, fAegon proclaiming himself lost Targaryen prince, dead man on a ship. Third visions (distant past) - Rhaegar's death, Jon's birth at the Tower of Joy, Jon growing up at Winterfell as fake bastard-son of Ned Stark.

Though what you wrote about burning of Winterfell, could be clues about Jon's identity, and him being that stone beast from Dany's vision. He was described in that vision as stone beast, because gargoyles are stone beasts, also they are chimeras, i.e. - mixes of several different animals. Like, for example, they have bat's or dragon's wings, goat's or ram's horns, body of a lion or a dog. Jon, as a son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, is also a chimera - half-Valyrian/half-dragon and half First Men/half-direwolf, or winged firebreathing wolf ^_^ That winged snake, flying away from burning Winterfell, could be a hint, that the stone beast from smoking tower went to Winterfell (Jon after his birth was brought by Ned to his castle, where he was growing up among hostility (in chink on wall of ice) of Ned's other family members, under cover of lies (smoke screen) that he is Ned's bastard (that's why that blue flower was filling the air with sweetness, which in ASOIAF often means lies or deception).)

Also I think, that Shiera Seastar is a shadowbinder Quaithe, and the three-eyed crow. She helped Dany to deliver her baby; she helped Bran to awake from his coma; she brought Bran to Winterfell's crypts, in one of his dreams, and revealed to him, that Ned is dead; she's able to "teleport" her spirit thru usage of glass candle, and can spy after other people; she has appeared to Dany three times - on board of Balerion ship, in pyramid in Meereen, and in Dothraki sea; also she was trying to communicate with Jon thru his dreams - in Jon's first chapter in ADWD, she was the moon that chased him, and he run fom her towards the cave of night where the sun has hidden <- in this case cave of night is the cave of Weirwood, in which Bloodraven (the sun, white lion (because he is an albino), Lion of the Night, Night's King) was hiding, and Shiera is Bloodraven's "wife", the Moon to his Sun and Stars (from Dothraki legends), The Maiden-made-of-light (from Yu Ti's legends), and the Corpse Queen (from Night's Watch's legends); she's also a shadow in a woman's form in Aeron's second vision from TWOW (pale fire in her hands is a glass candle. Same as in Dany's feavered dreams in AGOT, Shiera was seen by her as kings with swords of pale fire in their hands - it's a glass candle); and this could be also Shiera spying after Bran thru usage of glass candle - "A long pale flame awoke, stretching upwards like a girl on her toes. ... Bran had to squint as the pitch egan to burn, filling the world with orange glare. ... When the shadows moved, it looked for an instant as if the dead were rising as well." And that winged snake, that was flying away from burning Winterfell, could have been how Summer saw Shiera's spirit escaping from Winterfell's crypts. Could be that she was staying there for a long time, all that time, between Bran's awakening from coma, and Bran going to far North. Those crypts will be important in uncovering a lie about Jon being Ned Stark's bastard, because Dawn sword of Daynes is (probably) hidden in those crypts. If Dawn can be wielded only by someone with blood of Daynes, and Jon will be able to use this sword, then it will be a prove, that he is a Targaryen, because Queen Dyanna Dayne, mother of Aegon V Targaryen, is one of Jon's ancestors, so he is 1/8 Dayne thru his father, Rhaegar.

I have a theory, that Bloodraven and Shiera are GRRM's parallel to wizard Merlin and his lover, water fairy, Nimue, and Jon is a parallel to King Arthur and to Aragorn from The Lord of the rings. In some versions of Arthurian legends, Arthur didn't draw Excalibur from the stone, instead it was gifter to him by fairy Nimue, that was called the Lady of the Lake. Seems that in ASOIAF there are two Ladys of the Lake - Shiera Seastar and Ashara Dayne (who possibly has been living for the last 15 years under name Jyana Reed, wife of Howland Reed, and mother of Meera and Jojen Reed, and Edric Ned Dayne). Ashara will give Dawn to Jon, and Shiera will give Dark Sister sword to Dany (when Bloodraven has disappeared beyond The Wall, most likely, Dark Sister was with him. So when Shiera, same as Merlin's Nimue, has lured him into a cave, and with magic binded him to a tree, she took away his sword, and kept it since then, to give it later to it's rightful owner - Daenerys Targaryen (it seems that Dark Sister was forged specifically for a woman. So could be, that Daenys the Dreamer saw in one of her prophetic vision, that there will be a female dragonlord in the future, that will fight against the Others during Second Long Night. So she ordered to forge Valyrian sword for that female-warrior).

So the crypts are important, because Dawn is hidden there, and it's a prove of Jon's Targaryen ancestry. And that's why there's so many gargoyle scenes - it's a hint, connection between stone beast vision, Lyanna's tomb (where Dawn is hidden), and Jon's parentage.

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

[snip]

First visions (recent past) - Dany's wedding with Drogo, Viserys' death, Stannis proclaiming himself new Azor Ahai. Second visions (future) - grown up Rhaego, fAegon proclaiming himself lost Targaryen prince, dead man on a ship. Third visions (distant past) - Rhaegar's death, Jon's birth at the Tower of Joy, Jon growing up at Winterfell as fake bastard-son of Ned Stark.

[snip]

You are making my point.

Jon's false identity - Ned's lie, which dates back to Jon's birth - is the secret that's going to be exposed here through the stone beast line. That's what I wrote in the post you cite. So your distant past would be a fit if that really were a necessary criteria.

(Although it isn't IMO. I don't buy in your distant past theory: triplet I sentence 3: Yes Rhaegar's death was some years back, triplet 2 sentence 3: Jon's birth and Ned's lie date back as long. But Triplet 3 sentence 3: nope. Your blue flower theory is a stretch. At best. Winterfell isn't a wall of ice. Neither is Catelyn's antipathy towards Jon. 

We have a literal wall of ice in the story and Jon is at that place and Bran in a vision sees him lying deathly still in an ice cell there. You have to jump a lot of hoops to ignore what's right before your eyes and instead go for a 'he is growing up among hostility - that's a chink in wall of ice' interpretation. Aside from that: Jon grew up in Winterfell until the very beginning of the story and Catelyn's antipathy was no less right into book 1. So if her antipathy  was the 'wall of ice' it would be recent, not distant past. There goes your distant past theory.

What's more I have never seen GRRM go for melodramatics and describing a stepmother's antipathy towards her stepson as a 'wall of ice' when otherwise Jon obviously grows up as an accepted member of the family, loved by his brothers EDIT: and sisters* (let's not forget the sisters :P) and his 'father' Ned seems an over the top dramatic - in other words: melodramatic overstatement.

I read your Shiera Seastar claim once and found it interesting and somewhat possible even though unlikely. But please don't repeat it all the time unless you find real evidence. It gets repetitive.

Edited by Amris

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On 10/7/2018 at 9:50 AM, Megorova said:

Old dragons - Bloodraven, Shiera Seastar (shadowbinder Quaithe), Varys, Illyrio.

Young dragons - Dany, Jon, Rhaego, fAegon.

True dragons - Dany (100% Targaryen), Jon (50% Targaryen, 50% Stark), Rhaego (50% Targaryen, 50% Dothraki).

False dragons - those dragons that are not Targaryens, most of all - fAegon.

Bright dragons and dark dragons could have several interpretations. For example, Targaryens are Red dragons, thus they are bright dragons, while Blackfyres are a black dragons, thus they are dark dragons. Or the opposite - Targaryens are black/dark dragons, while fAegon, Varys and Illyrio are bright dragons, because they could be descendants of Aerion Brightflame's bastard-children, that he fathered, while he was in exile in Lys.

Or he was described as a winged beast, because he is a mix of two families, so he is half-direwolf and half-dragon. Winged wolf binded to earth with stone chains, from Jojen Reed's dream, could be Jon Snow, not Bran Stark. Also "breathing shadow fire" and "smoking tower" could mean living a false life, smoke screen is a cover story, created by Ned Stark, that Jon is suposedly his bastard-son, while actually he is son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, and he was born at the Tower of Joy (it's a smoking tower, but not because Ned destroyed it, but because it's a place, from where began Jon's false life as a Stark-bastard).

Look at the other two sets of visions, the last one in each of them is about distant past - in daughter of death, it's a vision about Rhaegar's death, in slayer of lies, it's a vision about Jon's birth at the Tower of Joy. So in the set about bride of fire, the third one, about blue flower in ice, should also be about distant past, from the times of Robert's Rebellion. So this blue flower is Jon Snow growing up at Winterfell, as a bastard-son of Ned Stark. There's two clues in the way this vision was phrased, that support my theory, that it is Jon at Winterfell - "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness." - Jon growing up among Ned's other children. His place in the Starks' family is described as a chink in a wall of ice, because he was unwelcomed there (hated by Cat, detested by Sansa, etc.). He was like a flower, that was trying to survive, growing thru ice of their negative feeling for him. And sweetness in ASOIAF in many cases means lies, deceptions, falsehood. So in this case, it could mean, that Jon was growing up at Winterfell, and everyone around him thought, that he is Ned Stark's bastard. That sweetness, that filled the air, is a lie about who he really is.

First fire was "for life", and it gave life to Dany's dragons. Second fire will be "for death", thus it should bring death to someone Dany's, for example to her slave-children, that are infected with pale mare, and will die anyway, so she will burn them. But third fire is different, while first two were "for", the third one is "to" - "to love". So the third fire Dany will light TO LOVE HIM - Jon, who will be the living fire, and thus that way Dany will be bride of fire, i.e. bride of Jon, who is the last dragon. Dany is one of three heads of the dragon. Next she will be reunited with Rhaego (He is either in Asshai, and was kidnapped for his dragon blood, by Shiera Seastar/Quaithe, who helped Dany to deliver her baby. In that chapter in AGOT, she was whispering and smiling stars, and kings with eyes like jades, opals, tourmalines and amethysts - all those stones are either blue or green, like mismatched eyes of Shiera Seastar; and swords of pale fire, in hands of those kings was actually a glass candle in hands of Shiera Seastar, when she "teleported" as a shadow into Drogo's tent, while Dany was giving birth to Rhaego. Or Rhaego is in Vaes Dothrak, and he was kidnapped for his blood, by his Dothraki relatives, most likely by Khal Pono. That first treason for blood, is not death of Drogo, caused by Mirri Maz Duur, but Rhaego's kidnapping for his blood, either by his dragonblood relative, Shiera Seastar, or by his Dothraki relatives, because they wanted to protect the Stallion that will mount the world, from his mother, whom they thought, was an evil maegy, because of what her actions did to Drogo).

So first Dany will be reunited with her son, and thus he will be the second head of the dragon. And then Dany will finally go to Westeros, where she will meet Jon, who will become the third head of the dragon. The three of them is a parallel to Holy Trinity - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, only GRRM is using The Mother (Dany, first head, 100% Targaryen), The Son (Rhaego, second head, 50% Targaryen), and The Holy Ghost (Jon after rebirth of his soul, thru extended varging into Ghost, third head and thus the last dragon, 50% Targaryen). Dany is in charge, and first head, because she is a pureblooded Targaryen, while her two closest men (her son Rhaego, and her third husband Jon) are her subordinates.

Dany will ride Drogon, Rhaego - Rhaegel, Jon - Viseryon. Even those dragons' coloring is a hint about who will be their riders. Rhaegel is green and bronze, like green grass of Dothraki sea, and bronze like either bronze skin of Dothraki, or their bronze arakhs. Viseryon's coloring is cream/white, gold and bronze - snow, crown (because Jon is rightful King of 7K), and bronze of First Men (Jon's ancestors from his mother's side were First Men). Also, probably, Drogon is male, and Rhaegel and Viseryon are female dragons <- this will explain why Drogon is different from the other two, starting with his egg being bigger than the other two, him being more independant than his sisters, etc.

Even order in which dragon eggs were places on Drogo's funeral pyre, and order in which they hatched, are clues about who will become rider of which dragon, and in what order.

First hatched pale egg - Jon was born in 283, he's the oldest out of three dragonriders, but he will become dragonrider the last out of three of them, because Viseryon's egg was placed on funeral pyre the last. Also the placing of that egg - between Drogo's legs, is a clue, that Viseryon's rider will be Dany's third mount/husband. Then hatched bronze egg, and on funeral pyre it was also placed second (near Drogo's head, and Dany wrapped his braid around this egg. In some cultures long hair symbolise fertility and children. So the dragon, that hatched from this egg, will be mount of Drogo's son), so Rhaegel will get his dragonrider after Drogon. And Drogon's black egg was placed on funeral pyre first, under Drogo's left arm, but hatched the last, which means, that the dragon, that will hatch out of this egg, will be the closest to Dany (she placed his egg near her husbands heart, thus she will form a bond with this dragon). First placed on funeral pyre - first will get a rider.

First was killed Drogo - Dany smothered him with a pillow, nearly 24 hours prior his funeral. So Drogo's lifeforce, that was the weakest during ceremonial sacrifice, payed for life of Drogon. That's why Drogon hatched the last. Then was killed the stallion, whose body was placed on the bottom of funeral pyre. His life payed for the dragon, that hatched second. So the life of that stallion payed for life of a dragon, Rhaegel, whose dragonrider is the Stallion that will mount the world, Rhaego. And last died Mirri Maz Duur, she was killed by fire, so her lifeforce was the strongest. Thus the dragon, for whose life was payed with Mirri's lifeforce, hatched the first out of three - Viseryon.

Didn't they drowned his body in the sea?

He's preserved in a barrel of wine.  He's in alcohol.

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1 hour ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

He's preserved in a barrel of wine.  He's in alcohol.

Eew :wacko: That's really disgusting. They should have burried him in the sea. Though even if his body is still around, and wasn't eaten by fishes, it doesn't mean, that he is going to be revived (and continue to be in the story, as one of old and true dragons), or that they took his body to Slaver's Bay. Didn't they were supposed to give him back to the Citadel? Why would Sam let people from Cinnamon Wind to take Aemon's body with them back to Essos? Or was something about this said in TWOW spoilers?

2 hours ago, Amris said:

Your blue flower theory is a stretch. At best. Winterfell isn't a wall of ice. Neither is Catelyn's antipathy towards Jon. 

Though this option is not totally impossible. Even though you think, that it's too overdramatic.

2 hours ago, Amris said:

I read your Shiera Seastar claim once and found it interesting and somewhat possible even though unlikely. But please don't repeat it all the time unless you find real evidence. It gets repetitive.

I'm just posting it here and there from time to time, to keep it easy to find later, when the books will confirm it (or not ^_^).

So you think, that those whispering and smiling stars in Dany's dream in AGOT, is not an evidence, that Quaithe was there with Dany in Drogo's tent, even though in ADWD Dany has identified whispering stars as Quaithe? And you don't think, that eye color of those Valyrian kings from Dany's dream (jade, opal, amethyst, tourmaline - blue and green gems), are a clue, that point out towards Shiera Seastar, the woman, that had one blue and one green eye?

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The big shadow is his on a dragon, GRRM is fixated on the shadows cast beneath dragon's wings. Aegon will ride Rhaegal and Dany will war him on Drogon, and Tyrion will remain neutral on Viserion. Tyrion in the middle. But not a passive middle, he'll be playing both sides for everything he can get, snarling, and when the dust settles he will be the only dragon rider left, so king.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

(jade, opal, amethyst, tourmaline - blue and green gems)

They're all gems with purple forms.

Edited by chrisdaw

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On 10/6/2018 at 8:57 AM, Enuma Elish said:

"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors.  What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros.  He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of an accent.  No doubt that was the reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen.  "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark.  And you.  A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

"Snarling?  An amiable fellow like me?" Tyrion was almost flattered.  And no doubt that is just what he intends.  Every fool loves to hear that he's important.  "Perhaps it was Penny you saw.  We're almost of a size."

"No, my friend."

(page 436, A Dance With Dragons)

So Tyrion is not a Targaryen because he is clearly identified as a snarling creature amidst the dragons.  The Targaryens being the dragons.  A lion snarling amidst the dragons.   It looks to me like a bunch of Targaryens (the dragons) gagging up on one Lannister (the lion).

The Dragons

  • Old Dragons - Brynden Rivers and Aemon Targaryen
  • Young Dragons - Daenerys Targaryen and Aegon Blackfyre Targaryen
  • True Dragons - Aemon Targaryen, Daenerys Targaryen, Brynden Rivers, and Aegon Blackfyre Targaryen.  Look at it this way.  If Brynden Rivers is considered a Targaryen then it only makes sense for Aegon Blackfyre to be considered a Targaryen too.
  • False Dragon - Jon Snow.  Aegon Blackfyre cannot be a False Dragon if he is also a True Dragon.  Those two are mutually exclusive.
  • Bright Dragons - It can mean hair color but I believe it means the ones true to fire.  This would be Daenerys, Aemon, and Aegon.  
  • Dark Dragon - Brynden Rivers

Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.  A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.  From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

The Lies

  • Stannis claiming to be Azor Ahai.  Daenerys woke dragons from stone and thus proved she is Azor Ahai.  
  • Aegon Blackfyre claiming to be Prince Aegon Targaryen.  A cloth dragon is still a dragon.  Just not a specific dragon.  
  • Jon Snow born in the Tower of Joy and will be put forth as a false Targaryen.  The selection of words matter here.  Why was "beast" chosen instead of "dragon?"  Because this creature is not a dragon.  Shadow is a lie.  This creature is not a fire-breathing dragon.  Fire is light.  

Mother of Dragons, Bride of Fire

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.  A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.  A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

The Fires

  • The memory of their first ride was with her when she led him out into the darkness, for the Dothraki believed that all things of importance in a man's life must be done beneath the open sky.  She told herself that there were powers stronger than hatred, and spells older and truer than any the maegi had learned in Asshai.  The night was black and moonless, but overhead a million stars burned bright.  She took that for an omen.  Drogo is the first of the three lovers.  He was killed by Mirri Maaz Duur.
  • A corpse doesn't  have shining eyes.  They don't smile.  Unless they are wights.  Victarion is a wight created by fire spell.  He was cured ( or cursed) by Moquorro.  
  • The blue flower is a Stark.  I believe this is Jon Snow, though there is a slim chance it's Craster's son if he is related to the Starks.  The age is not right though.  I believe this is referring to Jon.  Mellissandre will put forth the lie that Jon is a Targaryen.  Stone is being used here to mean a Stark.  Like the stone chains (being a Stark) holding the winged wolf firmly grounded.  

The fires are the acts of miracle and procreation.  It is a wedding and an offering.  The first offering involved Drogo, Mirri, and the Stallion.  The second will be Victarion, Moquorro, and his boat.  This for death and it may be needed to bring Aemon back to life.  His preserved body is on its way to Slaver's Bay.  The third offering will be Jon, Mellissandre, and Ghost.  This is to love for the love of life.   Their burning will end winter.  Let's examine the pattern.  Drogo, Victarion, and Jon are basically all comatose,  I do believe Victarion will end up comatose and so will Jon from his injuries.  Mel will revive Jon Snow with magic but he won't be completely alive.  At least not as a human.  Moquorro used his magic to send Vic into a walking dead state in order to keep him animated long enough to get him to Meereen.  Mirri put Drogo into a vegetable state to keep him alive and make him suffer for the wrongs he did to her village.  All three are given to the flames as an act of mercy.  

Aemon will come back to life.  Aemon, Daenerys, Tyrion, Brynden Rivers, Aegon Blackfyre, and Jon Snow will be together for a time at the wall.  All of these dragons will have a reason to want Jaime dead.  Aemon, because Jaime betrayed Aerys.  Daenerys, for the same reason.  Aegon because he believed Jaime killed his mom and sister.  Brynden Rivers because Jaime is a Targaryen enemy.  Jon, because Jaime crippled his little brother.  Tyrion loves Jaime.  I think the little man will attempt to fight the dragons to protect his beloved brother.  Who, in truth, deserved whatever punishment the dragons want to do to him.  

 

Too many assumptions. 

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

[snip]

I'm just posting it here and there from time to time, to keep it easy to find later, when the books will confirm it (or not ^_^).

So you think, that those whispering and smiling stars in Dany's dream in AGOT, is not an evidence, that Quaithe was there with Dany in Drogo's tent, even though in ADWD Dany has identified whispering stars as Quaithe? And you don't think, that eye color of those Valyrian kings from Dany's dream (jade, opal, amethyst, tourmaline - blue and green gems), are a clue, that point out towards Shiera Seastar, the woman, that had one blue and one green eye?

Even though I find your Shiera idea not overly likely I find it appealing and would be pleased if something like that happened in the books. Anyway I would really like to know who Quaithe is and what motivates her.

As to the smiling stars:

I can't rule out anything but too me it seems likely Quaithe (whoever she may be) is on occasion using a glass candle to communicate with Dany. Like when Dany has that Quaithe vision on the pyramid.

Yes, Quaithe may be influencing Dany's fever dream during the Rhaego miscarriage too - but I don't see enough text ev to be sure about that. There may be other influences. Or none. For instance I think it possible that the dragon eggs once fertilized influenced Dany's subconscious too. Or maybe the fever dream is actually a Targaryen vision that Dany has, like some of her ancestors are reported to have had too. Independent of Quaithe. The text is just too vague.

 Even if some of Dany's dreams may be influenced through a glass candle I don't think we can necessarily assume all of her dreams are.

The jewel-eyes:

To me the jewel-eyed ghosts in the fever-dream seem to be inspired by the legendary rulers of the Empire of the Dawn rather than by Valyrian kings.

I suspect the reason for the gem-eyed ghosts inclusion in Dany's fever-dream is to tie the Targaryens in general and Dany in particular back to the legend of the Amethyst Empress and her predecessors, among them the Opal Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor and the Jade Emperor.

And through the Amethyst Empress back to the Blood Betrayal and the first Long Night.

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The purple eyed ghosts in Dany's dream are her forbearers who had second lifed dragons and so their souls (or fiery heart in Mel's terms) had powered a dragon's flame. But their souls eventually burned out, as they do, so they're ghosts with white (exhausted) lightbringers and faded raiments.

They are pushing Dany forward, urging her on, because she is on the verge of death and about to second life a dragon too, following in their footsteps. That's what the red door represents. And she's so close, through the door, about to become the last dragon as Rhaegar believed was his fate, BUT, she wakes, she lives, her soul returns to her body.

But she was there, she has always meant to be there, the dragons know it and so does Quaithe. That's what Quaithe means when she tells Dany to remember who she is, what she was made to be, that the dragons remember her, that she is the blood of the dragon. It is almost literal.

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12 hours ago, Amris said:

I suspect the reason for the gem-eyed ghosts inclusion in Dany's fever-dream is to tie the Targaryens in general and Dany in particular back to the legend of the Amethyst Empress and her predecessors, among them the Opal Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor and the Jade Emperor.

And through the Amethyst Empress back to the Blood Betrayal and the first Long Night.

I didn't noticed before, that there were Emperors like that in Planetos' history :blush:

Though the main reason, why I thought, that those kings were actully one person, instead of numerous, like Emperors, or Dany's Valyrian ancestors, or previous incarnations of Azor Ahai, etc., is because it was specifically writen there, that they shouted as one. Also what happened immediately after that, looked like Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, and when Shiera Seastar was shouting to her something like push push, this is what happened:

Quote

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. (<- This part of her dream, is what the baby experienced.)

A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. (<- this is what Dany felt, when the baby came out) And Daenerys Targaryen flew. (<- this is again from Rhaego's POV.)

" . . . wake the dragon . . . "

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

" . . . the dragon . . . "

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own. (<- this all above is from Rhaego's POV.)

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars. (<- Dany's POV.)

It's as if though thru usage of some magic, Dany was experiencing alternately what her own body felt, and what felt the baby. Though it seems, that I'm the only one who thinks so.

12 hours ago, Amris said:

Yes, Quaithe may be influencing Dany's fever dream during the Rhaego miscarriage too - but I don't see enough text ev to be sure about that. There may be other influences. Or none. For instance I think it possible that the dragon eggs once fertilized influenced Dany's subconscious too. Or maybe the fever dream is actually a Targaryen vision that Dany has, like some of her ancestors are reported to have had too. Independent of Quaithe. The text is just too vague.

Oh, Ok, I just thought, that those clues are concrete uncontroversial evidence of Quaithe's presence there, and didn't get why other readers don't see there what I saw.

Also, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, she did carried him to a term. When she found out about her pregnancy, on that day she turned 14 years old, and a few months after Rhaego's birth, prior her arrival to Qarth, she turned 15. So it's likely, that it wasn't a premature birth or miscarriage, she gave birth to her baby on time, after ~9 months or 40 weeks of pregnancy. So if the baby is dead, then it was a stillbirth, not a miscarriage.

Edited by Megorova

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23 minutes ago, Megorova said:

I didn't noticed before, that there were Emperors like that in Planetos' history :blush:

[snip]

It's as if though thru usage of some magic, Dany was experiencing alternately what her own body felt, and what felt the baby. Though it seems, that I'm the only one who thinks so.

[snip]

Also, when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, she did carried him to a term.

[snip]

(1) The Great Empire of the Dawn and its gemstone emperors are in GRRM's background history book the World of Ice and Fire on page 301 in the history of Yi Ti. In case you don't have that book you can also find it here: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Great_Empire_of_the_Dawn

One of the interesting things about it is that legends have it stem from a duality: the Lion of the Night and the Maiden-made-of-light. They had a son: the God on Earth who was the first Gemstone Emperor. And it also ended with a duality: the Blood Betrayal in which the last ruler, the Amethyst Empress, was being cast down by her envious brother who then ascended the throne as the Bloodstone Emperor. This event is said to have ushered in the first Long Night and destroyed the Great Empire of the Dawn.

The duality in this story much reminds me of the duality of Ice and Fire in the current story. And in the current story of course another Long Night seems to be threatening. So that when what seem to be ghosts of the Gemstone Emperors from before the first Long Night appear in Dany's dream and spur her on that is extremely intriguing to me.

It begs the question if Dany is related to them and what her role in the story will be and if she is maybe an incarnation of either the Amethyst Empress or the Bloodstone Emperor. And if the first ruler of the Great Empire of the Dawn was a synthesis between the duality - the son of Night and Light - then if that has any relevance to Jon being a synthesis of the current duality - Fire and Ice.

(2) Your interpretation that Dany was alternating between her own point of view and the baby's fits the wording of the text. You may be right. I don't know if you are but you may be.

If you are that would lead to a very curious question: how was Dany doing this? Was she kind of warging her son?

(3) Yes, Dany carried to term. I know. Strictly speaking I misused the word miscarriage. I used it anyway because the baby was dead.

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