Marriage Double Standards

[The hairy bear]

15 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Wasn't Kevan's and Tywin's father,Tytos, still alive and Lord of Casterly Rock when Kevan married Dorna Swyft?

In all likelihood, Tytos was dead when Kevan married Dorna Swift. Their firstborn, Lancel, was born in 282 and Tytos died at 267.

(In fact, it's a little weird that Kevan didn't have his first child until he was 37. Specially since we know that he was Donna's guardian since he was 15... Perhaps Donna was his second wife, after a childless marriage)

But, in any case, a daughter of House Swyft seems to me a perfectly valid option for a Lannister second son to marry. Certainly not a first tier match, but not the shameful union of Genna to Emmon. There are landed knights, such as the Templetons in the Vale, that are more powerful than most lords of Westeros. The Swyft are clearly among the most powerful Lannister bannermen.

[Lady Barbrey]

7 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

 

This is the key point. For purposes of real politik, a high lord would want their children/siblings to marry to powerful houses - e.g. those with land and money, or some other important political consideration. However, breeding is also important.

Kevan is actually an interesting example. Tyrion notes that Kevan seems shocked at the idea of marrying his son to a Westerling. Not because they are poor, but because they married into the Spicer family. Obviously he didn't have that same attitude to the Swifts, probably because they're an ancient house, even if they haven't attained lordship, or have lost it.

With regards to Hoster/Littlefinger, I don’t think Hoster’s reaction was solely down to breeding to be honest. I wouldn’t be surprised if, say a Swyft knocked up one of his daughters, and very publicly challenged his other daughter’s betrothed to a dual, he probably would have reacted the same way. If the boy in question was a particularly good catch, he may have arranged a shotgun wedding with Lysa as a more preferable method of cover up I guess, but maybe not.

Yes, very good point about the breeding.  I've read enough historical romances to know this was a key consideration!  But also very true.  The nobility did consider themselves a breed apart, feudal classism smacks very much of racism in that regard.  It's hard to twist our democratic minds around it but most nobles really regarded peasants and commoners as inferior humans, and they did everything they could, from manners to accents to sumptuary laws (only nobles could wear fine clothes) to laws in the land and education to draw a hard line in the sand between the 'well-bred' and the common. The North is more egalitarian to a degree, but even their noble houses would never let their sons or daughters marry with commoners because their blood was simply different, it would be like marrying monkeys. Some of the Targs themselves saw themselves as even higher than the nobles, as witness Aerys exclaiming in disgust when little dark-haired Rhaenys is born that she 'smells Dornish'. 

And you really see this come into play in England when tradesmen and merchants begin amassing vast fortunes.  Where do they fit into this scheme? They do start marrying in, mostly by 'buying' impoverished titles, marrying their kids to bankrupt Lord's or their scions.  But it takes generations for their children to be accepted because they 'smack of trade' in their breeding.

I do wonder how long it would take for the descendents of Bronn and Lollys to be accepted as decent marriage material.  Petyr as grandchild of an upjumped Braavosi mercenary has an impure line, his blood isn't quite right, no matter the title, and this matters more the higher up the social scale you go. A mere 'master' or 'sir' from an old house with no stain on its antecedents, who had some property would be a more acceptable match for Lysa than Petyr.

It makes me a little curious about that Braavosi mercenary who became a Lord - one wonders if Petyr came by his genes honestly and there was something of the wheeler dealer in his ancestor, because going from his status to a Lord is pretty similar a stretch to Petyr going from petty Lord to Lord Paramount.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

5 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

In all likelihood, Tytos was dead when Kevan married Dorna Swift. Their firstborn, Lancel, was born in 282 and Tytos died at 267.

(In fact, it's a little weird that Kevan didn't have his first child until he was 37. Specially since we know that he was Donna's guardian since he was 15... Perhaps Donna was his second wife, after a childless marriage)

For whatever it's worth the wiki says that Kevan Lannister married Dorna in 266 AC and it seems to be backed up by the World of Ice and Fire book.

 In 266 AC, Lady Joanna gave birth to twins, a boy and a girl. Meanwhile, Ser. Tywin's brother Ser. Kevan had also wed, taking to bride the daughter of Ser Harys Swyft of Cornfield, who had once been given to him as a hostage for her father's debts.

In 267 AC, Lord Tytos Lannister's heart burst as he was climbing a steep flight of step to the bedchamber of his mistress.-The World of Ice and Fire-The Westerlands: House Lannister under the dragons.

Not only is the date confirmed but it refers to Tywin as Ser. Tywin and not Lord Tywin when Kevan was married, meaning Tytos was still alive and Lord of Casterly Rock. But yes, it's strange that they didn't have any children until they had been married for 15 years and Kevan was 37. 

Who knows, maybe Dorna suffered multiple miscarriages early on in their marriage and almost died, So Kevan didn't want to put her at risk until many years after when he was convinced she was healthy enough to live through child birth since he loves her and doesn't just see her as a broodmare. Perhaps Joanna Lannister's death influenced him as well, I dunno.

21 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Having a system which isn't very well-defined lets the author create interesting situations like this one.

I think this is most likely the case for Kevan and Dorna not having children until 15 years after their marriage. 

[Bernie Mac]

26 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

 

Not only is the date confirmed but it refers to Tywin as Ser. Tywin and not Lord Tywin when Kevan was married, meaning Tytos was still alive and Lord of Casterly Rock.

I was going to counter but that seems pretty conclusive, nice catch

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I do wonder how long it would take for the descendents of Bronn and Lollys to be accepted as decent marriage material.  Petyr as grandchild of an upjumped Braavosi mercenary has an impure line, his blood isn't quite right, no matter the title, and this matters more the higher up the social scale you go. A mere 'master' or 'sir' from an old house with no stain on its antecedents, who had some property would be a more acceptable match for Lysa than Petyr.

Just look at the Freys - they've been lords for centuries, and are still looked down upon as upstarts.

 

12 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

In fact, it's a little weird that Kevan didn't have his first child until he was 37. Specially since we know that he was Donna's guardian since he was 15...

It happens. Some people find it hard to conceive for years, then suddenly get a bunch of kids.