Did Old Gared Know About the Black Gate?

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

And what dearie does the ^ above have to do with your question that I responded to?

The above was what I was flapping my jaws about a few posts ago. Maybe my response was to long.

Did Gared, the momma dierwolf or Osha  & companions use the gate at Nightfort to get south of the Wall, no I dunna think so. The NW forgot their history. The northmen forgot forgot their history. Besides the Nightfort was shut down during Alysanne's time (year 36 -99) so you might get an answer in the upcoming book.

 

Yeah, sorry, I guess something got lost in translation.

I don't know about the others, but I'm now thinking that the wolf and Garen were sent through the Black Gate by Bloodraven through Coldhands to start the whole mess off.

[wia]

Actually one would think why would Osha&co be anywhere near Winterfell, but looking at a map, should one sneak past the Wall through the Gorge, and then chose the most obscure route on their way south, they'd be exactly where they encountered Bran - in Wolfswood near Winterfell.

And Gared "had been taken outside a small holdfast in the hills" and getting there from Winterfell required crossing the bridge. 

So it's actually possible that both Gared and Osha's group crossed via the Gorge. It doesn't really contradict their route. There isn't much options of where to go to the west.

[map]

[Nevets]

I seem to recall that people, especially lone individuals, can sneak past the Shadow Tower on the Bridge of Skulls.  I always figured that that was how Gared got across.  Draw a line between where Gared likely was to Winterfell, and it goes right through, or even west of, the Shadow Tower.  In other words, it is the most direct route to Winterfell.

I got the distinct impression that the existence of the Black Gate has bee long forgotten.  While the rangers patrol the top of the Wall and along its base, I don't think anybody has entered the Nightfort itself since around the time it was closed.  Long before any of the current Watchmen was born.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

There is also the gorge. If someone has mentioned this and I overlooked it, I apologize. Long way off though. Do we get a time-frame of how long between his encounter and his capture south of the wall there was?

[Valyrian Lance]

I am not sure why people think Winterfell is out of the way for anyone travelling south from the Shadow Tower. It is basically due south from there.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

4 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

There is also the gorge. If someone has mentioned this and I overlooked it, I apologize. Long way off though. Do we get a time-frame of how long between his encounter and his capture south of the wall there was?

No, Bran's chapter starts immediately after that while they're on their way to judgment. No time frame is given, but we must assume that it is at least ten days to two weeks later considering the travel Gared accomplishes. Ned does later mull that Gared was the fourth deserter that year, so the occurrence isn't so uncommon as to draw too much attention and it might explain why the NW was so "incompetent" about capturing him. Apparently, it is difficult to find a well trained ranger if he doesn't want to be found. Go figure.

The other thing I found odd was why were Ned and party going to the accused anyway? Usually, the accused would be dragged before the Lord in shackles for judgment and punishment, but kind 'ol Ned goes out to meet and greet and lop. I guess Catelyn was on a real wild tear that weekend.

 

3 hours ago, Valyrian Lance said:

I am not sure why people think Winterfell is out of the way for anyone travelling south from the Shadow Tower. It is basically due south from there.

Yes, but that route is through rather dense mountains and forest. Not impossible for a ranger of the NW on his game, but a man "half mad with fear" probably never would have found his way out of there,

And I don't think the issue is how he got where he got after crossing south. Ending up around Winterfell is inevitable when going south unless you actively go out of your way to avoid it. The question is why Gared would travel all the way to the ST or EW instead of going home and reporting. Him going through the ST or EW would explain why Mormont didn't know about his return if Gared decided to bolt after being sent back to CB from one of those two garrisons, but it doesn't explain why his state of mind and obvious distress wasn't noted or investigated by those garrison commanders unless he went batty later. And if that is the case it doesn't explain why Gared didn't report what he experienced or what happened to his companions.

 

I am now supposing that Gared didn't go mad with fear, although he was, of course,  pretty shaken up and did run in a panic. I think he went mad when 'Ol Splotchy warged into him and had Coldhands send him and the direwolf south though the Black Gate. It might explain why Gared doesn't report. He may not remember any of it in great detail. GRRM was careful not to have Garen speak during his judgment, so we don't have a firsthand account of his state of mind or what he might have said that people disregarded as gibberish. For all we know he was screaming "HODOR!" for an hour before the execution party showed up.

 

[wia]

6 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

The question is why Gared would travel all the way to the ST or EW instead of going home and reporting. Him going through the ST or EW would explain why Mormont didn't know about his return if Gared decided to bolt after being sent back to CB from one of those two garrisons, but it doesn't explain why his state of mind and obvious distress wasn't noted or investigated by those garrison commanders unless he went batty later. And if that is the case it doesn't explain why Gared didn't report what he experienced or what happened to his companions.

Uh, I think it's quite simple. Going back to NW = staying at the Wall near the Others. I'd go as far south or even to Essos if I could if I experienced what he did.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 minute ago, wia said:

Uh, I think it's quite simple. Going back to NW = staying at the Wall near the Others. I'd go as far south or even to Essos if I could if I experienced what he did.

 

I'm not questioning why he deserted, (assuming it really was his decision and he wasn't compelled by outside forces), I'm exploring how he deserted.

[wia]

1 minute ago, Trefayne said:

 

I'm not questioning why he deserted, (assuming it really was his decision and he wasn't compelled by outside forces), I'm exploring how he deserted.

I think it'd simply be much more difficult to desert from the NW than from beyond the Wall.

He'd have been pursued almost immediately after leaving the Wall. While if he simply doesn't come back with the rest of his group, the Watch would first look for him beyond the wall, which gives him time to run. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

2 minutes ago, wia said:

I think it'd simply be much more difficult to desert from the NW than from beyond the Wall.

He'd have been pursued almost immediately after leaving the Wall. While if he simply doesn't come back with the rest of his group, the Watch would first look for him beyond the wall, which gives him time to run. 

 

I agree, but that doesn't explain how he got south of the Wall and NW jurisdiction without some official, or even unofficial, interaction with the NW. From that I am now supposing that he went through the Black Gate, with help.

Let's try to make sense of a mad situation. Gared has the shock of his long hard life and goes half bonkers and decides to desert his brothers without warning them at all. Not even a note saying "We're all screwed. Run for your lives!". In this semi-lucid state, he still has the presence of mind to concoct a cunning plan to avoid his brother's scrutiny by not going to them and simply lying and saying that the Wildlings killed Will and Waymar and then hightailing it out of there when the LC is marshalling his troops for a reprisal, but by chancing a long and perilous journey to the gorge or the BoS or to either coast to steal a boat, all while avoiding the Others, wights, Wildlings and wild animals in a desolate wasteland for days on end. He also may have abandoned his horses somewhere. There is no mention of them at the judgment.

In the context of the overall story, the hand of a deeply rooted (pun intended) and far reaching actor as Bloodraven being involved seems less implausible to me than the accident of coincidence, especially if his plan was to get Bran to him all along and not just as a result of his fall and maiming.

[Valyrian Lance]

4 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

I agree, but that doesn't explain how he got south of the Wall and NW jurisdiction without some official, or even unofficial, interaction with the NW. From that I am now supposing that he went through the Black Gate, with help.

Bridge of Skulls

[The Commentator]

The wall was supposedly designed to stop an army.  A single man could get through underneath.  Gared got through in the same way the momma direwolf got through.  Who knows, maybe they took the same passage beneath the wall.  The wall was only an inconvenience to Mr. Rayder.  There has to be a way through.  

[wia]

Just now, Trefayne said:

 

I agree, but that doesn't explain how he got south of the Wall and NW jurisdiction without some official, or even unofficial, interaction with the NW. From that I am now supposing that he went through the Black Gate, with help.

Let's try to make sense of a mad situation. Gared has the shock of his long hard life and goes half bonkers and decides to desert his brothers without warning them at all. Not even a note saying "We're all screwed. Run for your lives!". In this semi-lucid state, he still has the presence of mind to concoct a cunning plan to avoid his brother's scrutiny by not going to them and simply lying and saying that the Wildlings killed Will and Waymar and then hightailing it out of there when the LC is marshalling his troops for a reprisal, but by chancing a long and perilous journey to the gorge or the BoS or to either coast to steal a boat, all while avoiding the Others, wights, Wildlings and wild animals in a desolate wasteland for days on end. He also may have abandoned his horses somewhere. There is no mention of them at the judgment.

In the context of the overall story, the hand of a deeply rooted (pun intended) and far reaching actor as Bloodraven being involved seems less implausible to me than the accident of coincidence, especially if his plan was to get Bran to him all along and not just as a result of his fall and maiming.

He could've gone though the Gorge like wildling Rangers do. He could've gone though the Black Gate with or without help.

I feel like you're overestimating his bonkers state. Robb thinks he was brave, Jon thinks he was dead of fear and Ned says that only a man who is afraid can be brave. Ned asked question and he answered them. So I'd assume he showed a lot of restraint at his execution. There are people who experienced similar things and their sanity was intact afterwards in the books.

I think he was afraid and he ran. He had two options: run to the Watch or run from the North for good. He chose run from the North and the ways to to that with what he had (or didn't have specifically: climbing equipment and/or a boat) are limited, namely the Gorge and the Black Gate, assuming he knew of the Black Gate. If he didn't, then he only had one option. As someone who has been a ranger for 40 years, it wouldn't be that difficult of a task for him to range south from beyond the wall in the Summer. It wasn't a walk in the park, but he's been doing similar things for decades, so he'd manage.

As to why he didn't warn his brothers, I think you would notice that despite being one of the most seasoned people on the wall with a heck of a lot expertise, he had very little power. Look how he was sent out with young Royce and was forced to obey him and was mocked by him. I think he may not have felt very forthcoming to go out of his way to warn the watch, especially considering that he likely doesn't know how to write, doesn't have any paper, ink, quill or ravens and informing in person would obstruct his escape.

[SirArthur]

There is no plothole and no complex explaination necessary.

First the rangers left Craster and rode north west. That means they crossed the Milkwater, a river running through the north and through the Gorge to pass into the sea. (It's in the prologue, read it)

Second we learn of three ways to cross the Wall in the very first book.  Not here and there but as a list of ways to cross the Wall: the Gorge, climbing in the middle and crossing with small boats in the east.

So, if Gared runs away and wants to pass the Wall, he has to cross the Milkwater first. However instead of climbing, he can simply follow the Milkwater and cross the Wall through the Gorge. 

Bonus fact: If he runs straight south from the Gorge, he reaches Winterfell.

There, all facts in the first book. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

3 minutes ago, wia said:

I feel like you're overestimating his bonkers state. Robb thinks he was brave, Jon thinks he was dead of fear and Ned says that only a man who is afraid can be brave. Ned asked question and he answered them. So I'd assume he showed a lot of restraint at his execution. There are people who experienced similar things and their sanity was intact afterwards in the books.

 

It was Ned who thought he was half mad. He told Catelyn as much in her first chapter. We don't know what was asked or replied, only that Ned found it unsatisfactory or unbelievable or crazy.

[wia]

1 minute ago, Trefayne said:

 

It was Ned who thought he was half mad. He told Catelyn as much in her first chapter. We don't know what was asked or replied, only that Ned found it unsatisfactory or unbelievable or crazy.

Well it's hard to say if Ned though that Gared was half-mad because he was talking of the Others or because he was acting half-mad. 'Cause Ned was sure the wildlings were the problem at that point.

I can see your point and it's not like I'm against the Bloodraven (or whoever else) being involved in Gared's escape. I just feel like we need something more to confirm that.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

There is no plothole and no complex explaination necessary.

First the rangers left Craster and rode north west. That means they crossed the Milkwater, a river running through the north and through the Gorge to pass into the sea. (It's in the prologue, read it)

Second we learn of three ways to cross the Wall in the very first book.  Not here and there but as a list of ways to cross the Wall: the Gorge, climbing in the middle and crossing with small boats in the east.

So, if Gared runs away and wants to pass the Wall, he has to cross the Milkwater first. However instead of climbing, he can simply follow the Milkwater and cross the Wall through the Gorge. 

Bonus fact: If he runs straight south from the Gorge, he reaches Winterfell.

There, all facts in the first book. 

 

They traveled north, then northwest and then north again. There is no mention of Craster or the Milkwater or any river crossing at all. It does specifically state that they are in the Haunted Forest though, which is a bit east of those landmarks and in the direction stated in the text.

There, all facts in the first book.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

12 minutes ago, wia said:

I can see your point and it's not like I'm against the Bloodraven (or whoever else) being involved in Gared's escape. I just feel like we need something more to confirm that.

 

On that we can whole heartedly agree. But unless we get more from Bran than three chapters next book, we may never know.

[SirArthur]

15 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

They traveled north, then northwest and then north again. There is no mention of Craster or the Milkwater or any river crossing at all. It does specifically state that they are in the Haunted Forest though, which is a bit east of those landmarks and in the direction stated in the text.

That's odd. I thought it was in the prologue. But you are right, it is a combination of the prologue and ACoK (Jon III). 

prologue (they start at Castle Black):

Ser Waymar looked him over with open disapproval. "I am not going back to Castle Black a failure on my first ranging. We will find these men." He glanced around. "Up the tree. Be quick about it. Look for a fire."

Jon III:

Lord Mormont said, "Ben was searching for Ser Waymar Royce, who'd vanished with Gared and young Will."

"Aye, those three I recall. The lordling no older than one of these pups. Too proud to sleep under my roof, him in his sable cloak and black steel. My wives give him big cow eyes all the same." He turned his squint on the nearest of the women. "Gared says they were chasing raiders. I told him, with a commander that green, best not catch 'em. Gared wasn't half-bad, for a crow. Had less ears than me, that one. The 'bite took 'em, same as mine." Craster laughed. "Now I hear he got no head neither. The 'bite do that too?"

And that crossing of the Milkwater, I will get to that later when I have time and can compare all the published maps. Anyway, they were at Craster's. 

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Second we learn of three ways to cross the Wall in the very first book.  Not here and there but as a list of ways to cross the Wall: the Gorge, climbing in the middle and crossing with small boats in the east.

I agree there are multiple ways to circumvent the Wall.

 

Both of you are yammering.  Both to lazy to provide supporting evidence.

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

First the rangers left Craster and rode north west. That means they crossed the Milkwater, a river running through the north and through the Gorge to pass into the sea. (It's in the prologue, read it)

 

44 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

They traveled north, then northwest and then north again. There is no mention of Craster or the Milkwater or any river crossing at all. It does specifically state that they are in the Haunted Forest though, which is a bit east of those landmarks and in the direction stated in the text.

Who went missing first? Waymar or Benjen? Waymar did.  Benjen went looking for Waymar & company. Then Benjen went missing.

 A Clash of Kings - Jon III    Lord Mormont said, "Ben was searching for Ser Waymar Royce, who'd vanished with Gared and young Will."    "Aye, those three I recall. The lordling no older than one of these pups. Too proud to sleep under my roof, him in his sable cloak and black steel. My wives give him big cow eyes all the same." He turned his squint on the nearest of the women. "Gared says they were chasing raiders. I told him, with a commander that green, best not catch 'em. Gared wasn't half-bad, for a crow. Had less ears than me, that one. The 'bite took 'em, same as mine." Craster laughed. "Now I hear he got no head neither. The 'bite do that too?"

 

Martin don't seem to have GPS working in ASOIAF.

 

Edit:  Craster denies Benjen Stark came his way. And I have that ambiguous time frame mumbo jumbo.

A Clash of Kings - Jon III  "I've not seen Benjen Stark for three years," he was telling Mormont. "And if truth be told, I never once missed him."  <snip>   "He ought to have passed here last year," said Thoren Smallwood.