Military Strengths-2 and More!

[Free Northman Reborn]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Foot to horse is not foot to heavy cavalry though. Of the above only Robb's 12000 and Freys 4000 are 1:3 for certain. Tywin had plenty of light horse such as in Gregor's flank, Robb's 20000 includrd light cavalry as seen in Manderly's contingent.

Remember, Renly's 80000 host was 1:3 horse as well but had light horse, free riders...

Also remember Barristan says Rhaegar had 1 in 10 knights but the rest wasn't entirely foot. There were free riders and such as well.

We also see forces starting with 1:5 as well such as Caron-Dondarrion force of 4800 or even one that may have been Near 1:1, Florents starting with 2000 men having 700-800 cavalry(not specified if all were knights) survive even after the losses the Van survived.

That's why I explicitly stated I meant knights/lancers and not just horse to foot.

A big unanswered question in my mind is whether squires are counted as heavy cavalry or even just general cavalry in these armies. We see with Lady Webber’s small contingent of 6 knights and 6 squires as well as with Manderly’s 20 knights and 20 squires in the force that joined Robb, that they seem to form part of the cavalry count. They certainly don’t count as infantry, and I doubt they just hang with the camp followers during battle.

Because if they form part of the cavalry it could instantly reduce the Frey knights to 500 (with 500 squires brining their cavalry up to 1000), which would be a 1-6 ratio, later dropping closer to 1-10 once their reserves are raised.

The status of squires is therefore a significant point of clarification.

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Guys, where are Stannis' 10,000+ horse? Where is the largest cavalry force in the War of the Five Kings? It disappeared without a trace.

If plot-relevant details like that - and not just numbers tossed around by this or that fellow - can be changed on a whim (or quietly disappear) then there is really no reason to expect the author's works behind the scenes to paint a coherent picture of the military capabilities in his world.

It would have been easy as hell for Yandel to give a brief overview of the military capabilities of each of the Seven Kingdoms - historically and in their present state - so that we would actually get canonical information on that. But this wasn't done - and there was likely a reason for that.

I find it ironic ( and slightly bonkers) that one can dismiss the absolutely crucial issue of comparative military strengths as not worth analyzing, while poring over every useless detail of which Targaryen daughter, brother or uncle married which other Targeryen or obscure lord 200 years ago, down to arguing over where the wedding venue was, and other such trivial matters. And don’t even get me started on the apparently riveting practice of trying to build 200 year old famly trees of people who will never play a role in the main series.

Compared to that, understanding the balance of power from a military perspective is a highly significant endeavour.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

A big unanswered question in my mind is whether squires are counted as heavy cavalry or even just general cavalry in these armies. We see with Lady Webber’s small contingent of 6 knights and 6 squires as well as with Manderly’s 20 knights and 20 squires in the force that joined Robb, that they seem to form part of the cavalry count. They certainly don’t count as infantry, and I doubt they just hang with the camp followers during battle.

Squires wouldn't count as heavy cavalry, considering that most are knights in training and effectively serve their knightly masters as servants. They would certainly fight in battle, but not in the same capacity as a knight - or else there wouldn't be much difference between the two of them.

Of course, prince or great lord('s son) would definitely be in the same league as his knightly master, but that wouldn't be the case for most of the squires.

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I find it ironic ( and slightly bonkers) that one can dismiss the absolutely crucial issue of comparative military strengths as not worth analyzing, while poring over every useless detail of which Targaryen daughter, brother or uncle married which other Targeryen or obscure lord 200 years ago, down to arguing over where the wedding venue was, and other such trivial matters. And don’t even get me started on the apparently riveting practice of trying to build 200 year old famly trees of people who will never play a role in the main series.

LOL, are you actually telling me what to do and what to find interesting and noteworthy in a FICTIONAL FANTASY SERIES? Are you next telling what to find attractive, what to wear, or what cars to buy?

And just for the record - unlike you (who would likely be pretty happy if the next book was titled 'Winter is Coming' and were about the pointless family trees of a different family) I care pretty much about every aspect of this series, not just one single family/region. 

The point I was making up there is to point out that there is ample evidence that GRRM DOESN'T CARE about giving us coherent numbers or even coherent information on the military stuff in the main series. Renly needed to separate a good chunk from the main part of his army - hence the whole 20,000 cavalry riding to Storm's End. Later Stannis couldn't have 10,000+ cavalry in addition to his own horse, so the horses all disappeared. Later still most/all of his men getting away from the Blackwater are Florents, but then no Florents besides Ser Axell show up at the Wall.

This is not the kind of writing that would cause an impartial observer to conclude the author takes much thought to this military potential issue. Like any reasonably good writer, George allows the plot to drive his story, not hypothetical numbers on military potential he feels bound by for some reason.

If Stannis can lose thousands of horses between a few pages, then there is really no reason to take background details about military numbers as gospel. Just as we have no reason to assume we can use all the details given about the Red Keep or Winterfell or any other castle that has been described in detail to actually draw a map of the place - because the author keeps things vague so that he doesn't have to concern himself with that all that much.

There was a time he tried to handle passed time, distances, and the age of the main characters the same way - that no longer works, but there was never any attempt to actually proper organize the entire feudal hierarchy and military matters thing.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Lord Varys

Stannis' army didn't exactly disappear though; he split his army, infantry and cavalry which possibly had horse archersand mounted crossbowman and thelike. After the battle the survivors were taken by Joff.

Also, Reach likely  left knights behind in field of fire but "all the chivalry of the south" was with Renly and that amounted to just 10000 including many Stormlanders. Since lords joined Renly as they progressed, there were surely some that's not in the count but all the ones that mattered have joined already.

I think the extremely high number of knights we see with Tywin was special to him; Tywin's father was only able to send 1000 knights with 10000 others to stepstones and Tywin himself had just 500 knights to 3000 foot when he marched on Reynes and Tarbecks. We see Kevan alone feeding 200 knights. I'm certain Loren's brother or uncle didn't have near as many knights as house Karstark. Tywin fields this many knights because of Reyne-Tarbecks it seems.

 

 

@Free Northman Reborn

I knight should be a heavy lancer but Freys who we were told had 1000 KNIGHTS, not horse and 3000 foot later having light horse in the mix makes me wonder if it is sometimes used for all the horseman and not specifically knights, just as lord is sometimes used for landed knights as well.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Lord Varys

Stannis' army didn't exactly disappear though; he split his army, infantry and cavalry which possibly had horse archersand mounted crossbowman and thelike. After the battle the survivors were taken by Joff.

Also, Reach likely  left knights behind in field of fire but "all the chivalry of the south" was with Renly and that amounted to just 10000 including many Stormlanders. Since lords joined Renly as they progressed, there were surely some that's not in the count but all the ones that mattered have joined already.

I think the extremely high number of knights we see with Tywin was special to him; Tywin's father was only able to send 1000 knights with 10000 others to stepstones and Tywin himself had just 500 knights to 3000 foot when he marched on Reynes and Tarbecks. We see Kevan alone feeding 200 knights. I'm certain Loren's brother or uncle didn't have near as many knights as house Karstark. Tywin fields this many knights because of Reyne-Tarbecks it seems.

 

 

@Free Northman Reborn

I knight should be a heavy lancer but Freys who we were told had 1000 KNIGHTS, not horse and 3000 foot later having light horse in the mix makes me wonder if it is sometimes used for all the horseman and not specifically knights, just as lord is sometimes used for landed knights as well.

 

Yes. The Freys had 1000 horse and 3000 infantry. I find it unlikely that another 1000 mounted, armed squires were just ignored in this count. They were in there, and they weren’t part of the infantry, that’s for sure. So that only leaves them being amongst the 1000 cavalry.

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yes. The Freys had 1000 horse and 3000 infantry. I find it unlikely that another 1000 mounted, armed squires were just ignored in this count. They were in there, and they weren’t part of the infantry, that’s for sure. So that only leaves them being amongst the 1000 cavalry.

So this means a Knight is also a general term encompassing all thos fighting on foot, that is unless we are given a more detailed breakdown or take a specific look at it. Much the same with infantry being called swords or spears in general despite having pikes, axes, bows etc. as well. 

 

I don't think Robb's first 4300-4400 horse were anything but lancers as Luwin specifically says armored lancers and not horse. but for comparison Arya says Freys brought 1500 "swords" to Harrenhal and 2000 Frey "spears" siege Riverrun. Obviously, these forces are not entirely spearmen or swordsmen. but again for comparison, Tallhart garrison Robb left behind was given a specific breakdown of 200 swords and 200 bows.

 

also a small thing not related to the current discussion but the previous one;

Quote

"Dare I ask how many swords come with your bride, Robb?"

"Fifty. A dozen knights." His voice was glum, as well it might be. When the marriage contract had been made at the Twins, old Lord Walder Frey had sent Robb off with a thousand mounted knights and near three thousand foot. "Jeyne is bright as well as beautiful. And kind as well. She has a gentle heart."

Obviously this comes from the garrison and perhaps captives taken unless Westerling men decided to leave Tywin's or Forley Prester's hosts, which won't be the case. So, even the impoverished Westerlings have a dozen knights and that is just what they left for the garrison,

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Lord Varys

Stannis' army didn't exactly disappear though; he split his army, infantry and cavalry which possibly had horse archersand mounted crossbowman and thelike. After the battle the survivors were taken by Joff.

But we never get the implication that the men Stannis got from Renly were all horse. Stannis' infantry would have been only his own men. Renly didn't bring one infantry man with him to Storm's End.

Overall, common sense dictates that Stannis would have used a completely different strategy if he had had 10,000+ horse. For one, there would have been a decent chance to take that army and deal with/subdue Renly's men down at Bitterbridge. After all, what could the tens of thousands of foot do but yield or run if 10,000+ horse descended on them?

The actual Battle of the Blackwater would have also worked differently. Stannis having so many horse would have made his army much more mobile and essentially also 

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also, Reach likely  left knights behind in field of fire but "all the chivalry of the south" was with Renly and that amounted to just 10000 including many Stormlanders. Since lords joined Renly as they progressed, there were surely some that's not in the count but all the ones that mattered have joined already.

Renly had 20,000 horse at Storm's End. A good portion of them, I think around a third, left with Loras and returned to Bitterbridge, but the rest remained there.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I think the extremely high number of knights we see with Tywin was special to him; Tywin's father was only able to send 1000 knights with 10000 others to stepstones and Tywin himself had just 500 knights to 3000 foot when he marched on Reynes and Tarbecks. We see Kevan alone feeding 200 knights. I'm certain Loren's brother or uncle didn't have near as many knights as house Karstark. Tywin fields this many knights because of Reyne-Tarbecks it seems.

Again, Lord Tymond Lannister brings 300 retainers with him to the Great Council, and Lord Matthos Tyrell 500. There are servants and squires and pages, etc. among them, of course, but those are the personal retinues of those lords, not the retinue of them and their bannermen. That gives us an indication how many men a Lord of Casterly Rock or a Lord of Highgarden walks around with in peace time simply to impress or outdo his peers.

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

I knight should be a heavy lancer but Freys who we were told had 1000 KNIGHTS, not horse and 3000 foot later having light horse in the mix makes me wonder if it is sometimes used for all the horseman and not specifically knights, just as lord is sometimes used for landed knights as well.

See above. There is no coherency to any of that. If men can disappear

[Corvo the Crow]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But we never get the implication that the men Stannis got from Renly were all horse. Stannis' infantry would have been only his own men. Renly didn't bring one infantry man with him to Storm's End.

Umm... we are clearly told that Renly's unwilling legacy to his brother is all the horse he brought and he came with horsr alone.

Loras and co took a fifth of the knights, whether that means a fifth of only the kniggts and 2000 or a fifth of the 20000 horse and 4000, Im not sure.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Umm... we are clearly told that Renly's unwilling legacy to his brother is all the horse he brought and he came with horsr alone.

Loras and co took a fifth of the knights, whether that means a fifth of only the kniggts and 2000 or a fifth of the 20000 horse and 4000, Im not sure.

Didn't Loras, Tarly, etc. not march away with about 6,000-7,000 men? Then I'm misremembering stuff there.

In any case 15,000+ horse for Stannis would make him insanely powerful and that simply doesn't reflect in the way the story is written. Just as there is little indication that Robb has basically only horse in his army or that Roose essentially has no horse in his army, etc.

In addition, so many of Renly's horse would basically make up most of the chivalry and the nobility of the Reach. But we don't get a lot of prominent names being with Stannis after Storm's End. There is simply not much depth to this entire thing, nor to the military situation at KL after the Blackwater. Where did all those 80,000+ men go? Half of the Reach troops left with Garlan and Olenna, but where are the Stormlanders from Renly's former army? Where are all the Westermen? Some leave with Tywin's corpse but those are fewer than the men that arrived with him in ACoK.

[Free Northman Reborn]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Didn't Loras, Tarly, etc. not march away with about 6,000-7,000 men? Then I'm misremembering stuff there.

In any case 15,000+ horse for Stannis would make him insanely powerful and that simply doesn't reflect in the way the story is written. Just as there is little indication that Robb has basically only horse in his army or that Roose essentially has no horse in his army, etc.

In addition, so many of Renly's horse would basically make up most of the chivalry and the nobility of the Reach. But we don't get a lot of prominent names being with Stannis after Storm's End. There is simply not much depth to this entire thing, nor to the military situation at KL after the Blackwater. Where did all those 80,000+ men go? Half of the Reach troops left with Garlan and Olenna, but where are the Stormlanders from Renly's former army? Where are all the Westermen? Some leave with Tywin's corpse but those are fewer than the men that arrived with him in ACoK.

You seem to be using the fact that there are troop movements offscreen to try and discredit actual troop numbers confirmed onscreen.

Where Renly’s horse went is immaterial. They could be in Ashaii for all we know. The important thing is that he had 20k horse originally. Not what happened to them between one chapter and the next. Incomplete information is a far cry from inconsistant information.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

You seem to be using the fact that there are troop movements offscreen to try and discredit actual troop numbers confirmed onscreen.

Where Renly’s horse went is immaterial. They could be in Ashaii for all we know. The important thing is that he had 20k horse originally. Not what happened to them between one chapter and the next. Incomplete information is a far cry from inconsistant information.

It is if the author doesn't give the impression that they are still there when they should still be there.

It also shows that the author doesn't actually care to give a consistent image of troop movements - which would be important if we were to believe he cared as much about that as he cares about the plot. You can compare the numbers thing to the careful planning George gives to plots spanning multiple books, characterization of key figures, and the like.

Military numbers are just not that important, nor is there any indication that there is a consistent image given in this area throughout the series (e.g. the apparently changed military capabilities of Dorne).

[Free Northman Reborn]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is if the author doesn't give the impression that they are still there when they should still be there.

It also shows that the author doesn't actually care to give a consistent image of troop movements - which would be important if we were to believe he cared as much about that as he cares about the plot. You can compare the numbers thing to the careful planning George gives to plots spanning multiple books, characterization of key figures, and the like.

Military numbers are just not that important, nor is there any indication that there is a consistent image given in this area throughout the series (e.g. the apparently changed military capabilities of Dorne).

To the contrary. How many men did Stannis have at the Blackwater? How many foot? How many horse? We don't know. In fact, we are never told. The "impression" you carry on about is just that. Your personal impression, based on zero numbers provided for the battle.

As for Dorne's change in military strength: That in fact shows very deliberate thought on the strength Dorne should have compared to other regions, including a detailed back story explanation on why the original numbers were incorrectly stated by certain characters.

 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

To the contrary. How many men did Stannis have at the Blackwater? How many foot? How many horse? We don't know. In fact, we are never told. The "impression" you carry on about is just that. Your personal impression, based on zero numbers provided for the battle.

What are you talking about? We know how many men Stannis had before and after he gained about 15,000+ horse from Renly.

3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for Dorne's change in military strength: That in fact shows very deliberate thought on the strength Dorne should have compared to other regions, including a detailed back story explanation on why the original numbers were incorrectly stated by certain characters.

That's a retcon. It shows George does make up things and changes them as he goes along. If he had had a clear picture of the military capabilities of the various houses and regions this issue would have never come up.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

What are you talking about? We know how many men Stannis had before and after he gained about 15,000+ horse from Renly.

That's a retcon. It shows George does make up things and changes them as he goes along. If he had had a clear picture of the military capabilities of the various houses and regions this issue would have never come up.

We know how many joined him when Renly was killed. Did they all stay? Did more trickle in afterward? Did some desert him? We are never explicitly told how many were at the Blackwater. However, your argument seems to be a nebulous "If he had 15000 cavalry, he should have done better", or something along those lines. Why? Tywin's relief force had something like 80,000 men.

As for the retcon. Do you really think Martin had the whole Westeros fleshed out and solidly established from the start? That he never changes his mind? If so, you are misguided. The retcon STRENGTHENS the argument that he puts significant thought into the numbers, rather than weakening it.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for the retcon. Do you really think Martin had the whole Westeros fleshed out and solidly established from the start? That he never changes his mind? If so, you are misguided. The retcon STRENGTHENS the argument that he puts significant thought into the numbers, rather than weakening it.

How does George making mistakes and changing things confirm other things in that general field are accurate? This actually weakens that idea.

The same for the fact that George rarely gives proper feudal hierarchy information or delves deeply into the question where the various people in service of this or that lord come from.

We are supposed to get a blurred image of how the society works, but no details. And we still don't have many such details, despite the fact that a lot of worldbuilding is going on.

TWoIaF could have contained political maps depicting the lands and and holdings of the greater houses, for example. There is a reason why we are not getting any of this. We are not supposed to know stuff like this - and George doesn't care about inventing details like that.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:59 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

A big unanswered question in my mind is whether squires are counted as heavy cavalry or even just general cavalry in these armies.

 

Well, we only have real world examples to help us try to figure that out. As has been noted by others, GRRM is not really exact on that type of stuff all of the time.

Historically, yes the squire of a knight would be part of the regular (heavy) cavalry, as would all the knights and lords and their retainers, and would be under a single commander. Anyone else who could field a horse and arms (like the sergeant class) would be placed into the irregular (light) cavalry and usually would be part of the van under a different commander and also be responsible for scouting and reconnaissance duties as well as being reserves. All other professional foot soldiers (sergeants) and the conscripts from the commons would be placed into the infantry under a third commander.

[Free Northman Reborn]

3 hours ago, Trefayne said:

 

Well, we only have real world examples to help us try to figure that out. As has been noted by others, GRRM is not really exact on that type of stuff all of the time.

Historically, yes the squire of a knight would be part of the regular (heavy) cavalry, as would all the knights and lords and their retainers, and would be under a single commander. Anyone else who could field a horse and arms (like the sergeant class) would be placed into the irregular (light) cavalry and usually would be part of the van under a different commander and also be responsible for scouting and reconnaissance duties as well as being reserves. All other professional foot soldiers (sergeants) and the conscripts from the commons would be placed into the infantry under a third commander.

Yes. I suspect if someone asked George where the squires were in the Frey 4000 strong host he would think a bit and then say they were part of the 1000 cavalry. Also makes it more consistent. The Freys having 20% of the knights of the entire Field of Fire seems not to fit.

[Corvo the Crow]

 

Something on Dorne

 

Quote

From Dorne, in defense of Princess Elia, ten thousand spears came over the Boneway and marched to King's Landing to bolster the host that Rhaegar was raising.

Ten thousand Dornishmen marching to KL

 

Quote

He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King's Landing. Beneath Baelor's Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

Lewyn Martell is sent to take control of them, not an important bit but here it is anyway.

 

Quote

"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

Cersei impiles fights happened in Dorne as well.

 

Quote

The king frowned. "A knife, perhaps. A good sharp one, and a bold man to wield it."

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

We know Ned peacefully lifted the siege of SE, so these battles must have happened elsewhere. With Mace surrendering, it could only be Dorne.

 

So, Ned apparently fought some battles in Dorne. I think this is a hint towards that sending 10000 men away made Dorne so weak they were unable to defeat Ned's host and prevent him from moving around even in their home terrain.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yes. I suspect if someone asked George where the squires were in the Frey 4000 strong host he would think a bit and then say they were part of the 1000 cavalry. Also makes it more consistent. The Freys having 20% of the knights of the entire Field of Fire seems not to fit.

 

In a host of 1000 regular cavalry only about 200-250 would be nobles or gentry. The rest would, on average, be squires and retainers; maybe with a few well heeled mercenaries in there if the commander wasn't too snobby.

[Lord Varys]

As for Dorne, those 10,000 spears are likely not all spears. Or do we believe Lewyn Martell was the only knight among them?

11 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Well, we only have real world examples to help us try to figure that out. As has been noted by others, GRRM is not really exact on that type of stuff all of the time.

Historically, yes the squire of a knight would be part of the regular (heavy) cavalry, as would all the knights and lords and their retainers, and would be under a single commander.

George's squires are mostly young boys and act as servants of their masters. This is not exclusive, as the example of Arstan Whitebeard shows, but one doesn't see Podrick Payne, Olyvar Frey/Rollam Westerling, Egg, etc. participate in a battle as heavy horse.

This doesn't mean that squires who never make it to knighthood could not eventually become quasi-knights in battle, serving at the side of the knights, but one does not expect such men to serve in the retinue of great/wealthy lords/landed knights, considering that such men would likely actually knight such men if they have the skill set to serve as proper knights.

In that sense one expects that grizzled old squires are more in the retinue of very small petty lords and knights who really can't afford knighting their squires.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

George's squires are mostly young boys and act as servants of their masters. This is not exclusive, as the example of Arstan Whitebeard shows, but one doesn't see Podrick Payne, Olyvar Frey/Rollam Westerling, Egg, etc. participate in a battle as heavy horse.

This doesn't mean that squires who never make it to knighthood could not eventually become quasi-knights in battle, serving at the side of the knights, but one does not expect such men to serve in the retinue of great/wealthy lords/landed knights, considering that such men would likely actually knight such men if they have the skill set to serve as proper knights.

In that sense one expects that grizzled old squires are more in the retinue of very small petty lords and knights who really can't afford knighting their squires.

 

Yes, GRRM does tend to have the classic, romantic view of squires. And he can handle them as he pleases, but it'd be nice to see one as a standard bearer at least. I'll have to read it again to see if there are any references to squires dying in battles or whatnot.

Pod went where Tyrion went and the only battle recount we get was on the Blackwater when they were afoot. I can't remember at this point if Pod was even with Tyrion yet when he was in the vanguard. I don't think he was(?) The point is that, Pod as squire, was right behind his charge; where he would always be.

That being said, historically, professional squires were a class of commoner (lower middle class) and soldier. Basically, you could think of them like a good golf caddy. Are you going to take the green kid who will most probably wet his breeches at the first sight of blood or a professional veteran of a dozen battles? Yes, younger royal and noble boys were squired to royals and nobles who could give them proper training and a leg up socially while keeping an eye on them, but your basic non-landed knight/retainer usually had to hire his help. In this instance a good professional squire was your best option.