Marriage Double Standards

[Angel Eyes]

I’m just wondering, but what sort of double standards are present regarding marriages amongst the Great Houses? For example, Hoster Tully didn’t want his daughters to marry Petyr Baelish, but Tywin Lannister allowed his brother to marry the daughter of a knight, a knight whose family had lost some lands, judging by the fact that they aren’t lords anymore. I thought lords were higher than knights on the social pyramid.

[Bernie Mac]

7 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I’m just wondering, but what sort of double standards are present regarding marriages amongst the Great Houses? For example, Hoster Tully didn’t want his daughters to marry Petyr Baelish, but Tywin Lannister allowed his brother to marry the daughter of a knight, a knight whose family had lost some lands, judging by the fact that they aren’t lords anymore. I thought lords were higher than knights on the social pyramid.

House Swyft are much more significant than House Baelish, it is a pretty poor comparison. They lost a title, nowhere is it said they lost lands.

 

Some knightley  Houses are just as powerful as Lords

[Moiraine Sedai]

The Lannisters are already at the top.  And there are many of them.  Hoster was probably more snobbish than Tywin and he only had three assets at his disposal.  Can't squander one on a Baelish.

[wia]

My guess would be that Joanna played a part there.

[argonak]

28 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I’m just wondering, but what sort of double standards are present regarding marriages amongst the Great Houses? For example, Hoster Tully didn’t want his daughters to marry Petyr Baelish, but Tywin Lannister allowed his brother to marry the daughter of a knight, a knight whose family had lost some lands, judging by the fact that they aren’t lords anymore. I thought lords were higher than knights on the social pyramid.

Tywin saw advantage to a close alliance with Swyft at the time.  Since Swyft doesn't appear to be paticularlly. . . swift, or rich, he must have a reasonably valuable strategic position with the territory of Cornfield, or a decent number of troops.

Baelish is one of the poorest of lords possible to still be a lord.  He was only fostered with Riverrun because of his father's personal connection with Hoster.

[Canon Claude]

A younger brother is not the same as a daughter. Kevan has more freedom to marry whom ever he wants because he’s not going to be lord of Casterly Rock. Tywin would never let Jaime marry into House Swyft, he was looking at Lysa Tully as a possible match. And he was even more ambitious regarding Cersei and Rhaegar.

[norwaywolf123]

Hoster did not want either of his daughters married Petyr Baelish, at a time where Baelish had nothing tangiable to offer. If he had gotten the same opportunity once Petyr became master of coinand a wealthy man, then maybe he would be more agreeable wit hthe match. House Swyft are landed knights. The Swyfts can as landed knights rule over smallfolk in their area, and can raise troops. Landed knights lack the authority to deliver justice in their land, instead they have to rely on their liege lord. 

[Stormking902]

The OP's example is a bad one IMO, Kevin married the daughter of one of his brothers bannerman which is normal and it doesnt matter if its a small house she was still nobility all the same. Now if Kevin wanted to marry a smallfolk woman Tywin would not allow such a stain but the swyfts are fine. 

 

Keep in mind some knightly houses are more powerful then lordly house for example house Swyft is more powerful then house Westerling of the Crag, house Templeton although a knightly house are vastly more powerful then house Baelish. 

[Lollygag]

There’s no strict system, just general guidelines. Designing a strict system for Westeros would limit GRRM’s options for plots and would limit options for character choices thus making for less dynamic characters and a more boring story.

This allows the major houses a fair degree of autonomy. If Ned wanted to marry Sansa to Moon Boy because she like the Florian and Jonquil stories, he could have though people would think him nuts for it.

Looking for a clear pattern or hierarchy is projecting real life systems onto a fictional fantasy world.

 

[Angel Eyes]

48 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Looking for a clear pattern or hierarchy is projecting real life systems onto a fictional fantasy world.

 

 

 

Isn’t that what GRRM is doing in the first place, projecting real life systems onto a fictional fantasy world?

[Lollygag]

33 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Isn’t that what GRRM is doing in the first place, projecting real life systems onto a fictional fantasy world?

In *very* broad strokes. Not in exacting detail or anything even close to exacting detail in some circumstances. Anything that's there is there to serve the story. He's not writing a history textbook.

I've seen people try to explain the Iron Bank's motives in terms of hedge funds and investment portfolios. These concepts are important to real life banks, but you've gotta ask if GRRM is really interested in any of that or whether it even fits the story.

[Lady Barbrey]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Isn’t that what GRRM is doing in the first place, projecting real life systems onto a fictional fantasy world?

Actually I think he is doing that and Petyr is a prime example of how aristocracy worked in Britain too.  Eligibility for marriage would be based on land, title, breeding and wealth.  A Lord with little land, poor breeding (a sellsword from Braavos is not a recommendation), and no wealth would be well beneath a Tully, or almost any other Lordship when it came to marriage. All he had was a title, so the only Houses likely to marry in would be those without one, from a junior house or something.  A very good match for Petyr would have been the daughter of a baronet who had inferior title but decent breeding and land. Then their children could move up through the ranks, and the title would definitely be an advantage for them.

[Angel Eyes]

53 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Actually I think he is doing that and Petyr is a prime example of how aristocracy worked in Britain too.  Eligibility for marriage would be based on land, title, breeding and wealth.  A Lord with little land, poor breeding (a sellsword from Braavos is not a recommendation), and no wealth would be well beneath a Tully, or almost any other Lordship when it came to marriage. All he had was a title, so the only Houses likely to marry in would be those without one, from a junior house or something.  A very good match for Petyr would have been the daughter of a baronet who had inferior title but decent breeding and land. Then their children could move up through the ranks, and the title would definitely be an advantage for them.

So what’s the equivalent of a baronet in Westeros?

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Wasn't Kevan's and Tywin's father,Tytos, still alive and Lord of Casterly Rock when Kevan married Dorna Swyft? We know Tytos betrothed his daughter to a Frey and while Tywin was not happy about it he could do nothing to stop it,

However if Tywin did give his approval for the match I believe it may be partly because Harys Swyft was the first lord in the Westerlands to submit to Tywin and hand over his daughter, Dorna, as a hostage until House Swyft was able to repay the loans they owed House Lannister. By giving his approval of Kevan's marriage to House Swyft, Tywin showed the Westerlands that a House that corroborates with him could rise while Houses who didn't, like the Reyne and Tarbecks, would fall. Also Kevan had always been steadfast and incredibly loyal to Tywin, so perhaps Tywin awarded Kevan by giving him his support to marry a noblewoman he genuinely loved.

[Lollygag]

7 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Wasn't Kevan's and Tywin's father,Tytos, still alive and Lord of Casterly Rock when Kevan married Dorna Swyft? We know Tytos betrothed his daughter to a Frey and while Tywin was not happy about it he could do nothing to stop it,

However if Tywin did give his approval for the match I believe it may be partly because Harys Swyft was the first lord in the Westerlands to submit to Tywin and hand over his daughter, Dorna, as a hostage until House Swyft was able to repay the loans they owed House Lannister. By giving his approval of Kevan's marriage to House Swyft, Tywin showed the Westerlands that a House that corroborates with him could rise while Houses who didn't, like the Reyne and Tarbecks, would fall. Also Kevan had always been steadfast and incredibly loyal to Tywin, so perhaps Tywin awarded Kevan by giving him his support to marry a noblewoman he genuinely loved. 

Having a system which isn't very well-defined lets the author create interesting situations like this one.

[Lady Barbrey]

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So what’s the equivalent of a baronet in Westeros?

A minor baron from a knightly house I guess.  George wanted a simple system so we get 'Lord's who can range in power from someone commanding 50,000 troops to someone like Petyr commanding 50. My understanding is that Lords have some political and magisterial clout - Petyr could execute a thief among his hundred villagers for example - while barons from knightly houses in theory defer to their noble houses on decision-making like that. But that's as far as his title would go aside from ceremonial purposes, where he would sit at table in a higher position than a baron.

But in practical terms, Petyr as a minor Lord with his few acres is as far away from Lysa as if he were a street sweeper.  Her father is a Paramount Lord, equivalent to a Duke, and she's the equivalent to a princess in older terminology.

So I think it does work similarly, it's just the titles that are confusing, which George himself admits because in hindsight he'd have put in a few other titles, at least one to divide the High Lords from the Minor Lords.

[Corvo the Crow]

Dorna-Kevan is a poor example I believe. Tywin is not too much happy about it and thinks Harys Swyft's only accomplishment is marrying Dorna to Kevan or perhaps it was Tyrion. Either way, Dorna was a hostage because Harys couldn't repay the loan given to him. It wouldn't be surprising if Dorna was encouraged to marry a Lannister by her family.

Going back on topic, Jorah, a lord, had a Glover bride and Glovers are a masterly house but are obviously much more powerful than Mormonts. In turn Sybelle Locke is from a lordly house and a powerful one at that and yet is married to a master. Cercei's Farman friend, sister to the current lord, is married to Ser Clifton, a vassal to Farmans. Garlan has taken a Fossoway bride and they are a knightly house and this is despite that Garlan being second in line with no marriage prospects of marriage on the horizon for Willas.

Honestly it doesn't matter as long as the house is prestigious(old) enough and is "powerful enough". Westerosi don't care. Petyr is at the bottom of the landed nobility though, even Eustace Osgrey had a better "keep" compared to Petyr's and had 3 villages in a fertile area to 1 village of Petyr's at a rocky coast with moorland around.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

 

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Eligibility for marriage would be based on land, title, breeding and wealth.

This is the key point. For purposes of real politik, a high lord would want their children/siblings to marry to powerful houses - e.g. those with land and money, or some other important political consideration. However, breeding is also important.

Kevan is actually an interesting example. Tyrion notes that Kevan seems shocked at the idea of marrying his son to a Westerling. Not because they are poor, but because they married into the Spicer family. Obviously he didn't have that same attitude to the Swifts, probably because they're an ancient house, even if they haven't attained lordship, or have lost it.

With regards to Hoster/Littlefinger, I don’t think Hoster’s reaction was solely down to breeding to be honest. I wouldn’t be surprised if, say a Swyft knocked up one of his daughters, and very publicly challenged his other daughter’s betrothed to a dual, he probably would have reacted the same way. If the boy in question was a particularly good catch, he may have arranged a shotgun wedding with Lysa as a more preferable method of cover up I guess, but maybe not.

[rotting sea cow]

18 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I’m just wondering, but what sort of double standards are present regarding marriages amongst the Great Houses? For example, Hoster Tully didn’t want his daughters to marry Petyr Baelish, but Tywin Lannister allowed his brother to marry the daughter of a knight, a knight whose family had lost some lands, judging by the fact that they aren’t lords anymore. I thought lords were higher than knights on the social pyramid. 

As others have pointed out

1) Hoster Tully wanted to use the marriage of her daughters to solidify powerful political alliances. Baelish (at that time) didn't have any power.

2) Even if he is a lord, he is taunted as the smallest of all lords of the Fingers, the littlefinger. His lands are just few stony acres good only for pasturing sheep. In contrast, Swyft lands are close to the Reach and likely very productive in agricultural products.

There are certainly many similar situations where landed knights in one place are richer and more powerful than lords of other places.

[Bernie Mac]

17 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

Obviously he didn't have that same attitude to the Swifts, probably because they're an ancient house, even if they haven't attained lordship, or have lost it.

 

They lost it, they were still Lords during the Dance

By nightfall two thousand men were dead, amongst them many notables, including Lord Frey, Lord Lefford, Lord Bigglestone, Lord Charlton, Lord Swyft, Lord Reyne, Ser Clarent Crakehall, and Ser Tyler Hill, the Bastard of Lannisport. 

Logically they are still an important House given Tywin allows a member to sit on his war council and Tyrion see's enough of them to be noteworthy when describing his father's army . 

Ser Addam Marbrand had the command. Tyrion saw his banner unfurl as his standard-bearer shook it out; a burning tree, orange and smoke. Behind him flew Ser Flement's purple unicorn, the brindled boar of Crakehall, the bantam rooster of Swyft, and more.