Who do you think is Mance’s father?

[Lady Barbrey]

10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Thanks AS

[Lady Barbrey]

4 hours ago, wia said:

If they took Mance out of guilt, wouldn't they take all kids of raiders they kill out of guilt then? Or all kids of their brothers that became orphans somewhere in the realm? - Doubtful. 

He was taken in because his father was in the NW. And the decision to take him would've been made by the Lord Commander (or at least by the commander of Eastwatch-by-the-Sea or the commander of Shadow Tower). Now, would a regular nobody ranger be allowed to keep his child on the wall? - I don't think so.

I take your point but it's hard to know how old he was when he's just designated as a child. Jon was only 14 or 15.  Mance might have been 12 to be designated a child and therefore close enough to anyone else in age.  Anyway, it's a possibility he was the son of a big wig, at any rate.

[wia]

5 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I take your point but it's hard to know how old he was when he's just designated as a child. Jon was only 14 or 15.  Mance might have been 12 to be designated a child and therefore close enough to anyone else in age.  Anyway, it's a possibility he was the son of a big wig, at any rate.

True. It's a matter of possibilities. We can't confidently assert any theory with the info that's available to us.
It's not impossible that Mance's father wasn't important by himself, but he was, say, Lord Commander's friend (like Grenn and Pyp). Or that the Lord Commander for some reason just took a pity on that child and his father is irrelevant. 

The Craster's parents story seems intentional to me. Why have his mother come to the wall and be chased away? What does it add to his story? - He didn't seem like he was bitter about NW rejecting him, quite the opposite. So I figure that this particular piece of information was meant to add to another character's story.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

20 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

His justification for being allowed to stay at Castle Black is was the son of a black brother; but surely that cannot be it given his very existence would be seen as a violation of the oaths every brother takes; so why keep him around, why wouldn’t there be more little snows running around Castle Black or at the very least hear stories of a situation like mance? 

Iffin' you don't want to read the long version I would speculate Mance's father was a wildling/free folk.

 

The elusive Mance Raydar is introduced in book one. Basically all I know at that point is Mance is King Beyond the Wall and that Mance poses some sort of threat. The NW and the Starks think that the wildlings/free folk are the problem. They are not yet aware of the wights and Others/WW.

Then I am given a bit of information through Osha of what is happening beyond the wall. Osha says Mance came from ST.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI    "Giants and worse than giants, Lordling. I tried to tell your brother when he asked his questions, him and your maester and that smiley boy Greyjoy. The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back … or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower.  He's never tasted winter. I was born up there, child, like my mother and her mother before her and her mother before her, born of the Free Folk. We remember." Osha stood, her chains rattling together. "I tried to tell your lordling brother./

In CoK I am still under the impression that Mance is an enemy of the NW.  Then HalfHand spills some Mance information. Mance is wildling born.

A Clash of Kings - Jon VII    They were friends as well as brothers, Jon realized, and now they are sworn foes. "Why did he desert?"   "For a wench, some say. For a crown, others would have it." Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. "He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that's true. But it was more than that. He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again."    "Was he a good ranger?"/

The premise of the opening post is that Mance was raised at CB. BUT was he? Halfhand's duty post was at ST and he knows Mance seemingly well. Of course there is no way to pin down dates or who was where when. Soooo, that leaves guesstimates.

Perhaps Mance was raised at CB and sent to ST to serve his watch.

Currently in the story Aemon is in his 100's. Aemon arrived when Bloodraven arrived. Qorgyle became LC sometime after LC BR disappeared. After Qorgyle died Mormont became LC.

According to Mance --- he traveled to WF with Qorgyle. According to Jon's memory Mance was young. Up above in the CoK quote Halfhand told Jon Mance was wilding born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword.

What is the guess on Mance's age? I'd say older than Eddard. Younger than Halfhand.

I like Mance threads for a number of reasons. Even on my first read I thought Mance is way to interested in Starks and WF. As to who Mance's father is, I would say a wilding/free folk. I did on numerous occasions try to break down the numbers and I got no where just like I got no where with how Eddard got his "bastard" home to WF with a wet nurse.

 

[Pontius Pilate]

Qhorin Halfhand knew the man well.  I would have to accept his opinion on this matter.

Quote

"She even claimed we were kin.  She told me a story..."

"...of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell.  So Stonesnake told me.  It happens I know the song.  Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from ranging.  He had passion for wildling music.  Aye, and for their women as well."

"You knew him well?"

"We all knew him." His voice was sad.

"They were friends as well as brothers, Jon realized, and now they are sworn foes.  "Why did he desert?"

"For a wench, some say.  For a crown, others would have it."  Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb.  "He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily that's true.  But it was more than that.  He loved the wild better than the Wall.  It was in his blood.  He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword.  When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again."

His parents were wildlings of no importance.  

[Curled Finger]

11 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Brynden Rivers, who else?

Perfect.

[Clegane'sPup]

Although I do not think BR is Mance's sire, in my mind it would be so cool if BR was Mance's poppa.

Better than that is that there might have been a Stark out ranging round that broke the celibacy vows that don't exist.

For fun and for free someone do a Tormund and spin me a tale on how Mance got that damn raven wing helmet.

I complain about martin being to wordy but Tormund could tell a good tale.

[Kandrax]

13 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I can’t tell when you’re being sarcastic or not most of the time. Like did you mean Aemon or were you merely making a joke?

I was making a joke out of Mance is Rheagar.

[Rufus Snow]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

What is the guess on Mance's age? I'd say older than Eddard. Younger than Halfhand.

 

My guess is younger than Eddard, as per my earlier post. When mance visits Winterfell as part of Qorgyle's party, Jon considers him to be the 'young' black brother.  A child's parents are the touchstone for 'old' in that child's mind. Hence, Mance must be younger than Eddard, and by some good margin, otherwise Jon would never have considered him a 'young' black brother. (Yes, Mance has some grey, but so does Littlefinger who lives a more pampered life and is still younger than Eddard.... people seem to go grey very young in Martinworld, I think he's compensating, myself )

Also Mance expects Eddard to think of him as 'young' as well, so no way is Mance older than Eddard.

Cool or not, for BR to be Mance's daddy, he'd have to unjack from the tree and do the shiggy-shiggy at the age of 95. Ain't happenin', no-how, no-way....

[Clegane'sPup]

42 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

Cool or not, for BR to be Mance's daddy, he'd have to unjack from the tree and do the shiggy-shiggy at the age of 95. Ain't happenin', no-how, no-way....

I do agree. BR in my opinion isn't Mance's pop, no how, no way.

Mance was at WF twice as I as I remember. Once when with Qorgyle and once when the grapevine whispered King Bob was coming to WF.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I     "Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath."    "I remember," said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes . . . "You swore not to tell."    "And kept my vow. That one, at least."/

A Storm of Swords - Jon I    Jon's eyes widened in disbelief. "That can't be so."    "It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode."    "But," Jon objected, "the Wall . . ."/

Mance went to WF with Qorgyle. Jon describes Mance as a young black brother. Second time Mance shows up at WF Mance is unconcerned that Eddard would recognize him.

Accordingly Eddard supposedly hasn't left WF to travel southward since Eddard returned home after Robert's Rebellion. Nie on 15 years. Eddard does know that the King Beyond the Wall is bothering the boundaries.

I gotta hang tight with the idea that Mance is older than Eddard.

How old is Eddard in the book Game of Thrones?

Qorgyle and his entourage visited WF after Robert's Rebellion.

I'm tossing out questions and ideas.

I'm still wondering whether Mance was reared at CB or ST.  Because the opening post by the original poster is a bait thread. Even bait threads can produce useful information.

[Rufus Snow]

3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

How old is Eddard in the book Game of Thrones?

According to Wiki (and it seems to match everything in books) our Ned was born 263AC (for ref 11 yrs after BR went AWOL), so mid thirties when Joff shortens him by a head. I really cannot see Jon thinking Mance is 'young' if Mance is even equal in age to his father. I think he has to be at least 5 yrs younger than Ned, so max age for me is around 30/32 when he brings the wildlings down to the wall. round same age as LF, a tad younger than Stannis....

Unfortunately, time at the Wall is FUBAR:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion III

Tyrion had heard a few of those droll names. "I'll wager the lads have a few names for him as well," he said. "Chip the ice off your eyes, my good lords. Ser Alliser Thorne should be mucking out your stables, not drilling your young warriors."

"The Watch has no shortage of stableboys," Lord Mormont grumbled. "That seems to be all they send us these days. Stableboys and sneak thieves and rapers. Ser Alliser is an anointed knight, one of the few to take the black since I have been Lord Commander. He fought bravely at King's Landing."

"On the wrong side," Ser Jaremy Rykker commented dryly. "I ought to know, I was there on the battlements beside him. Tywin Lannister gave us a splendid choice. Take the black, or see our heads on spikes before evenfall. No offense intended, Tyrion."

On the one hand Thorne and Rykker joined the NW after the Sack of KL whilst Mormont was LC, yet LC Qorgyle visited Winterfell some years later Impossible.

[wia]

21 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I do agree. BR in my opinion isn't Mance's pop, no how, no way.

Mance was at WF twice as I as I remember. Once when with Qorgyle and once when the grapevine whispered King Bob was coming to WF.

A Storm of Swords - Jon I     "Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath."    "I remember," said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes . . . "You swore not to tell."    "And kept my vow. That one, at least."/

A Storm of Swords - Jon I    Jon's eyes widened in disbelief. "That can't be so."    "It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he'd met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode."    "But," Jon objected, "the Wall . . ."/

Mance went to WF with Qorgyle. Jon describes Mance as a young black brother. Second time Mance shows up at WF Mance is unconcerned that Eddard would recognize him.

Accordingly Eddard supposedly hasn't left WF to travel southward since Eddard returned home after Robert's Rebellion. Nie on 15 years. Eddard does know that the King Beyond the Wall is bothering the boundaries.

I gotta hang tight with the idea that Mance is older than Eddard.

How old is Eddard in the book Game of Thrones?

Qorgyle and his entourage visited WF after Robert's Rebellion.

I'm tossing out questions and ideas.

I'm still wondering whether Mance was reared at CB or ST.  Because the opening post by the original poster is a bait thread. Even bait threads can produce useful information.

Ned was 35-36 in GOT.

Ned says that the last time he saw Cersei, Tommen was "sucking at the Lannister woman's teat" which he thinks was 5 years ago, but Cathelyn says 7. Tommen was born in 291.
Ned came to Bear Island in 293 for Jorah.
Ned would've probably left for the Greyjoy Rebellion in 298.
And Cat notes that it's been 5 years since the last saw Lysa, which would be in 293-294 so it's possible that Ned was with her. There was a tourney at King's Landing in 294 that Barristan won, so perhaps they were there.

[Clegane'sPup]

9 minutes ago, wia said:

Ned was 35-36 in GOT.

Ned says that the last time he saw Cersei, Tommen was "sucking at the Lannister woman's teat" which he thinks was 5 years ago, but Cathelyn says 7. Tommen was born in 291.
Ned came to Bear Island in 293 for Jorah.
Ned would've probably left for the Greyjoy Rebellion in 298.
And Cat notes that it's been 5 years since the last saw Lysa, which would be in 293-294 so it's possible that Ned was with her. There was a tourney at King's Landing in 294 that Barristan won, so perhaps they were there.

This is what happens when people share information. I had completely forgotten about the Greyjoy Rebellion. Thanks.

While your information has relevance to Eddards age it does not address Mance.

54 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Accordingly Eddard supposedly hasn't left WF to travel southward since Eddard returned home after Robert's Rebellion. Nie on 15 years. Eddard does know that the King Beyond the Wall is bothering the boundaries.

I messed up. There was a Greyjoy rebellion during those 15 years ----  Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm's End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden's fantasy --- a mistake on my part.

35 minutes ago, Rufus Snow said:

On the one hand Thorne and Rykker joined the NW after the Sack of KL whilst Mormont was LC, yet LC Qorgyle visited Winterfell some years later Impossible.

I am confudicated and befuddled.

Back to Mance.

[Bowen Marsh]

2 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

 

My guess is younger than Eddard, as per my earlier post. When mance visits Winterfell as part of Qorgyle's party, Jon considers him to be the 'young' black brother.  A child's parents are the touchstone for 'old' in that child's mind. Hence, Mance must be younger than Eddard, and by some good margin, otherwise Jon would never have considered him a 'young' black brother. (Yes, Mance has some grey, but so does Littlefinger who lives a more pampered life and is still younger than Eddard.... people seem to go grey very young in Martinworld, I think he's compensating, myself )

Also Mance expects Eddard to think of him as 'young' as well, so no way is Mance older than Eddard.

Cool or not, for BR to be Mance's daddy, he'd have to unjack from the tree and do the shiggy-shiggy at the age of 95. Ain't happenin', no-how, no-way....

And Aemon doing the fathering is almost as unlikely.  A 70 year old Aemon would not be chosen to accompany rangers on the other side of the wall.

[Rufus Snow]

4 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I am confudicated and befuddled.

That is the correct response, because many timings within AGoT simply cannot be reconciled, not even internally consistent.

I found another one in my latest re-read: Renly says that Ilyn Payne hasn't been talkative these 'past 14 years', having had his tongue ripped out on the orders of a king who died 15 years ago, whilst Tywin was the Hand (what, 17 years ago???) It just speaks to the difficulty of trying to cross-reference events for firm datings....

[Rufus Snow]

2 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

And Aemon doing the fathering is almost as unlikely.  A 70 year old Aemon would not be chosen to accompany rangers on the other side of the wall.

Yeah, I think I'm leaning more towards Edd Tollett: "If anyone's going to father a King-Beyond-the-Wall who'll destroy the Watch, it's bound to be me...."

[Dorian Martell's son]

17 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Daeny's Mallister may know and a few others. Whether it's important, we shall see i guess. Though one could wonder why give Mance that back ground. Why not just make him the bastard of some tanner who joined the watch and then broke his vows? Why the tie to Wildlings and the Watch? Same as Craster. GRRM could have chose any other situation but the one he did. 

Acceptance to and connection to the wildlings. That's why

[wia]

5 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

This is what happens when people share information. I had completely forgotten about the Greyjoy Rebellion. Thanks.

While your information has relevance to Eddards age it does not address Mance.

That's because I was commenting on Eddard not lesving WF since RR. )))

Well Mance sure looks older than Ned with almost all his hair being gray and only Ned's beard having hints of grey and Ned is described to look older than his years still. That, of course, doesn't prove anything, people can go grey rather early in life. But then Jon's description of Mance as young back when Jon was 4-5 points to him being younger than Ned who was ~25ish. 25 isn't that young by ASOIAF standards and usually children din't tend to view people older than their parents as young.

I'd assume that Mance is somewhat older, but it's anyone's guess really.

[bemused]

On 10/6/2018 at 11:19 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

There is literally no way to know and it doesn't matter in any way to the story. So I will say Lord Commander Qorgyle. Because why not. 

I say LC Qorgyle, too. I had a thread about it a while back (now archived).

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/126820-mance-may-be-qorgyles-bastard/

I think there's lots to link him to Mance .

I guess Bloodraven would be my (distant) second choice ... but the deed would have to have been done well after he disappeared...I think he'd have been pretty feeble, if in fact, he wasn't already wed to the tree in the right time frame.

[bemused]

1 hour ago, wia said:

That, of course, doesn't prove anything, people can go grey rather early in life. But then Jon's description of Mance as young back when Jon was 4-5 points to him being younger than Ned who was ~25ish. 25 isn't that young by ASOIAF standards and usually children din't tend to view people older than their parents as young.

Yes, people go grey at different rates, and while Ned's life isn't soft, Mance's is even less so.

The bold text is where we can go wrong, I think. (I think the boys had to be 5 -6 in order to be playing where they were - 4 would be pretty young - but set that aside)

The main thing is, Jon is not a five or six year old calling Mance young at the time. Grown-up Jon is looking at Mance now, recognising him, remembering what he looked like then, and that he was a young ranger when he visited WF.

Ned himself would only have been be about 25 at the time. Jon is meeting Mance now only 10 -11 years later. I don't think Mance can be much younger than Ned ,at all.