How do you make a Truce Pact with Lannisters and Starks/Tully?

[honorable men]

Tyrion is heir to the Kingdom of the Westerlands with Sansa as his wife. Since the Lannisters sh!t gold, they should reimburse all the damages. ALL.

Kevan's youngest daughter will wed Rickon or Bran, heir to Winterfell. Lannisters should help retake the North from what remains of Ironborn and the Boltons.

Blackfish will wed a suitable Lannister bride. Oh and Riverrun will go back the Tullys: Edmure. I perfer the Blackfish but whatever.

Since Lancel decided to go all religious. The Darry lands should go to the bastard of Darry and be legitimized. Since neither Darry women can remarry and produce DARRY heirs.

And no more Lannister Land grabs: Rosby, hayford etc.

 

 

To ensure no more butt hurt feelings, all the kids that would've been born out of this marriage, should find a way to marry each other.

 

 

Also Roose & Ramsay will be executed and the their lands be giving to Jeyne Poole.

Massive Frey Trial Hearings will be held. Those responsible for the Red Wedding will be executed. Freys should be lucky that their castle isn't going to be revoked. Harrion Karstark will get Karhold. Sorry Alys.

 

 

Capiche?

[Euron III Greyjoy]

I'm not sure any amount of marriages could fix what has happened between them. If anything I think they just need to stay out of each others way for a few generations. 

[Gertrude]

Yeah, I don't think even the Lannisters have enough gold to pay for all the damages done to the land and people. Not sure how Tyrion is heir to the kingdom, but let's roll with it. (are you thinking Tyrion Targaryen?) I think his marriage to Sansa is enough of a blood tie to the Straks. Let the Stark heir marry who they wish. Bolton's are eradicated and lands given away, obviously. That house needs to go. Probably not to Jeyne, however. She needs to be taken care of, but lands as large as the Boltons need to have a strong leader to survive the upcoming winter. While she may grow into it, I don't see her being that soon and she is alone enough that she doesn't have anyone to trust and give good guidance. Assure her comfort and safety in another way.  I assume ridding the North of unwelcome Ironborn/Bolton men is a given. The North should decide what to do about the wildlings and the crown should back them. Perhaps give the Starks a permanent seat on the small council as they are the largest and most remote of the kingdoms and them breaking off is not really an option in this scenario. It can be filled with whomever they choose to represent them.

Good luck getting Blackfish to marry anyone. He didn't do it for his brother, he's not going to do it for a niece he doesn't know or a Lannister king. Let him do his own thing and Edmure takes over. Freys are tricky. Personally I think that the perpetrators should be tried and executed and their lands and titles should be stripped from the remaining family. You get into the question of 'should children be judged by fathers' actions'. In the case of the Red Wedding, I say yes. That is a grievous wrong, basically a war crime. But then you'd have to blame Tyrion for Tywin's part, yada yada. Then again, there is a good case to be made that by murdering Tywin, Tyrion has revoked any and all ties to his father. Edmure should get to decide Roslin's fate. He may forgive her as the mother of his child, or he may have her executed as a conspirator (which she was, however reluctantly)

I don't see Jaime or Cersei surviving the war, but Kevan's hands are not entirely clean, even if he's not entirely guilty either. Yes, gold reparations are a start. Not enough to cripple them as they have their own people to take care of, but enough that it slows them down. Forgiving the royal debt is a good start, as well as relief for the North and Riverlands. Minimize their power, shut them out of King's Landing. Forgiving the debt accomplishes this as well. I don't think any marriages into this family is advised. You don't want them to become too bitter and nurse a grudge, but it was Cersei and Jaime who ultimately caused the War of the Five Kings and House Lannister should not be rewarded for that. Perhaps a combined Lannister/Stark/Tully fleet that all contribute to but answers to none (maybe the crown or a joint council) to patrol the coasts and keep the Ironborn from raiding. It's not a marriage pact, but it is mutual cooperation and protection.

If any additional marriage pacts are made, I think that marrying Edmure's son (son, right?) to any of Tyrion/Sansa's future daughters would be the best move. The Starks are pretty removed from this, but Sansa would be on the throne and Rickon/Bran/Arya's nephew would become king. that's not an insignificant perk. Help for the North in surviving the winter would be helpful. And reinstating some sort of provision for manning the Wall, if it's still relevant, would also go over pretty well, I think.

Not sure why the Darry women can't produce Darry heirs - they don't have to take their husband's name. And in my scenario, the Darry/Frey women wouldn't have a home at the Twins anymore, so the Darry castle is a natural fit.

That only covers what we know as of right now. Dany and Aegon are gonna shake things up so much more and we don't know who is gonna side with whom and who else needs to be taken down a peg or who needs to be rewarded, etc. Or who is going to be alive. Interesting think to think about though.

 

[867-5309]

10 hours ago, honorable men said:

Tyrion is heir to the Kingdom of the Westerlands with Sansa as his wife. Since the Lannisters sh!t gold, they should reimburse all the damages. ALL.

Kevan's youngest daughter will wed Rickon or Bran, heir to Winterfell. Lannisters should help retake the North from what remains of Ironborn and the Boltons.

Blackfish will wed a suitable Lannister bride. Oh and Riverrun will go back the Tullys: Edmure. I perfer the Blackfish but whatever.

Since Lancel decided to go all religious. The Darry lands should go to the bastard of Darry and be legitimized. Since neither Darry women can remarry and produce DARRY heirs.

And no more Lannister Land grabs: Rosby, hayford etc.

 

 

To ensure no more butt hurt feelings, all the kids that would've been born out of this marriage, should find a way to marry each other.

 

 

Also Roose & Ramsay will be executed and the their lands be giving to Jeyne Poole.

Massive Frey Trial Hearings will be held. Those responsible for the Red Wedding will be executed. Freys should be lucky that their castle isn't going to be revoked. Harrion Karstark will get Karhold. Sorry Alys.

 

 

Capiche?

This is just awful.  I suppose because I don't support the Starks and want them to go the way of the dinosaurs.  The only Lannister that is guilty is Jaime.  Tywin was reacting to Catelyn kidnapping his son.  Cersei was reacting to Ned threatening to expose her to Robert.  The blame is on Jaime, first and foremost.  And Cersei is also guilty but less so than Jaime.  Jaime is the only asshole among the Lannisters.  The whole clan should not have to pay for his mess.  Sacrifice Jaime to the trees and be done with it.  

Ramsay is a nut case who should be executed for what he did to Hornwood.  But Roose?  What Roose did at the red wedding is legal.   He stopped a bloody rebellion and killed the outlaw Robb Stark.  He prevented the kingdom from breaking apart.  What the Starks wanted to do was illegal.  They were trying to break the kingdom apart.  They were no different from Balon.  There is no call to execute Roose and take his lands.  The STarks were at fault for trying to make their own king.

Frey trials?  Everything Walder Frey did is legal.  He was encouraged and given permission to do this by the crown.  House Frey did Westeros a solid by ending a bloody rebellion.  They kept the kingdom from breaking apart.  Just because it went badly for the Starks doesn't mean it was bad for the majority of the kingdom.  

 

[Ser Maverick]

This has been the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, 867-5309 said:

This is just awful.  I suppose because I don't support the Starks and want them to go the way of the dinosaurs.  The only Lannister that is guilty is Jaime.  Tywin was reacting to Catelyn kidnapping his son.  Cersei was reacting to Ned threatening to expose her to Robert.  The blame is on Jaime, first and foremost.  And Cersei is also guilty but less so than Jaime.  Jaime is the only asshole among the Lannisters.  The whole clan should not have to pay for his mess.  Sacrifice Jaime to the trees and be done with it.  

Ramsay is a nut case who should be executed for what he did to Hornwood.  But Roose?  What Roose did at the red wedding is legal.   He stopped a bloody rebellion and killed the outlaw Robb Stark.  He prevented the kingdom from breaking apart.  What the Starks wanted to do was illegal.  They were trying to break the kingdom apart.  They were no different from Balon.  There is no call to execute Roose and take his lands.  The STarks were at fault for trying to make their own king.

Frey trials?  Everything Walder Frey did is legal.  He was encouraged and given permission to do this by the crown.  House Frey did Westeros a solid by ending a bloody rebellion.  They kept the kingdom from breaking apart.  Just because it went badly for the Starks doesn't mean it was bad for the majority of the kingdom.  

 

It wasn’t legal for the Freys to break sacred hospitality. Now, nobody trusts them to not be slaughtered under their roof. As Merlin said to Uther Pendragon in Excalibur:

”You betrayed the Duke. You stole his wife. You took his castle. Now, only fools trust you; now, only a fool would.”

Also, it wasn’t Robb’s idea to become King in the North. All he wanted to do was get his father and sisters back. You can blame Greatjon Umber for bringing up the idea: “The King in the North!”

My point with the Freys is that it is bad for the kingdom because it raises paranoia that you can’t trust not to be slaughtered whilst visiting in your own home.

 

[norwaywolf123]

Even if you get a deal between Houses Stark and Lannister. How would you keep the peace between the houses fown the line? Over time the personal ties between Casterly Rock and Winterfell will decline as the generations go. Assuming that the kingdoms are not integrated into the same political map. The North has been relativly isolated from Southron events till recently.

[Pontius Pilate]

7 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

This is just awful.  I suppose because I don't support the Starks and want them to go the way of the dinosaurs.  The only Lannister that is guilty is Jaime.  Tywin was reacting to Catelyn kidnapping his son.  Cersei was reacting to Ned threatening to expose her to Robert.  The blame is on Jaime, first and foremost.  And Cersei is also guilty but less so than Jaime.  Jaime is the only asshole among the Lannisters.  The whole clan should not have to pay for his mess.  Sacrifice Jaime to the trees and be done with it.  

Ramsay is a nut case who should be executed for what he did to Hornwood.  But Roose?  What Roose did at the red wedding is legal.   He stopped a bloody rebellion and killed the outlaw Robb Stark.  He prevented the kingdom from breaking apart.  What the Starks wanted to do was illegal.  They were trying to break the kingdom apart.  They were no different from Balon.  There is no call to execute Roose and take his lands.  The STarks were at fault for trying to make their own king.

Frey trials?  Everything Walder Frey did is legal.  He was encouraged and given permission to do this by the crown.  House Frey did Westeros a solid by ending a bloody rebellion.  They kept the kingdom from breaking apart.  Just because it went badly for the Starks doesn't mean it was bad for the majority of the kingdom.  

 

 

5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

It wasn’t legal for the Freys to break sacred hospitality. Now, nobody trusts them to not be slaughtered under their roof. As Merlin said to Uther Pendragon in Excalibur:

”You betrayed the Duke. You stole his wife. You took his castle. Now, only fools trust you; now, only a fool would.”

Also, it wasn’t Robb’s idea to become King in the North. All he wanted to do was get his father and sisters back. You can blame Greatjon Umber for bringing up the idea: “The King in the North!”

My point with the Freys is that it is bad for the kingdom because it raises paranoia that you can’t trust not to be slaughtered whilst visiting in your own home.

 

Oh my.  A quote from one of my favorite films.  Angel Eyes Thanks. 

Those are different circumstances.  Pendragon betrayed Cornwall because he lusted after the duke's wife.  Walder Frey and Roose Bolton were ordered by their king to remove a threat to the realm.  It was legal.  It is a breakage of custom but not of the law.  

[Angel Eyes]

14 minutes ago, Centurion Piso said:

 

Oh my.  A quote from one of my favorite films.  Angel Eyes Thanks. 

Those are different circumstances.  Pendragon betrayed Cornwall because he lusted after the duke's wife.  Walder Frey and Roose Bolton were ordered by their king to remove a threat to the realm.  It was legal.  It is a breakage of custom but not of the law.  

The outcome is the same though; nobody trusts the Freys after the Red Wedding, nobody trusts Uther after he broke the truce and raped Cornwall's wife.

[honorable men]

Then let the streets run red

 

 

[Gertrude]

Yeah - the Red Wedding was a war crime. Kind of akin to bombing churches or hospitals - there are some lines that aren't crossed and there need to be consequences.

And I really take exception to the assertion that Jaime is the only guilty Lannister. Um, no? The entire situation is a consequence of the incest. If the Lannister twins aren't committing treason on the regular and popping out treason babies, then we have no story.

[Pontius Pilate]

28 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

The outcome is the same though; nobody trusts the Freys after the Red Wedding, nobody trusts Uther after he broke the truce and raped Cornwall's wife.

That's true.  Although the same thing can apply to making deals with the Starks.  They are now known breaker of oaths.  Walder's publicity machine needs to get moving to smear Robb's reputation.  What Jon did at the wall will grease those wheels and help the smear campaign.  Lady Stoneheart and Nymeria are not making the Stark name popular in the River lands.  

[Pontius Pilate]

Just now, Gertrude said:

Yeah - the Red Wedding was a war crime. Kind of akin to bombing churches or hospitals - there are some lines that aren't crossed and there need to be consequences.

And I really take exception to the assertion that Jaime is the only guilty Lannister. Um, no? The entire situation is a consequence of the incest. If the Lannister twins aren't committing treason on the regular and popping out treason babies, then we have no story.

Do you also believe the murder of Rhaegar's wife and children are war crimes of the same level of offense?  Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon were more innocent than the armsmen who died at the Red Wedding.  

[Gertrude]

That's a good question, actually. I think it's an atrocity, but does not rise to the level of the Red Wedding. Innocents die all the time in war, that's a fact. Losers and their families pay the price - it's an expected atrocity. Not pleasant to contemplate, but a practical matter that people can understand if not entirely approve.

I mean, Gregor took it too far and he should have had consequences, but again, it's an expected type of atrocity that people can mutter about, but really no one is completely shocked.

Another aspect of the murder of Elia and her children is that is was done in 'the heat of the battle'. A poor excuse, but (again), it's an expected excuse and rationale. A lie that people accept to paper over the rougher parts of reality. The Red Wedding was meticulously planned in cold-blood and a scandalous breach of a custom that society respects.

[wendelsnatch]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

The outcome is the same though; nobody trusts the Freys after the Red Wedding, nobody trusts Uther after he broke the truce and raped Cornwall's wife.

I would equate the Red Wedding/violating Guest Rights along the same vein as the murder of Thomas Beckett in so much as being condoned by the Crown.

[Gertrude]

The Becket murder is not a bad analogy, actually. The actual murderers were never legally charged or punished, but did atone through the church. Henry made a public atonement as well (not entirely unlike a Walk of Shame). I don't think the church in Westeros holds as much importance as it did in medieval Europe, so a purely religious punishment seems too light.

Basically, it was a crime that enraged the people because it broke a sacred trust. It wasn't that he was murdered, per se, but because of the circumstances surrounding it. The king had to eventually bow to that pressure and admit some level of wrongdoing or remorse. I don't think there is any ground to stand on saying that the Red Wedding was just a pragmatic solution to a rebellious lord - there is so much more to it than that and the people have to be assured that there are consequences for a breach of trust this large.

What that punishment is can be argued, but the fact that it is punishable cannot IMO.

[Artimicia]

Dual monarchy? Like Sparta?

[John Suburbs]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 11:50 PM, honorable men said:

Tyrion is heir to the Kingdom of the Westerlands with Sansa as his wife. Since the Lannisters sh!t gold, they should reimburse all the damages. ALL.

Kevan's youngest daughter will wed Rickon or Bran, heir to Winterfell. Lannisters should help retake the North from what remains of Ironborn and the Boltons.

Blackfish will wed a suitable Lannister bride. Oh and Riverrun will go back the Tullys: Edmure. I perfer the Blackfish but whatever.

Since Lancel decided to go all religious. The Darry lands should go to the bastard of Darry and be legitimized. Since neither Darry women can remarry and produce DARRY heirs.

And no more Lannister Land grabs: Rosby, hayford etc.

 

 

To ensure no more butt hurt feelings, all the kids that would've been born out of this marriage, should find a way to marry each other.

 

 

Also Roose & Ramsay will be executed and the their lands be giving to Jeyne Poole.

Massive Frey Trial Hearings will be held. Those responsible for the Red Wedding will be executed. Freys should be lucky that their castle isn't going to be revoked. Harrion Karstark will get Karhold. Sorry Alys.

 

 

Capiche?

By the time Tyrion wed Sansa, Tywin had all the pieces in place to destroy the Stark/Tully army, so there is no need to make a truce with them.

But assuming that your scenario excludes the Red Wedding, and Tyrion and Sansa become Lord and Lady of the Rock -- in which case we would also have to assume that both Tywin and Cersei, and probably Joffrey, die in some other manner, because Tyrion is very unlikely to inherit while they live -- then yes, he could very well sue for peace, but it would not require him to pay for damages. All he has to do is give Robb his kingdom. 

[Bernie Mac]

On 10/7/2018 at 4:48 PM, Angel Eyes said:

It wasn’t legal for the Freys to break sacred hospitality.

They broke a custom against a rebel of the kingdom. Not only is it not clear if there is an actual law for this but it is unlikely someone at war with the sovereignty of Westeros would be protected by their law. 

Quote

 

Now, nobody trusts them to not be slaughtered under their roof. As Merlin said to Uther Pendragon in Excalibur:

”You betrayed the Duke. You stole his wife. You took his castle. Now, only fools trust you; now, only a fool would.”

That is true. Anyone who has betrayed the Freys is not going to be willing to go to the Twins for fear of retribution. 

The Frey's prestige has taken a massive hit, this will affect future marriage alliances and likely see them suffer or pay out greater dowries. 

There will likely be retribution in some form from the North in the future, at least while the architects of the Wedding still live. There will likely never be a harmonious relationship between the two, though given that they already did not get along with the Crannogmen and that before Robb's betrothal their had not been one wedding alliance between Walder and any of his brood with a Northern house it remains how big an impact it will have. 

Quote

Also, it wasn’t Robb’s idea to become King in the North. All he wanted to do was get his father and sisters back. You can blame Greatjon Umber for bringing up the idea: “The King in the North!”

When one Lord suggested peace Robb said no, when one suggested Renly Robb said no when another suggested taking the fight to Harrenhal Robb again said no. When the crown was suggested for himself Robb said yes, no one forced him to become King. He's not some victim, only a month earlier Robb was threatening to hang the Greatjon so the suggestion he was forced is idiotic. 

Quote

My point with the Freys is that it is bad for the kingdom because it raises paranoia that you can’t trust not to be slaughtered whilst visiting in your own home.

How does a person visit their own home?

 

On 10/7/2018 at 4:50 AM, honorable men said:

Tyrion is heir to the Kingdom of the Westerlands with Sansa as his wife.

He's actually not. Cersei is the current ruler, Tyrion has been attainted. 

On 10/7/2018 at 4:50 AM, honorable men said:

 

Since the Lannisters sh!t gold, they should reimburse all the damages. ALL.

That is absurd. The North caused an awful lot of damage in the Riverlands while Robb caused damage in the West. The idea that House Lannister pick up the tab for everything crazy and not in line with the the time period the author is going for. 

At no point in the war of the Roses did either the York or Lancaster faction become liable for the damages done in the war. 

On 10/7/2018 at 4:50 AM, honorable men said:

Kevan's youngest daughter will wed Rickon or Bran, heir to Winterfell. Lannisters should help retake the North from what remains of Ironborn and the Boltons.

Why? What is in that for House Lannister, other than to appease the fans?

There is no reason for Kevan too send a hostage or for House Lannister to go out of their way to help the Starks regain their hold on the North. Politically it is in their best interests to do nothing and let the three continue to weaken each other in their quest for control. 

On 10/7/2018 at 4:50 AM, honorable men said:

Blackfish will wed a suitable Lannister bride.

Why? The Blackish is not interested in marriage, nothing has changed. From the Lannisters viewpoint the Tully's are pretty much done and the Blackfish both poor and old. He's a poor option for a Lannister bride. 

On 10/7/2018 at 4:50 AM, honorable men said:

 

Oh and Riverrun will go back the Tullys: Edmure. I perfer the Blackfish but whatever.

Again, why?

Outside of making the fans happy why would the Lannisters do this?

On 10/7/2018 at 4:50 AM, honorable men said:

Since Lancel decided to go all religious. The Darry lands should go to the bastard of Darry and be legitimized. Since neither Darry women can remarry and produce DARRY heirs.

They both can produce heirs and both, as daughters of a former Lord Darry, could rule. 

On 10/7/2018 at 4:50 AM, honorable men said:

And no more Lannister Land grabs: Rosby, hayford etc.

What you call a land grab was a regular occurance in the medieval age.  Heiress' married. 

On 10/7/2018 at 4:50 AM, honorable men said:

Also Roose & Ramsay will be executed and the their lands be giving to Jeyne Poole.

lol why? Even our own society has not gone that far, expecting people of the middle ages to compensate someone's suffering is just not going to happen. 

 

 

 

[Angel Eyes]

Just now, Bernie Mac said:

They broke a custom against a rebel of the kingdom. Not only is it not clear if there is an actual law for this but it is unlikely someone at war with the sovereignty of Westeros would be protected by their law. 

That is true. Anyone who has betrayed the Freys is not going to be willing to go to the Twins for fear of retribution. 

The Frey's prestige has taken a massive hit, this will affect future marriage alliances and likely see them suffer or pay out greater dowries. 

There will likely be retribution in some form from the North in the future, at least while the architects of the Wedding still live. There will likely never be a harmonious relationship between the two, though given that they already did not get along with the Crannogmen and that before Robb's betrothal their had not been one wedding alliance between Walder and any of his brood with a Northern house it remains how big an impact it will have. 

When one Lord suggested peace Robb said no, when one suggested Renly Robb said no when another suggested taking the fight to Harrenhal Robb again said no. When the crown was suggested for himself Robb said yes, no one forced him to become King. He's not some victim, only a month earlier Robb was threatening to hang the Greatjon so the suggestion he was forced is idiotic. 

How does a person visit their own home?

 

That was bad wording on my part for that. I meant that you can’t trust visiting anyone else out of fear that your host will kill you for whatever reason.