US Politics: Red Whine Hangover

[Bonnot OG]

Chaircat, if you don't like abortion's dont have one. If you're a guy, get a vasectomy and shut up.

Oh, and Kavanaugh forced abortions on two disabled women. Oh man, eugenics, which is what the Nazis believed in and perpetuated!  So how's that? Let me guess, you'll move the goalposts to support your horrible view eh? You oppressive joke. 

[Rippounet]

4 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

There wasn't one, that was the point. The social policies as described were totally different (indeed they appeared to be diametrically opposite). There was no relevant comparison.

Did you know that in Nazi Germany, providing an abortion to an Aryan woman was a capital offense? Just wondering...

18 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

There wasn't one, that was the point. The social policies as described were totally different (indeed they appeared to be diametrically opposite). There was no relevant comparison.

Aren't you forgetting legal discrimination against homosexuals a bit fast? You even copy-pasted that part...

Less rights for women, discrimination against sexual or ethnic minorities... That does sound familiar somehow. Gee, it's almost like these Nazis were conservative, y'know? If I were you I'm not sure I would necessarily argue that the social policies of American conservatives and those of German Nazis are "diametrically opposite," because, well, that's bullshit. The Nazis were socially conservative, everyone know that. In fact, American conservatives didn't find Nazism that outlandish in the thirties... Conversely, it has been said that Hitler was inspired by American ethno-nationalism. How weird is history, uh?

Anyway, my favorite part of this article was this:

 

Quote

 

I would argue that current trends reflect a significant divergence from the dictatorships of the 1930s.

The fascist movements of that time prided themselves on being overtly antidemocratic, and those that came to power in Italy and Germany boasted that their regimes were totalitarian. The most original revelation of the current wave of authoritarians is that the construction of overtly antidemocratic dictatorships aspiring to totalitarianism is unnecessary for holding power. Perhaps the most apt designation of this new authoritarianism is the insidious term “illiberal democracy.” Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in Turkey, Putin in Russia, Rodrigo Duterte in the Philippines, and Viktor Orbán in Hungary have all discovered that opposition parties can be left in existence and elections can be held in order to provide a fig leaf of democratic legitimacy, while in reality elections pose scant challenge to their power. Truly dangerous opposition leaders are neutralized or eliminated one way or another.

Total control of the press and other media is likewise unnecessary, since a flood of managed and fake news so pollutes the flow of information that facts and truth become irrelevant as shapers of public opinion. Once-independent judiciaries are gradually dismantled through selective purging and the appointment of politically reliable loyalists. Crony capitalism opens the way to a symbiosis of corruption and self-enrichment between political and business leaders. Xenophobic nationalism (and in many cases explicitly anti-immigrant white nationalism) as well as the prioritization of “law and order” over individual rights are also crucial to these regimes in mobilizing the popular support of their bases and stigmatizing their enemies.

 

That the neo-fascisms of today don't have to be that autocratic is a point I made on this forum like... ten days ago?
Oh, BTW, Browning seems to compare Trump with Erdogan and Putin here. Wow, how dopey is that guy, uh?

[Chaircat Meow]

2 minutes ago, Bonnot OG said:

Chaircat, if you don't like abortion's dont have one. If you're a guy, get a vasectomy and shut up.

Oh, and Kavanaugh forced abortions on two disabled women. So how's that? Let me guess, you'll move the goalposts to support your horrible view eh? You oppressive joke.

Ha, I'm going to change my 70% wrong 30% right title for this, thanks Bonnot OG.

 

[OldGimletEye]

13 minutes ago, Bonnot OG said:

I found that to be a sanctimonious pile of shit written by a daft liberal that has been living under a rock.

Lol what an ignorant fucking pud the writer is. "Usually, comparisons between Donald Trump’s America and Nazi Germany come from cranks and internet trolls" lol, what a pile of trash. 

Guess he missed how WWII veterans from Europe talked about the similarities 2 years ago when the campaigning was going on, or how Holocaust survivors said the same thing. 

I guess they are just internet cranks and trolls. 

And maybe the trolls / cranks the writer is whinig about know history better than they do? 

Needed an "authority" to show it to them. This country is fucked. Always looking for someone in a position of authority to help.

You have a point.

When even George Will says "see ya later Republican Party" because of Trump, then something has gone very wrong.

[Fragile Bird]

And the Red Whine goes on and on.

[Bonnot OG]

https://katu.com/news/local/driver-plows-through-protesters-in-downtown-portland

This is happening way too frequently. 

[The guy from the Vale]

@Chaircat Meow

Um, yeah, about the Nazis and abortion...

@Rippounet already alluded to it, but you're seriously ignorant about the Nazis. Yes, they forced abortion on Jewish, Roma, non-white and disabled women. But they also made it illegal for doctors to tell anybody they'd perform abortions (a law still on the books in Germany) and massively increased the punishment for getting an abortion while restricting access to contraception. The common thread in al of this was, of course, that the decisions about fertility and child-bearing were not individual, but made by the state. And contemporary American conservatives sure tend to see this very similarly, even if they slightly differ in how that principle would be applied.

[Serious Callers Only]

More terrorism. No doubt a presidential pardon is forthcoming.

Anyway why does america have presidential pardons? Presumably appeals to different courts should be more than enough. Ideally i'd say get rid of this failure to contain a malicious president.

My country has a single chamber of congress with multiple parties (no first past the post, proportional all the way) and a mechanism to create 'motions of no confidence with simple majority' which brings down governments for re-elections, which are westminster minister model. Saved us more than once from fucked up coligations when some fasc on a ministry did shitty thing XYZ that coligation party member not in their wheelhouse could not abide,  at the cost of paralysis. You should look into it america.

Next year, if we are not all dead, i'm gonna vote straight communist party eh.

[Darth Richard II]

12 minutes ago, Serious Callers Only said:

More terrorism. No doubt a presidential pardon is forthcoming.

Anyway why does america have presidential pardons? Presumably appeals to different courts should be more than enough. Ideally i'd say get rid of this failure to contain a malicious president.

My country has a single chamber of congress with multiple parties (no first past the post, proportional all the way) and a mechanism to create 'motions of no confidence with simple majority' which brings down governments for re-elections, which are westminster minister model. Saved us more than once from fucked up coligations when some fasc on a ministry did shitty thing XYZ that coligation party member not in their wheelhouse could not abide,  at the cost of paralysis. You should look into it america.

Next year, if we are not all dead, i'm gonna vote straight communist party eh.

Wait, you don't live in America?

[Serious Callers Only]

No, i'm a interested party in seeing how fascism is going to go down and ruin the world. Just because i'm not there doesn't mean i'm not going to be affected. In fact, i might very well be 'terminally' affected since i'm near nuke targets in case of war with russia.

[Morpheus]

Susan Collins thinks that there is some silver lining to Dr. Ford being humiliated, attacked by scum like Lindsey Graham, receiving death threats, having her testimony heard and dismissed with condescending fake sympathy by doddering old misogynists and the women who love them, and being told that she is telling the truth about being attacked but is too stupid to know who did it, she says this will help women to report attacks immediately. These are the worst people.

[Zorral]

My o my doesn't this look familiar:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/fotos-urnas-crime-eleitoral-como-denunciar-2

Quote

The Son Of "Brazil's Trump" Asked People To Share Photos Of Voting Machines To Fight Fraud. The Only Problem Is, That's Illegal.
Supporters are also posting photos of their guns next to voting machines, which is...also not great.

 

[Artimicia]

All of this speculation and such on America and it's political situation and I can tell you, living in America or perhaps being present in America right this second, it's not like fascism has poured over the borders and into everyones life.

First of all, the geography of America more or less precludes most totalitarian states because it's like half the size of Russia and even if you dig deep into one area or another usually the other places more or less aren't a part of it.

Secondly, the nature of the government itself was designed entirely and for no other reason than to preclude the creation of a totalitarian state, and so there are a number of factors there.

It really just boils down to there's probably no harder place to create a kind of totalitarian autocracy, that's not the problem in the America, the problem is all the random people everywhere who aren't part of the government, who aren't part of a collective, but are malicious anyway...

It's basically all the biker gangs and crazy New Mexico compounds or Waco that have been the real threat, and they've spiked in a kind of incredible way in the past 10 years, leading to all the overt unrest that people are seeing..

I think basically it boils down to America to Texas, Texas is a vast network and vast landscape of people who don't trust the government entirely and often live by their own rules, that's an advantage if the government is totalitarian, but it's also problematic because you are trusting these people who may or may not have values that you agree with, and yet they also are kind of anti-bad government, and it's been that way since they joined America give or take.

 

But that's a symptom of a problem and it really can't lead to the kinds of problems people are fretting about.

What people should be worrying about are the systems where that actually literally can, or even in fact, has partially already happened, such as

Australia

New Zealand

Ireland etc

More or less the countries that are the subject of the Game of Thrones, because while they do not have political systems like those found on the continent, they can definitely be shaped into ones like those found and that is more or less the most significant experience that's occurred in recent times in my opinion.

In fact, to me, Game of Thrones quite simply is the story of Ireland and Scotland, and of people who were once present in continental Europe but who then moved to New Zealand and Australia.

I must confess, my reference for Australia has been Crocodile Dundee and I mean I thought it was charming, but reading more on the internet it seems a lot of Australian people are very angry about their representations and perceptions and I suppose a series like Game of Thrones can make people understand why.. white culture in Europe was never limited to the continental strain which is altogether different and seeing the relative uniqueness of this newer type of culture probably is important for kind of international relations as a whole.

 

 

[Zorral]

And this is what is wrong with everything: some idiot bases his entire political knowledge on a truly stupid piece of HOLLYWOOD FICTION.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

38 minutes ago, Artimicia said:

All of this speculation and such on America and it's political situation and I can tell you, living in America or perhaps being present in America right this second, it's not like fascism has poured over the borders and into everyones life.

First of all, the geography of America more or less precludes most totalitarian states because it's like half the size of Russia and even if you dig deep into one area or another usually the other places more or less aren't a part of it.

Secondly, the nature of the government itself was designed entirely and for no other reason than to preclude the creation of a totalitarian state, and so there are a number of factors there.

It really just boils down to there's probably no harder place to create a kind of totalitarian autocracy, that's not the problem in the America, the problem is all the random people everywhere who aren't part of the government, who aren't part of a collective, but are malicious anyway...

It's basically all the biker gangs and crazy New Mexico compounds or Waco that have been the real threat, and they've spiked in a kind of incredible way in the past 10 years, leading to all the overt unrest that people are seeing..

I think basically it boils down to America to Texas, Texas is a vast network and vast landscape of people who don't trust the government entirely and often live by their own rules, that's an advantage if the government is totalitarian, but it's also problematic because you are trusting these people who may or may not have values that you agree with, and yet they also are kind of anti-bad government, and it's been that way since they joined America give or take.

 

But that's a symptom of a problem and it really can't lead to the kinds of problems people are fretting about.

What people should be worrying about are the systems where that actually literally can, or even in fact, has partially already happened, such as

Australia

New Zealand

Ireland etc

More or less the countries that are the subject of the Game of Thrones, because while they do not have political systems like those found on the continent, they can definitely be shaped into ones like those found and that is more or less the most significant experience that's occurred in recent times in my opinion.

In fact, to me, Game of Thrones quite simply is the story of Ireland and Scotland, and of people who were once present in continental Europe but who then moved to New Zealand and Australia.

I must confess, my reference for Australia has been Crocodile Dundee and I mean I thought it was charming, but reading more on the internet it seems a lot of Australian people are very angry about their representations and perceptions and I suppose a series like Game of Thrones can make people understand why.. white culture in Europe was never limited to the continental strain which is altogether different and seeing the relative uniqueness of this newer type of culture probably is important for kind of international relations as a whole.

 

 

Please tell me more about how New Zealand has descended into a totalitarian hellscape.

[Bonnot OG]

41 minutes ago, Artimicia said:

All of this speculation and such on America and it's political situation and I can tell you, living in America or perhaps being present in America right this second, it's not like fascism has poured over the borders and into everyones life.

First of all, the geography of America more or less precludes most totalitarian states because it's like half the size of Russia and even if you dig deep into one area or another usually the other places more or less aren't a part of it.

Secondly, the nature of the government itself was designed entirely and for no other reason than to preclude the creation of a totalitarian state, and so there are a number of factors there.

It really just boils down to there's probably no harder place to create a kind of totalitarian autocracy, that's not the problem in the America, the problem is all the random people everywhere who aren't part of the government, who aren't part of a collective, but are malicious anyway...

It's basically all the biker gangs and crazy New Mexico compounds or Waco that have been the real threat, and they've spiked in a kind of incredible way in the past 10 years, leading to all the overt unrest that people are seeing..

I think basically it boils down to America to Texas, Texas is a vast network and vast landscape of people who don't trust the government entirely and often live by their own rules, that's an advantage if the government is totalitarian, but it's also problematic because you are trusting these people who may or may not have values that you agree with, and yet they also are kind of anti-bad government, and it's been that way since they joined America give or take.

 

But that's a symptom of a problem and it really can't lead to the kinds of problems people are fretting about.

What people should be worrying about are the systems where that actually literally can, or even in fact, has partially already happened, such as

Australia

New Zealand

Ireland etc

More or less the countries that are the subject of the Game of Thrones, because while they do not have political systems like those found on the continent, they can definitely be shaped into ones like those found and that is more or less the most significant experience that's occurred in recent times in my opinion.

In fact, to me, Game of Thrones quite simply is the story of Ireland and Scotland, and of people who were once present in continental Europe but who then moved to New Zealand and Australia.

I must confess, my reference for Australia has been Crocodile Dundee and I mean I thought it was charming, but reading more on the internet it seems a lot of Australian people are very angry about their representations and perceptions and I suppose a series like Game of Thrones can make people understand why.. white culture in Europe was never limited to the continental strain which is altogether different and seeing the relative uniqueness of this newer type of culture probably is important for kind of international relations as a whole.

 

 

This is one long way of saying it can't happen here, which is false.

[Altherion]

10 hours ago, Morpheus said:

oh, in other news Mitch McConnell told some truth. He changed his tune about the precedent they invented about presidents not choosing an SC pick in an election year and said, when asked if he would have hearings for a Trump nominee in 2020, that he will not let  presidents from  an OPPOSING PARTY choose a justice in election years.

McConnell is having a really good Congress session. Even if the Democrats gain control of the Senate, Despite a rather unorthodox President who was nearly at war with certain Senators (*cough* Flake *cough*) from his own party and a rather thin margin of control (even thinner after this summer), he has wrested control of the Supreme Court away from the Democrats and passed the quintessentially Republican tax cuts (the main beneficiaries of which are corporations). Of course, his decisive moves (blocking Obama's nominee and ending the filibuster for Supreme Court candidates) have the potential to backfire eventually, but he's got to be pretty happy now.

10 hours ago, Rippounet said:

I'm surprised that you wouldn't see it done elsewhere. You have been one of the few people warning that Trump could be prelude to a worse populist demaogue/autocrat. I have come to agree in part, in the sense that I think the erosion of institutional norms and traditions will only get worse now, with or without Trump. The SCOTUS justices now being openly partisan for instance is something that will remain, and as political players adapt to that fact it will have various ripples on the functioning of the entire federal government

I still think Trump can be a prelude to something worse, but I would be surprised if this worse thing came from the left. The US allows radical leftists to exist, but it is pretty good at stomping them the moment they come anywhere close to power: not only is nearly all law enforcement oriented towards this end, but the left is the party of gun control...

[Darth Richard II]

38 minutes ago, Altherion said:

McConnell is having a really good Congress session. Even if the Democrats gain control of the Senate, Despite a rather unorthodox President who was nearly at war with certain Senators (*cough* Flake *cough*) from his own party and a rather thin margin of control (even thinner after this summer), he has wrested control of the Supreme Court away from the Democrats and passed the quintessentially Republican tax cuts (the main beneficiaries of which are corporations). Of course, his decisive moves (blocking Obama's nominee and ending the filibuster for Supreme Court candidates) have the potential to backfire eventually, but he's got to be pretty happy now.

I still think Trump can be a prelude to something worse, but I would be surprised if this worse thing came from the left. The US allows radical leftists to exist, but it is pretty good at stomping them the moment they come anywhere close to power: not only is nearly all law enforcement oriented towards this end, but the left is the party of gun control...

Hahahahahahahah WHAT?

[Bonnot OG]

2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Hahahahahahahah WHAT?

Lol idk why anyone bothers with one of our resident hard righ reactionary bigots anymore.

[mormont]

11 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Yea but I explained in the previous post why was such a comparison was vacuous, didn't I?

It does appear as if large parts of that argument are based on the common fallacy though, where someone makes a comparison between the US and 1930s Germany, invoking Hitler, and this is rebutted by complaining that the comparison is faulty because the modern US isn't like 1940s Germany. The point is not whether the US is there, but whether it is moving in that direction. You have not really made any substantial argument against that latter point, preferring to make arguments against the former. 

11 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

The moral of the story seems to be that hyperpartisanship is bad.  It leads to gridlock and loss of confidence in institutions.  This can eventually lead to an authoritarian take-over to 'get things done'.  

That suggests the cure here is not 'Trump is like Hitler' and 'McConnel is like Hindenberg' but a dialing back of hyperpartisanship.

Sure, but nobody seriously suggests that hyperpartisanship is equally distributed in the modern US. It's primarily, and by primarily I mean about 90%, a Republican problem. Democrats cannot solve that. Only Republicans can. And they show zero interest in solving it. So what's your solution?

10 hours ago, Serious Callers Only said:

Anyway why does america have presidential pardons? 

Presumably because there are times when pardoning someone is expedient or in the interests of the greater good. But anyway, courts don't issue pardons: pardons are not appeals or exoneration. Pardons involve an admission of guilt in the eyes of the law, but removal of the penalty. 

7 hours ago, Artimicia said:

All of this speculation and such on America and it's political situation and I can tell you, living in America or perhaps being present in America right this second, it's not like fascism has poured over the borders and into everyones life.

Well, no: it doesn't come over the borders. It arises from within them. 

Quote

First of all, the geography of America more or less precludes most totalitarian states because it's like half the size of Russia and even if you dig deep into one area or another usually the other places more or less aren't a part of it.

This seems very confused, particularly as you go on to talk about Australia and NZ. How are they geographically different from the US? All of these countries have large, thinly populated rural areas combined with large cities. 

Quote

Secondly, the nature of the government itself was designed entirely and for no other reason than to preclude the creation of a totalitarian state, and so there are a number of factors there.

That something was designed for a purpose, doesn't mean it is automatically going to succeed.