Did Old Gared Know About the Black Gate?

[SirArthur]

27 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Both of you are yammering.  Both to lazy to provide supporting evidence.

sure, 

as long as I don't find a quote about the distance from Craster to the Milkwater, you will never be convinced. I don't know what you actually want. Combating the idea that Gared used the Gorge ?

fun fact: the Milkwater as name was never mentioned in the first book. 

[Clegane'sPup]

26 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

sure, 

as long as I don't find a quote about the distance from Craster to the Milkwater, you will never be convinced. I don't know what you actually want. Combating the idea that Gared used the Gorge ?

fun fact: the Milkwater as name was never mentioned in the first book. 

Perhaps I did not properly articulate myself. Happens frequently.

The Gorge is basically a a reference to the area near ST.

In my simplistic manner I previously typed that there are three ways to circumvent the Wall.  Climb it, sneak past EW, or sneak past ST. OR the newly added mystical door at Nightfort that only recognizes special words.

On the previous page of this thread I noted that Craster told Mormont that Waymar had been to his humble abode. Craster denied that Benjen had been round. Benjen was supposed be checking out why Waymar disappeared.

Who went missing first? Waymar or Benjen? Waymar did.  Benjen went looking for Waymar & company. Then Benjen went missing.

 A Clash of Kings - Jon III    Lord Mormont said, "Ben was searching for Ser Waymar Royce, who'd vanished with Gared and young Will."    "Aye, those three I recall. The lordling no older than one of these pups. Too proud to sleep under my roof, him in his sable cloak and black steel. My wives give him big cow eyes all the same." He turned his squint on the nearest of the women. "Gared says they were chasing raiders. I told him, with a commander that green, best not catch 'em. Gared wasn't half-bad, for a crow. Had less ears than me, that one. The 'bite took 'em, same as mine." Craster laughed. "Now I hear he got no head neither. The 'bite do that too?"

 

Martin don't seem to have GPS working in ASOIAF.

 

Craster denies Benjen Stark came his way. And I have that ambiguous time frame mumbo jumbo as is referenced below.

A Clash of Kings - Jon III  "I've {Craster} not seen Benjen Stark for three years," he was telling Mormont. "And if truth be told, I never once missed him."  <snip>   "He ought to have passed here last year," said Thoren Smallwood.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Westwatch-by-the-Bridge

Ach me lovies I do apologize.

Westwatch-by-the-Bridge is the westernmost castle of the Night's Watch, located near the Gorge and the Bridge of Skulls.  East of the abandoned castle is the Shadow Tower, the westernmost of the inhabited castles of the Watch.

A Dance with Dragons places Westwatch north of the Gorge and west of the Wall. The Lands of Ice and Fire depicts Westwatch south of the Gorge and just east of the Bridge of Skulls, where the Wall ends.

So much for stand alone ASOIAF.

Edit: Yep there it is on the the DwD book map.

 

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

28 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Westwatch-by-the-Bridge

Ach me lovies I do apologize.

Westwatch-by-the-Bridge is the westernmost castle of the Night's Watch, located near the Gorge and the Bridge of Skulls.  East of the abandoned castle is the Shadow Tower, the westernmost of the inhabited castles of the Watch.

A Dance with Dragons places Westwatch north of the Gorge and west of the Wall. The Lands of Ice and Fire depicts Westwatch south of the Gorge and just east of the Bridge of Skulls, where the Wall ends.

So much for stand alone ASOIAF.

Edit: Yep there it is on the the DwD book map.

 

 

 

Lol! It gets really bad when your "unreliable narrator" is a map.

I don't discount Gared meandering all over to go to the gorge/BoS and back to near WF. I just find it less fun than thinking he was sent through the BG.

And yes, they were at Craster's obviously (thank you for that), although it doesn't seem that they stayed long. That would put them a little east of the Haunted Forest if we take the directions in the prologue at face value. Will was pretty spooked, even for "a veteran of a hundred rangings", so he might have been a little off in his estimations of direction. They could have followed the raiding party a little northeast and they all crossed the Milkwater near its headwaters where it would be little more than a stream and hardly worth mentioning.

After that they headed into the HF. He did think that it would take them a fortnight to get back to CB on horseback, so that gives us an estimation for a normal time frame for the direct journey back at a reasonable pace. Garen would have traveled a bit more hurriedly I'd think. Sam was pretty upset when he met Bran and Co., whining about how the Wall was "a hundred leagues long and seven hundred feet high" and how he couldn't find it, so I suppose even an experienced man could get a little lost out there until he sees a familiar landmark.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

Frankly I do not know how Gared, the dierwolf or Osha & crew got south of the Wall.

That Westwatch shyte piqued my cursorily.

Martin's GPS ain't workin' in ASOIAF..

Now Dardo, Flame of the Arrow,,   EDIT:  my youtube clips didn't work. So again I am

 

 

 

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

14 hours ago, Trefayne said:

The other thing I found odd was why were Ned and party going to the accused anyway? Usually, the accused would be dragged before the Lord in shackles for judgment and punishment, but kind 'ol Ned goes out to meet and greet and lop.

The Starks made a boys' day out of it. Packed a lunch, a few brewskies and a greatsword. Me, my Dad and my uncles used to do it all the time.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

14 hours ago, Trefayne said:

The other thing I found odd was why were Ned and party going to the accused anyway? Usually, the accused would be dragged before the Lord in shackles for judgment and punishment, but kind 'ol Ned goes out to meet and greet and lop. I guess Catelyn was on a real wild tear that weekend.

...but seriously. I guess it's reasonable that Ned didn't want his ritual executions taking place in the back garden, so that beheadings became a feature of life at Winterfell. It makes for a disturbing home life. Much better to do it quietly away from home.

14 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Yes, but that route is through rather dense mountains and forest. Not impossible for a ranger of the NW on his game, but a man "half mad with fear" probably never would have found his way out of there,

Well, what we know of Gared might suggest that he could make his way through rough terrain on instinct alone, even if he had gone mad. Or, if he wasn't capable, he'd need to rely on the softer terrain along the Kingsroad, which also goes by Winterfell. Those are of course, contradictory explanations, but both are plausible.

14 hours ago, Trefayne said:

And I don't think the issue is how he got where he got after crossing south. Ending up around Winterfell is inevitable when going south unless you actively go out of your way to avoid it. The question is why Gared would travel all the way to the ST or EW instead of going home and reporting.

I thought that was made pretty clear. He went mad with fear and just wanted to get as far from the Others as possible. If he went home and reported, he wouldn't have been able to leave.

 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The Starks made a boys' day out of it. Packed a lunch, a few brewskies and a greatsword. Me, my Dad and my uncles used to do it all the time.

 

And Ned wanted to save his men some trouble and effort. They did have to cut Gared down from the holdfast's wall after all.

 

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

...but seriously. I guess it's reasonable that Ned didn't want his ritual executions taking place in the back garden, so that beheadings became a feature of life at Winterfell. It makes for a disturbing home life. Much better to do it quietly away from home.

 

That doesn't seem to fit with his character or "medieval justice" at all. Judgment and punishment were meted out as publicly as possible to be sure to have plenty of witnesses to it and to inform as many people as possible of the consequences of misdeeds. This was one of the reasons it was dispensed at the seat of power (if possible). It was stated by Ned that it was the fourth desertion that year (I assume to reach far enough south to warrant his involvement, unless the Watch is in the habit of informing the realm of every single desertion), but nothing is said about where justice was meted in those cases.

But, as I stated earlier in the thread - no excursion = no incredibly timely discovery of the direwolves. Bran could have received the important life lessons at home, but the pups were the main reason to be lucky to be out and about.

 

2 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

I thought that was made pretty clear. He went mad with fear and just wanted to get as far from the Others as possible. If he went home and reported, he wouldn't have been able to leave.

 

Poppycock! People leave the Wall all the time.

I'm sorry, but I'm just having trouble reconciling "mad with fear" and not taking a beeline for the nearest safe haven two weeks away or even Craster's.

In a blind panic, people will run in whatever direction they deem safe at the time, whether it really is or not. They are frightened and might not be at their mental best, but they are not irrational in the true sense of the word. After a time, as long as the immediate danger has passed, they regain their senses and start thinking about more practical matters like "Ok, what am I going to do now?".

Someone "mad with fear" is likely to run in any direction, without thinking at all about the consequences. They may or may not become more rational as time and immediate danger pass and by chance they might end up on a path to safety, but those are less likely when you throw in harsh terrain, inclement weather, wild animals and a dogged pursuer (as far as we know the WW and wights never give up the chase).

Again, we only have Ned's estimation of the man to go on; half mad with fear and seemingly unable to understand/register Ned's questions to him.

If we take the practical approach then Gared, in a blind panic, rode away after the encounter with just one horse in a basically southeasterly direction, perhaps with an initial thought to reach Craster's after he somewhat regained his senses. He travels quickly, hardly resting the horse and napping in the saddle as the WW are on his tail. However, in his panic he has misinterpreted his true direction and overshoots Craster's to the east (we know that he never shows back up there in any case). Realizing this and knowing that reversing his course or trying to circle back to try to get to CB would most likely result in him running into his pursuers, Gared decides to try for the gorge. After a harried and hurried journey (and losing his horse), he emerges on the other side of the Wall safe from the Others, but he still feels scared and unsafe and continues on without rest. Now is the point that Gared decides to desert or possibly he didn't and he was just exhausted and sleep deprived and got lost. He gets picked up near WF looking ragged and babbling on about mythical beasties and they pin him to the gates and send a raven to their lord. He is apparently rational enough to at least understand what was going to happen to him as Ned remarks that "the man died well".

If we take the mythical approach, then Bloodraven was watching and had Coldhands help Gared get away and maneuvered him into a position to help get Ghost in place to keep an eye on Jon and begin Bran on his journey. Gared babbling about WW and wights and dead men on giant elks and trees with mouths that open at a recitation of a vow to open a secret passage under the Wall would all be taken as madness. As I stated before, GRRM was very specific about not letting us in on the interaction between Ned and Gared. In fact, he goes out of his way to tell us that Bran doesn't remember what was said because he was so caught up in the enormity of what he was about to witness for the first time.

 

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

7 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

That doesn't seem to fit with his character or "medieval justice" at all. Judgment and punishment were meted out as publicly as possible to be sure to have plenty of witnesses to it and to inform as many people as possible of the consequences of misdeeds. This was one of the reasons it was dispensed at the seat of power (if possible).

But clearly not in this case, which suggests the way Ned did business doesn't fit with that. That was my speculation. There may be other ideas.

8 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

snip

As to the rest, I think it's perfectly plausible that Gared was scared stiff, and decided to simply get as far away from the Wall as possible. Others may have reacted differently, in fact others do, but that doesn't mean it's inconceivable that he reacted the way he did.

[Unacosamedarisa]

Always been my headcanon that Coldhands, at the direction of Bloodraven, guided Gared to the Black Gate. In exchange Gared let the pregnant Direwolf through, and into the South. 

[Three-Fingered Pete]

44 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Always been my headcanon that Coldhands, at the direction of Bloodraven, guided Gared to the Black Gate. In exchange Gared let the pregnant Direwolf through, and into the South. 

 

I have come to the same conclusion, except that I'm not sure Gared was a willing participant. Now if I can just figure out how 'Ol Splotchy managed the stag...