The Witcher on Netflix 2: Man of steel and silver

[Mexal]

18 minutes ago, Ran said:

The whole savage brutality in their conquests that led people to commit suicide rather than be captured wasn't something suggestive of why they should be seen as bad guys?

Sure. But it's one sided. All you see is that side without any other point of reference. That leads into the "they're bad because they're doing it" realm. Rather than giving them any motivation, they show them brutally killing people they invade and that's supposed to be enough. But if I stop to think for even two seconds, I bet Queen Calanthe wasn't very favorable to those she invaded or killed.

Anyway, I know enough of the plot that I know there will be an expansion of motivations in season 2. My point was more directed to Seli who was fine with it because of the type of show it is.

[Veltigar]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

The whole savage brutality in their conquests that led people to commit suicide rather than be captured wasn't something suggestive of why they should be seen as bad guys?

I mean Japanese soldiers often killed themselves instead of being captured by the Americans, who were quite benign to their POW's :p (obviously not true about the Nilfgaardians, but advocate of the devil and all)

1 hour ago, Mexal said:

Sure. But it's one sided. All you see is that side without any other point of reference. That leads into the "they're bad because they're doing it" realm. Rather than giving them any motivation, they show them brutally killing people they invade and that's supposed to be enough. But if I stop to think for even two seconds, I bet Queen Calanthe wasn't very favorable to those she invaded or killed.

 

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Mexal said:

...bet Queen Calanthe wasn't very favorable to those she invaded or killed.

Didn't an elf speak of Calanthe and her kingdom whatever it's called treating them very very very badly? Which led me to not care much about whether they, whoever / whatever that kingdom is, are or are not invaded and conquered.  It's the Wars of the Roses -- nobody on either side is good or bad particularly; it's just about who gets the power to plunder the land and the people who have no say whoever is at the top.

~~~~~~~~~~~

The Hedgehog Prince and the final, war episodes were the two that worked best for me -- except for the latter with the Ciri-Geralt running running running and turning around falling-into-arms OUR DESTINY! bs. 

The sorceresses were interesting and did interesting magic -- even if I didn't know why Frangili was now the way she was or doing what she was doing.  I liked the way the magic was presented (though I couldn't believe in how the army was organized and deployed for the attack -- sheesh!).

 

 

[Ran]

51 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

mean Japanese soldiers often killed themselves instead of being captured by the Americans, who were quite benign to their POW's :p (obviously not true about the Nilfgaardians, but advocate of the devil and all)

But that was a matter of cultural attitudes that to be captured or surrender was dishonorable and shameful, and death was preferable. You might instead cite Japanese civilians in places like Okinawa, where there were many suicides... but they did it for a mixture of the above or, in many cases, because of Imperial propaganda about the atrocities that would be visited on them if they had the misfortune to be captured (Imperial soldiers, who had actually committed any number of atrocities in Asia and the Pacific, basically just transposed their own acts onto what the American would do).

Here, when we're being told about how brutal the Nilfgaardians are, the camera depicts it all. They are barbarous, at least to those who fight rather than surrender.

35 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Didn't an elf speak of Calanthe and her kingdom whatever it's called treating them very very very badly?

Yes, although I think you know how society is able to put different groups in different boxes of acceptable behavior based on superficial and often arbitrary differences. The elves are a non-human species and are treated with a level of prejudice that the Cintrans don't treat most other humans with. Presumably what the Cintrans and other Nordlings (the term for those from the Northern kingdoms) don't want to grasp is that the Nilfgaardians are treating non-Nilfgaardians in a similar fashion to how they've treated non-humans.

Reading up a little on the wikis does make me realize one part of this war with Nilfgaard hasn't been touched on, I think, in the TV show:

Spoiler

Was there any reference to the fact that the Nilfgaardians were actively funding and supporting elven guerrilla groups to weaken the northern kingdoms from within? I feel like there wasn't, and I kind of wish there had been because it would have provided some more depth and complexity to the geopolitics of it all.

Also, Nilfgaard apparently has no particular animus to non-human species.

 

[Zorral]

But this is a television program, not the wiki.  Writers' JOB is to make this comprehensible to the general audience, not the specialty audience.

[Ran]

13 minutes ago, Zorral said:

But this is a television program, not the wiki.  Writers' JOB is to make this comprehensible to the general audience, not the specialty audience.

I understood most of this stuff without the wiki (not played the games or read the books). The Cintrans and everyone else act as if Nilfgaard is especially brutal, and this is shown. The elves are a persecuted race, and this is shown.

[Gigei]

The show needs to explain the elves. There's a reason why the first novel is titled Blood of Elves.

I reckon Season 1 just introduces all the three main characters and how they all got together but Season 2 needs to start to flesh out all of the various cliques' motivation and why Ciri is so special. Hence, an explanation of the elves in the Witcher 'verse.

As for Nilfgaard's motives, it can't be explained until a certain plot twist is revealed. That actually happened in the last book. At the moment, all the characters know at this point is that they are the usual expansionist imperialist power. I'm fine with it.

[Zorral]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

I understood most of this stuff without the wiki (not played the games or read the books). The Cintrans and everyone else act as if Nilfgaard is especially brutal, and this is shown. The elves are a persecuted race, and this is shown.

That may be so for you, w/o any help.  But it seems not so for a whole lot of other viewers.  Yes, the elves are persecuted and the Nilf or whatever do it too.  Look at what happens to the refugees in the elf camp.  Everybody dies.

That's all we know.  Both are equally evil for all the same reasons.  Elves don't win either way.

 

[Corvinus85]

I figured that the reason why the show was organized in this manner is to give each of the main characters their origin story, or better said, a good starting point to their story, like Geralt receiving the nickname of Butcher of Blaviken, and since these characters are decades in age differences, they went with this weird timelines mix. It could have been handled better, but I got most of it on first view, and when my brother watched it, and I re-watched some of the episodes with him, I paid more attention to the dialogue, which is often critical to understand not just the plot, but also the world-building.

[Veltigar]

14 hours ago, Ran said:

But that was a matter of cultural attitudes that to be captured or surrender was dishonorable and shameful, and death was preferable. You might instead cite Japanese civilians in places like Okinawa, where there were many suicides... but they did it for a mixture of the above or, in many cases, because of Imperial propaganda about the atrocities that would be visited on them if they had the misfortune to be captured (Imperial soldiers, who had actually committed any number of atrocities in Asia and the Pacific, basically just transposed their own acts onto what the American would do).

Here, when we're being told about how brutal the Nilfgaardians are, the camera depicts it all. They are barbarous, at least to those who fight rather than surrender.

I think that is key, we are being told how exceptionally brutal they are, but nothing on display strikes me as more brutal than you would expect for this kind of warfare. The average chevauchee was more than likely a lot more violent.

It's pretty clear that the Nilfgaardians are meant to be this brutal "jihadistic" force by the series, but the way their violence is depict right now it's pretty easy to argue the other side of the argument, namely that they aren't really that more brutal than other armies.

In fact, the worst atrocities described in the series, namely the babysmacking done to the Elves were performed by Calanthe's forces if I'm not mistaken with the timelines. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1 hour ago, Veltigar said:

I think that is key, we are being told how exceptionally brutal they are, but nothing on display strikes me as more brutal than you would expect for this kind of warfare. The average chevauchee was more than likely a lot more violent.

It's pretty clear that the Nilfgaardians are meant to be this brutal "jihadistic" force by the series, but the way their violence is depict right now it's pretty easy to argue the other side of the argument, namely that they aren't really that more brutal than other armies.

In fact, the worst atrocities described in the series, namely the babysmacking done to the Elves were performed by Calanthe's forces if I'm not mistaken with the timelines. 

The thing is: the viewers challenging the Designated Villains' villain status is not a bug, it's a feature. As the books progress, the "good" of the Good Kingdoms and the "evil" of the Evil Empire is being questioned more and more often, and I expect the same for the show. The good guys will do some shitty stuff, the bad guys will demonstrate some unexpected virtues.

Not unlike, say, ASoIaF.

[aceluby]

3 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

The thing is: the viewers challenging the Designated Villains' villain status is not a bug, it's a feature. As the books progress, the "good" of the Good Kingdoms and the "evil" of the Evil Empire is being questioned more and more often, and I expect the same for the show. The good guys will do some shitty stuff, the bad guys will demonstrate some unexpected virtues.

Not unlike, say, ASoIaF.

This is very clearly the case.  It's basically beaten over the head of the viewer that nobody is purely virtuous or evil.  It's one of the things I liked most about the show.

[Jen'ari]

I’ve finished it now and overall really enjoyed it, I’ve never read the books though and the only game I’ve played was The Witcher 3 because it came with my PS4, which,from what I can gather, is set in the future from where Season 1 of the TV series occurred.

[Zorral]

Like I said, it was like so many wars in which there isn't a right or wrong side -- it's powerful, entitled, already wealthy people fighting over who gets the most -- or just keeping score -- while everybody else pays for it with both blood and whatever little they had.

A Tolkienesque war of clearly good against clearly evil are few and far between.  (The Nazis made one, of course.) 

I kinda think the 'southern' Nilfs are Turks / Mongols / Tartars, etc.  Of course the north wasn't nice to Poland either, see the King of Sweden and the time the Poles designated as The Deluge.

 

 

[Jerol]

I am five episodes in and I'm hooked. This series is about 50% good and 50% OH COME ON! When my wife was hooked on Merlin I bitched that it was obviously aimed at children. The most salacious it got was Arthur taking off his shirt once per episode. This is often easily as cheesy as Merlin or even Xena. But there's all this gore and nudity and Geralt growling "fuck" whenever things go wrong. 

There is so much good cheese (Toss a Coin to Your Witcher) and then just OH COME ON cheese (The Hedgehog Knight). And what the hell kind of a name is Yennefer? Is that really Polish? I hope it is because the alternative is ridiculous. The Nilfs are pretty much cardboard baddies so far, as others have noted. Queen Badass was more like it - a possibly genocidal warrior queen with a soft spot for just being entertained. Henry Caville seems to nail Geralt, especially when he's all growly, been there done that stop whining about your precious kingdom. Ciri is boring but I imagine that will change. Yennefer has the most intriguing story line. There's some troubling issues with the amount of time she spends nude as opposed to the male characters. I am sure advocates for the disabled have some objections with her story but I think they never slack off on how broken she is, even though the outward appearance has changed. I want more Yennefer. I want her to kick some ass, take some names, throw down some magic that will BURN. 

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Jerol said:

And what the hell kind of a name is Yennefer? Is that really Polish?

It's basically a transliteration of how the English Jennifer is pronounced in Polish. Google tells me Ginewra is the Polish given name that more closely matches, the Polish version of Guinevere, which is the origin of "Jennifer".

[Gertrude]

5 hours ago, Jerol said:

And what the hell kind of a name is Yennefer?

And to add to Ran's explanation, Jennifer / Yennefer would sound 'exotic' to a slavic speaker. 

[Veltigar]

13 hours ago, Ran said:

It's basically a transliteration of how the English Jennifer is pronounced in Polish. Google tells me Ginewra is the Polish given name that more closely matches, the Polish version of Guinevere, which is the origin of "Jennifer".

so is Geralt their version of Arthur then?

[Ran]

42 minutes ago, Veltigar said:

so is Geralt their version of Arthur then?

No, it's just a name. Although...

 

Spoiler

Apparently a novel ends up involving Arthurian matters due to some cross-world magic. Sir Galahad apparently wanders in out of the mist to crash a wedding.