Did Moat Cailin Have a Full-Time Garrison Pre-Conquest?

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

This thread regards the north prior to Aegons conquest when the starks were kings, Not after conquest when they were wardens of the north.

So as the title says, did moat cailin have a full time garrison prior to Aegons conquest like the bloody gate or was it only during war time? The neck proved a harsh barrier for the southern kingdoms so I doubt the north saw nearly as much low level warfare accept from ironborn and wilding raids and occasional wars over the three sisters.

Please leave answers down below, sorry if the question sounds very obvious but it was something that I was wondering

[Back door hodor]

It would appear not, using the instructions Ned gives as an indication, I suspect the reason for this being that the North and Riverlands were technically allied given Ned and Cats Marriage. This of course is in contrast to the bloody gate, but that garrison seems to have more ceremonial importance in my opinion, thus why it exists in peacetime.

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

48 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

It would appear not, using the instructions Ned gives as an indication, I suspect the reason for this being that the North and Riverlands were technically allied given Ned and Cats Marriage. This of course is in contrast to the bloody gate, but that garrison seems to have more ceremonial importance in my opinion, thus why it exists in peacetime.

I meant before Aegons conquest, sorry if I was clear in the thread, made it clearer now

[The hairy bear]

The impression I have is that by the time Aegon landed in Westeros, Moat Cailin was already abandoned. In AGOT, Catelyn notes that "the wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past". The Conquest was just 300 years ago.

I'd say that probably there wasn't a garrison, but the Starks had some small group of scouts stationed there to control the borders. If they watched the Southern border actively, they'd be able to spot any significant army approaching, and they'd have time to send ravens to White Harbor or Barrowton to send men to fortify the position.

[Faera]

The short answer is we don't know.

There isn't really enough mentioned about the history of Moat Cailin for us to ascertain whether it was at any point at the time of the Conquest garrisoned at all times. There is mention that one strategy suggested to Torrhen Stark was that he fall back to Moat Cailin and make a final stand there, which wouldn't have been terribly effective considering the Targaryens had dragons that could just fly overhead. Earlier mentions of it refer simply to it being a strategic stronghold that was once controlled by the crannogmen, which they would man with other northern allies prior to them being conquered by Rickard the Laughing Wolf; it was a united North that then repelled the Andals from Moat Cailin.

Bottom line is that we still don't know. However, given that during the reign of the Starks we know they were using Moat Cailin, which was utilised by the Marsh Kings and their crannogmen to repel any would-be invaders earlier than that, I would argue it is likely Moat Cailin was actively garrisoned during the years the North was an independent state. This probably all but ended when the Targaryens united the kingdoms, if not before. It depends on how frequently they needed to police the border. Ultimately, House Reed and their crannogmen do a fairly good job and keeping people out through guerrilla tactics and wars of attrition so it's probably been rare they had to get an entire posse into Moat Cailin.

The lack of security on the border seems to be a recent development, hundreds of years rather than the thousands the North were using Moat Cailin. Perhaps the Dance of the Dragons might have been the last time the Starks had to actively pad out security but I'm only speculating. It might not have been necessary since party factions between the Blacks and Greens probably would have only been limited to minor skirmishes.

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, •Brandon Ice Eyes said:

This thread regards the north prior to Aegons conquest when the starks were kings, Not after conquest when they were wardens of the north.

So as the title says, did moat cailin have a full time garrison prior to Aegons conquest like the bloody gate or was it only during war time? The neck proved a harsh barrier for the southern kingdoms so I doubt the north saw nearly as much low level warfare accept from ironborn and wilding raids and occasional wars over the three sisters.

Please leave answers down below, sorry if the question sounds very obvious but it was something that I was wondering

This probably a question for individuals who have scoured WOIAF. Perhaps more will be revealed in F & B vol. 1.

As it stands for me, I found an interesting bit of info, but I am not able to supply context because I have only browsed WOIAF.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals    It was the North and the North alone that was able to keep the Andals at bay, thanks to the impenetrable swamps of the Neck and the ancient keep of Moat Cailin. The number of Andal armies that were destroyed in the Neck cannot be easily reckoned, and so the Kings of Winter preserved their independent rule for many centuries to come./

Merely taking that burp at face value it would appear to me that Moat Cailin was put into place before the time of the First Men.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Coming of First Men    Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic. Some contest this, however: the First Men were already in Westeros when this occurred, and stemming the tide from the east would do little more than slow their progress./

In case you are unaware there is a  search site that you can use if you are so inclined.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

6 hours ago, •Brandon Ice Eyes said:

This thread regards the north prior to Aegons conquest when the starks were kings, Not after conquest when they were wardens of the north.

So as the title says, did moat cailin have a full time garrison prior to Aegons conquest like the bloody gate or was it only during war time? The neck proved a harsh barrier for the southern kingdoms so I doubt the north saw nearly as much low level warfare accept from ironborn and wilding raids and occasional wars over the three sisters.

Please leave answers down below, sorry if the question sounds very obvious but it was something that I was wondering

Probably. Ned said that 200 archers could keep any army at bay indefinitely. Supporting that number of people to defend an entire kingdom is easily worth the cost

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Probably. Ned sais that 200 archers could keep any army at bay indefinitely. Supporting that number of people to defend an entire kingdom is easily worth the cost

Ah, Good point ty

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

29 minutes ago, Faera said:

The short answer is we don't know.

There isn't really enough mentioned about the history of Moat Cailin for us to ascertain whether it was at any point at the time of the Conquest garrisoned at all times. There is mention that one strategy suggested to Torrhen Stark was that he fall back to Moat Cailin and make a final stand there, which wouldn't have been terribly effective considering the Targaryens had dragons that could just fly overhead. Earlier mentions of it refer simply to it being a strategic stronghold that was once controlled by the crannogmen, which they would man with other northern allies prior to them being conquered by Rickard the Laughing Wolf; it was a united North that then repelled the Andals from Moat Cailin.

Bottom line is that we still don't know. However, given that during the reign of the Starks we know they were using Moat Cailin, which was utilised by the Marsh Kings and their crannogmen to repel any would-be invaders earlier than that, I would argue it is likely Moat Cailin was actively garrisoned during the years the North was an independent state. This probably all but ended when the Targaryens united the kingdoms, if not before. It depends on how frequently they needed to police the border. Ultimately, House Reed and their crannogmen do a fairly good job and keeping people out through guerrilla tactics and wars of attrition so it's probably been rare they had to get an entire posse into Moat Cailin.

The lack of security on the border seems to be a recent development, hundreds of years rather than the thousands the North were using Moat Cailin. Perhaps the Dance of the Dragons might have been the last time the Starks had to actively pad out security but I'm only speculating. It might not have been necessary since party factions between the Blacks and Greens probably would have only been limited to minor skirmishes.

Good answer, Ty 

[Brandon Ice-Eyes]

23 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This probably a question for individuals who have scoured WOIAF. Perhaps more will be revealed in F & B vol. 1.

As it stands for me, I found an interesting bit of info, but I am not able to supply context because I have only browsed WOIAF.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals    It was the North and the North alone that was able to keep the Andals at bay, thanks to the impenetrable swamps of the Neck and the ancient keep of Moat Cailin. The number of Andal armies that were destroyed in the Neck cannot be easily reckoned, and so the Kings of Winter preserved their independent rule for many centuries to come./

Merely taking that burp at face value it would appear to me that Moat Cailin was put into place before the time of the First Men.

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Coming of First Men    Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic. Some contest this, however: the First Men were already in Westeros when this occurred, and stemming the tide from the east would do little more than slow their progress./

In case you are unaware there is a  search site that you can use if you are so inclined.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

 

 

Ah, ty for the link

[Back door hodor]

10 hours ago, •Brandon Ice Eyes said:

I meant before Aegons conquest, sorry if I was clear in the thread, made it clearer now

Yea def misunderstood, tbh as far as I know we dont have a definite answer on this but judging by both the state of the fortress when robs army encounters it and the fact that Torren(the king who knelt) and his army chose not to hold up there and instead marched farther south and engaged aegon at the trident so I'll stick with my answer and say no

[Darion Storm]

Considering that it fell into ruin so long ago, perhaps it predates the flooding of the Neck. Then afterwards it was so difficult to invade the North by the Neck it became redundant.

[Ellard Stark]

I just want to know who built it and why

[Bullrout]

MC was not garrisoned but Torrhen had something almost as good.  He had the bog people defending the pass.  Cheap because they live off the land.  Fried frog, stewed frog, frog casserole, stuffed frog, marinated frog, frog jerky, frog with noodles.  They were an easy keep and costed the Starks nothing.  The north doesn't have anything valuable enough to motivate a powerful house like the Lannisters to invade.  The bog people were enough to discourage the Freys and other river families from trespassing.  

[Legitimate_Bastard]

I don't think so. I think the Crannogmen/ House Reed had that on lockdown.

[Stormking902]

On 10/10/2018 at 4:47 PM, Ellard Stark said:

I just want to know who built it and why

It was built by the Starks thousands of years ago before the neck was flooded to keep foreign invaders out, originally there were a grand total of 20 towers built meaning it would be suicide to march an army through. After the flooding the Neck turned into marsh land and swallowed 17 of the 20 towers but 20 towers were no longer needed since the land itself is a natural barrier/defence. 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

1 minute ago, Stormking902 said:

It was built by the Starks thousands of years ago before the neck was flooded to keep foreign invaders out, originally there were a grand total of 20 towers built meaning it would be suicide to march an army through. After the flooding the Neck turned into marsh land and swallowed 17 of the 20 towers but 20 towers were no longer needed since the land itself is a natural barrier/defence. 

Do you have a source for that?

The legend is that the Neck became marshland before the First Men arrived, and therefore way before there were any Starks. Legends can be wrong of course, but I don't know of anywhere it says MC was built before the Neck existed.

Also, surely it would have been pretty useless before the approach was made narrow by the marshes?

[Rufus Snow]

40 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

It was built by the Starks thousands of years ago

No, the Starks captured it from the Marsh Kings:

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

After the defeat of the Boltons, the last of their Northern rivals, the greatest threats to the dominion of House Stark came by sea. The northern boundary of the Stark domains was protected by the Wall and the men of the Night's Watch, whilst to the south, the only way through the swamps of the Neck passed below the ruined towers and sinking walls of the great fortress called Moat Cailin. Even when the Marsh Kings held the Moat, their crannogmen stood staunch against any invaders from the south, allying with the Barrow Kings, Red Kings, and Kings of Winter as need be to turn back any southron lord who sought to attack the North. And once King Rickard Stark added the Neck to his domain, Moat Cailin proved even more imposing—a bulwark against the powers of the south. Few sought to push past it, and the histories say that none ever succeeded.

 

[direpupy]

33 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

It was built by the Starks thousands of years ago before the neck was flooded to keep foreign invaders out, originally there were a grand total of 20 towers built meaning it would be suicide to march an army through. After the flooding the Neck turned into marsh land and swallowed 17 of the 20 towers but 20 towers were no longer needed since the land itself is a natural barrier/defence. 

I can find reference for the 20 towers thing but not for the rest of what you are saying

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VIII

Just beyond, through the mists, she glimpsed the walls and towers of Moat Cailin … or what remained of them. Immense blocks of black basalt, each as large as a crofter's cottage, lay scattered and tumbled like a child's wooden blocks, half-sunk in the soft boggy soil. Nothing else remained of a curtain wall that had once stood as high as Winterfell's. The wooden keep was gone entirely, rotted away a thousand years past, with not so much as a timber to mark where it had stood. All that was left of the great stronghold of the First Men were three towers … three where there had once been twenty, if the taletellers could be believed.

The Starks never claim to have build it, instead it seems no one really knows who build it. Some claim the First Men but there are also tales that it existed before that since the greenseers of the children of the forest gathered there to stop the First Men. And lastly the Marsh Kings held it before the Starks

A Game of Thrones - Bran V

Bran heard talk of Moat Cailin, the ancient stronghold the First Men had built at the top of the Neck. 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Coming of First Men

Legend says that the great floods that broke the land bridge that is now the Broken Arm and made the Neck a swamp were the work of the greenseers, who gathered at Moat Cailin to work dark magic. 

The World of Ice and Fire - The North: The Kings of Winter

The northern boundary of the Stark domains was protected by the Wall and the men of the Night's Watch, whilst to the south, the only way through the swamps of the Neck passed below the ruined towers and sinking walls of the great fortress called Moat Cailin. Even when the Marsh Kings held the Moat, their crannogmen stood staunch against any invaders from the south, allying with the Barrow Kings, Red Kings, and Kings of Winter as need be to turn back any southron lord who sought to attack the North. And once King Rickard Stark added the Neck to his domain, Moat Cailin proved even more imposing—a bulwark against the powers of the south. Few sought to push past it, and the histories say that none ever succeeded.

 

[Stormking902]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Do you have a source for that?

The legend is that the Neck became marshland before the First Men arrived, and therefore way before there were any Starks. Legends can be wrong of course, but I don't know of anywhere it says MC was built before the Neck existed.

Also, surely it would have been pretty useless before the approach was made narrow by the marshes?

How can you build on Marshland with the level of technology available? The answer is you cannot build on Marshland, even today its a very hard task which involves a lot of high tech pumps and digging.