Military Strengths-2 and More!

[Free Northman Reborn]

6 minutes ago, Trefayne said:

 

Yes, GRRM does tend to have the classic, romantic view of squires. And he can handle them as he pleases, but it'd be nice to see one as a standard bearer at least. I'll have to read it again to see if there are any references to squires dying in battles or whatnot.

Pod went where Tyrion went and the only battle recount we get was on the Blackwater when they were afoot. I can't remember at this point if Pod was even with Tyrion yet when he was in the vanguard. I don't think he was(?) The point is that, Pod as squire, was right behind his charge; where he would always be.

That being said, historically, professional squires were a class of commoner (lower middle class) and soldier. Basically, you could think of them like a good golf caddy. Are you going to take the green kid who will most probably wet his breeches at the first sight of blood or a professional veteran of a dozen battles? Yes, younger royal and noble boys were squired to royals and nobles who could give them proper training and a leg up socially while keeping an eye on them, but your basic non-landed knight/retainer usually had to hire his help. In this instance a good professional squire was your best option.

In tSS Lady Webber’s force is described as 6 knights and their 6 squires, Ser Lucas Inchfield and 20 crossbowmen. 33 men in all, Martin states. So in this case the squires are all quite clearly counted as part of the armed force. Same with the twenty odd Manderly knights and their squires that join Robb. Again, clearly part of the mounted force.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In tSS Lady Webber’s force is described as 6 knights and their 6 squires, Ser Lucas Inchfield and 20 crossbowmen. 33 men in all, Martin states. So in this case the squires are all quite clearly counted as part of the armed force. Same with the twenty odd Manderly knights and their squires that join Robb. Again, clearly part of the mounted force.

Do you have a description of Lady Webber's squires?

And do you know that Lady Rohanne just showed there up in force to crush the pathetic force of 1-3 proper combatants who she expected to be attended by a dozen or so peasants with sticks? Her crossbowmen alone could have put them all down, meaning those squires could have all been young boys. And young boys simply are not heavy horse.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

4 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

In tSS Lady Webber’s force is described as 6 knights and their 6 squires, Ser Lucas Inchfield and 20 crossbowmen. 33 men in all, Martin states. So in this case the squires are all quite clearly counted as part of the armed force. Same with the twenty odd Manderly knights and their squires that join Robb. Again, clearly part of the mounted force.

 

I guess the real question in that example is why Ser Lucas couldn't find a squire!

[Free Northman Reborn]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Do you have a description of Lady Webber's squires?

And do you know that Lady Rohanne just showed there up in force to crush the pathetic force of 1-3 proper combatants who she expected to be attended by a dozen or so peasants with sticks? Her crossbowmen alone could have put them all down, meaning those squires could have all been young boys. And young boys simply are not heavy horse.

“There were 33 fighting men all told”, according to Dunk.

Those squires were no kids or mere servants. They were fighting men. Spelled out for us in black and white.

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

“There were 33 fighting men all told”, according to Dunk.

Those squires were no kids or mere servants. They were fighting men. Spelled out for us in black and white.

Well, I guess then Egg is also a fighting man, no?

[Three-Fingered Pete]

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I guess then Egg is also a fighting man, no?

 

Well, Egg's a special case.

Perhaps you are conflating two different systems to reach the same goal? For a male of a hereditary line, being knighted was more or less a formality that they went through to be inducted into a warrior band of brotherhood. Knights only liked to be commanded by fellow knights, regardless of class distinctions. They wanted to know that you knew what you were doing before handing their life over to you. Now, as mostly a formality, the "unworthy" occasionally slipped through, but rank hath its privileges and they were knighted anyway.

For a commoner, getting knighted was a great achievement and not lightly bestowed. A man could fight bravely and competently in service to his lord and king all his life and never get knighted. On average, you had to do something pretty noteworthy to get the attention of the nobility. Fighting hard and well for your liege was expected and received no special accolades from the top tier.

[The Wondering Wolf]

6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

So, Ned apparently fought some battles in Dorne.

No.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Well, Egg's a special case.

That was supposed to be irony referring to the fact that the prevalence of youths/children as knights makes it not all that likely that the men counted as men were proper adults.

8 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Perhaps you are conflating two different systems to reach the same goal? For a male of a hereditary line, being knighted was more or less a formality that they went through to be inducted into a warrior band of brotherhood. Knights only liked to be commanded by fellow knights, regardless of class distinctions. They wanted to know that you knew what you were doing before handing their life over to you. Now, as mostly a formality, the "unworthy" occasionally slipped through, but rank hath its privileges and they were knighted anyway.

Sure, it is remarked upon as unusual that Tytos Lannister never became a knight.

8 hours ago, Trefayne said:

For a commoner, getting knighted was a great achievement and not lightly bestowed. A man could fight bravely and competently in service to his lord and king all his life and never get knighted. On average, you had to do something pretty noteworthy to get the attention of the nobility. Fighting hard and well for your liege was expected and received no special accolades from the top tier.

I'm with you that the lesser knights - hedge knights, very poor landed knights, tourney knights, and the like - likely picked their squires the way Ser Arlan did. And, yes, such men most likely did not really their knighthoods unless they did something really noteworthy, courageous, etc.

However, the whole romantic aspect of knighthood is really an integral part of the series. A knight can make a knight in this world - and does. We see that with Ser Glendon Ball's knighthood, Osmund Kettleblack's rise to knighthood, Ser Perkin's 'gutter knights', etc. The title of knight as such is separate from lands and wealth and feudal power.

The example of Bronn and others also show how men who excel in battle and war are reward with a proper knighthood. However, a knighthood isn't the same as an introduction into the noble class. Only actual landowners can be counted among those.

But if we take 'knight' as a military category seriously - meaning a mounted man in proper armor, with an armored war horse and good weaponry - then there is an enormous difference between such proper knights and hedge knights and other men which have nothing besides 'a Ser' before their name.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

However, the whole romantic aspect of knighthood is really an integral part of the series. A knight can make a knight in this world - and does. We see that with Ser Glendon Ball's knighthood, Osmund Kettleblack's rise to knighthood, Ser Perkin's 'gutter knights', etc. The title of knight as such is separate from lands and wealth and feudal power.

 

A knight could make a knight in our history too, which is why they were very particular about who they let in the club. It usually required several reliable witnesses, i.e. other knights, nobles, to the deed to agree to the dubbing or there would be questions asked. Dunk encounters this when he is trying to get someone to vouch for him so he can join the lists at Ashford.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The example of Bronn and others also show how men who excel in battle and war are reward with a proper knighthood. However, a knighthood isn't the same as an introduction into the noble class. Only actual landowners can be counted among those.

 

Bronn had the good fortune to get well connected and to know too much to be disregarded. It still didn't stop Cersei from trying to rid herself of him.

Well, any freeman and above can own land. The nobility/gentry part comes in the governance and administration of the land either by temporal appointment or heredity.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But if we take 'knight' as a military category seriously - meaning a mounted man in proper armor, with an armored war horse and good weaponry - then there is an enormous difference between such proper knights and hedge knights and other men which have nothing besides 'a Ser' before their name.

 

Not necessarily. Good equipment is just a matter of funds and the means to upkeep your arms, armor and mount.  Ser Uthor Underleaf did just fine this way and was genuinely put out that Dunk couldn't ransom his kit since he needed the money, not the equipment. The difference is only in the social standing of each man.

From what I can surmise, GRRM uses hedge knights as his knight bachelor class, but his retainer knights/men-at-arms seem to work just like they did in our history. They are offered a commission and if they accept they swear fealty to the lord or knight and are then assigned duties or lands to oversee. This ties them to a particular house and their fortunes rise and fall with it, unless they break their oath and abandon their liege, which has obvious consequences, like with Sandor Clegane.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So, lets do a little math. There seems to be no age restriction after which squires automatically become knights. In fact, most likely some remain squires their whole lives. So let’s say squires range in age from twelve to their mid forties. That’s a range of roughly  30 years. (Does that sound about right?)

16 seems to be a good age by which a man is deemd of fighting age. Let’s also assume that there are more young squires than old squires, so the 12-16 age group will likely be over represented. Lets make it by a factor of two. So double it as a precentage of the likely age ramge, for good measure. That gives you at most a quarter of all squires being under the age of 16. I have a feeling it is probably even less than that, but let’s go with a quarter for sake of argument. 

That means that about 75% of squires will be of fighting age.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

25 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

So, lets do a little math. There seems to be no age restriction after which squires automatically become knights. In fact, most likely some remain squires their whole lives. So let’s say squires range in age from twelve to their mid forties. That’s a range of roughly  30 years. (Does that sound about right?)

16 seems to be a good age by which a man is deemd of fighting age. Let’s also assume that there are more young squires than old squires, so the 12-16 age group will likely be over represented. Lets make it by a factor of two. So double it as a precentage of the likely age ramge, for good measure. That gives you at most a quarter of all squires being under the age of 16. I have a feeling it is probably even less than that, but let’s go with a quarter for sake of argument. 

That means that about 75% of squires will be of fighting age.

 

That seems about right. Squires not of fighting age would be used as messengers and standard bearers since it was considered bad form to kill them as they were unarmed. This didn't stop them from getting killed though.

[Corvo the Crow]

21 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

No.

 

Even worse than I thought. He is able to travel the pass unopposed.

[Lord Varys]

We just don't know what's about right in this regard.

The reason that has to give one pause that all that many commoners can afford proper armor, weapons, and horses is the fact that Dunk tells us how long he could live from the coin he got for one of Arlan's horses he sold at Ashford.

Granted, rich merchants can even employ knights, so that's no big deal, but we have next to no idea how society is structured on the commoner level. How many wealthy commoners (merchants) are there? How large is the percentage of men who can afford to sell their skills at arms to their betters? We just don't know.

Overall one should also keep the fact in mind that war isn't exactly a common occurrence in Westeros since the Conquest. Prior to that a large chunk of the men of fighting age would have been training at arms and actually involve themselves constantly in war, especially those along the borders of the Seven Kingdoms (that would have been especially the case during the reigns of Jaehaerys I and Viserys I). That might also be an explanation why not as many men seem to have fought in the Dance that could have, despite the fact that the population must have increased.

The Targaryens commanded the allegiance of the entire continent, and could thus rely on all the lords and knights of the Realm. That makes for tremendous resources even if vast regions decided to demilitarize.

Remnants of that are mentioned in TWoIaF with the very strong martial culture (stronger than anywhere else) in the Dornish Marches (both in the Reach and the Stormlands part). Things like that would have been very common in all the other kingdoms. Vice versa, the tower of joy seems to be an abandoned watchtower back from the days when Dorne still had to defend its borders against the Reach.

And it is that what gave the Osgreys of old glory and prestige, not so much that they were such a great house back then. They were in charge of the defense of the northern Reach against the Westermen. There is no indication that they were great lords, just that they once fought many a battle and excelled at some of those. But we do know that kings can grant titles and offices without actually giving you a great lordship or even land (e.g. the various courtesy lords on the Small Council or Brynden Tully as Robb's Warden of the Southern Marches, a title that makes him supreme commander of Robb's men in the Riverlands without actually granting him any lands or lordships).

In local areas men-at-arms and the like would be needed to keep the peace, and hunt outlaws when the need arose, but vast regions of Westeros would no longer have the same need to prepare for war they did in the old days. Just think about the southern reaches of the North, the north of the Riverlands, the borderlands between the Reach, the West, the Riverlands, and the Stormlands. The only places where men needed to remain as sharp as ever would have been the Dornish Marches (at least until the union), the Vale (due to the clansmen), the northern parts of the North (wildling raids) and in various coastal regions (due to Ironborn raidings and/or other foreign attacks).

One assumes that the chivalric culture turned more to the tourney as sport - and the preparation for that - than as a means to use it as a training ground for actual battles.

Because in the end - aside from the many Dornish Wars - there was no actual great war of conquest between the Seven Kingdoms and any other nation since the Conquest. All wars they had were civil wars and rebellions, and aside from the Dance and Robert's Rebellion they were pretty one-sided (aside from, perhaps, the first Blackfyre Rebellion).

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Trefayne said:

A knight could make a knight in our history too, which is why they were very particular about who they let in the club. It usually required several reliable witnesses, i.e. other knights, nobles, to the deed to agree to the dubbing or there would be questions asked. Dunk encounters this when he is trying to get someone to vouch for him so he can join the lists at Ashford.

The particularity seems to be less of an issue in Westeros than it is in our world - when Jaime questions Osmund Kettleblack about his knighthood it doesn't seem likely he can cite any living witnesses for that, either.

12 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Bronn had the good fortune to get well connected and to know too much to be disregarded. It still didn't stop Cersei from trying to rid herself of him.

It doesn't seem to be too unusual a career, however.

12 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Well, any freeman and above can own land. The nobility/gentry part comes in the governance and administration of the land either by temporal appointment or heredity.

I meant that land does not necessarily come with a knighthood, and it might be that a landed knight (whose lands are passed on to his eldest son like a proper lordship) is different from just a yeoman or rich merchant or peasant who owns some land and then buys himself (or otherwise acquires) a knighthood. I'm not sure such shenanigans would suddenly make him part of the illustrious club of the actual nobility.

If you gain your knighthood by a great lord or king and are then awarded with a tract of land by that lord or king - like Davos is - then you can hope to enter into the club.

You certainly can always marry into noble houses (like the Spicers did, who were basically nothing but rich merchants prior to Sybell's marriage to Lord Westerling) but that's a different way of rising higher, and it does not necessarily lead to the father/brother of such a lucky bride to gain titles (one doesn't have to think of Barry Lyndon to know what I mean there ;-)).

12 hours ago, Trefayne said:

Not necessarily. Good equipment is just a matter of funds and the means to upkeep your arms, armor and mount.  Ser Uthor Underleaf did just fine this way and was genuinely put out that Dunk couldn't ransom his kit since he needed the money, not the equipment. The difference is only in the social standing of each man.

Uthor is successful at what he does. Dunk is not. Kyle the Cat neither, actually. To follow in Uthor's footsteps one has to have sufficient funds to start a career in addition to proper training at arms, etc. Luck certainly can help you, but if we imagine Uthor as a man starting at the same level as Dunk he would have mostly ended as a beggar in any realistic scenario - he must have had sufficient funds to be able to survive some defeats in the lists but also the occasional loss at wagering.

12 hours ago, Trefayne said:

From what I can surmise, GRRM uses hedge knights as his knight bachelor class, but his retainer knights/men-at-arms seem to work just like they did in our history. They are offered a commission and if they accept they swear fealty to the lord or knight and are then assigned duties or lands to oversee. This ties them to a particular house and their fortunes rise and fall with it, unless they break their oath and abandon their liege, which has obvious consequences, like with Sandor Clegane.

There has to be some difference between household knights and sworn swords. No idea what exactly that is, but it implies a more intimate connection between the household knight and his lord than the sworn sword thing does. The latter is temporary agreement, not to mention far less prestigious in the grand scale of things.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We just don't know what's about right in this regard.

snip

Lots of good points.

/snip

 

Good analysis. Westeros did not have the three to four hundred years of constant warfare that England and Europe did. In our history, organized tourneys came about as a way to keep vassals from fighting with each other between wars and depleting your own fighting force. They would go out into the fields and bash on each other anyway just to keep in practice, so some bright bulb realized it was better to regulate them rather than let them kill each other. Rules and etiquette of mock battle were imposed and safety measures put in place such as breakaway lances, specific jousting armors and saddles and putting a formal barrier between mounts during a tilt to ensure that the horses didn't collide. Originally, there was nothing between them. Then a rope was placed, and finally, a wooden fence.

It probably started that way in Westerosi history, but after three centuries it seems more in the entertainment area at the time of our stories. People seem more involved with how much it will cost and the bother of it all rather than the martial aspect of it. Even Dunk isn't really looking for glory in that sense. His motivation is mostly economical at the time as well. He wants to get noticed so he might hook a commission with a stable house.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It doesn't seem to be too unusual a career, however.

 

The career isn't unusual, but the outcome was atypical.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I meant that land does not necessarily come with a knighthood, and it might be that a landed knight (whose lands are passed on to his eldest son like a proper lordship) is different from just a yeoman or rich merchant or peasant who owns some land and then buys himself (or otherwise acquires) a knighthood. I'm not sure such shenanigans would suddenly make him part of the illustrious club of the actual nobility.

If you gain your knighthood by a great lord or king and are then awarded with a tract of land by that lord or king - like Davos is - then you can hope to enter into the club.

You certainly can always marry into noble houses (like the Spicers did, who were basically nothing but rich merchants prior to Sybell's marriage to Lord Westerling) but that's a different way of rising higher, and it does not necessarily lead to the father/brother of such a lucky bride to gain titles (one doesn't have to think of Barry Lyndon to know what I mean there ;-)).

 

Wealth, hereditary title and land ownership are all mutually exclusive things. One can have one or two without the other(s). There were dirt poor landowners who eked out a living on their small plot and wealthy merchants who were landless (usually due to the fact that they moved around so much that there was no point to land ownership until retirement). There were also poor nobles with just their title to use as leverage to beg or borrow a living. Usually, title and wealth and land ownership do go hand in hand, but they are not guaranteed.

Davos did get to enter the club, but you see how poorly he is regarded by most of the older houses. It will take a few generations for that sentiment to wear off, assuming his house survives the current conflicts.

Socially, buying a title was even worse than being up-jumped like Davos. Unless you were using the newfound wealth to fund a successful military campaign, your house might not ever get rid of that "distinction".

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Uthor is successful at what he does. Dunk is not. Kyle the Cat neither, actually. To follow in Uthor's footsteps one has to have sufficient funds to start a career in addition to proper training at arms, etc. Luck certainly can help you, but if we imagine Uthor as a man starting at the same level as Dunk he would have mostly ended as a beggar in any realistic scenario - he must have had sufficient funds to be able to survive some defeats in the lists but also the occasional loss at wagering.

 

Or Ser Uthor was just lucky in his first tilt, like Dunk hoped to be, and rallied that into a firm nest egg. You have to admit, the guy has a brain for business. By the point we encounter him, he is juicing the lists in his favor. He's worked the system. Dunk could have learned a lot from him.

 

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There has to be some difference between household knights and sworn swords. No idea what exactly that is, but it implies a more intimate connection between the household knight and his lord than the sworn sword thing does. The latter is temporary agreement, not to mention far less prestigious in the grand scale of things.

 

Well, there are employees and then there are your friends. As an example, I ask you to remember that scene in Braveheart where William Wallace gets knighted. He is instructed to choose his captains. He, of course, chooses his best companions; those he trusts with his life. These are his "household" knights. A "sworn sword" could mean anything from a true vassal lord or knight that is obligated by rank and royal decree to show you fealty to your basic guardsman who you pay to walk your walls. In most instances your priorities align and there is no issue, but they are not the people you turn to if you need unconditional support.

[Corvo the Crow]

@Trefayne

Border disputes still happen though, NM clans seem to have it often enough unless there's some other reason for quarrel. Webbers have several disputes, Conningtons and Morrigens, Brackens and Blackwoods...

Ned as HoK is settling disputes between holdfasts  adjudicating boundary stone placement. Joffrey orders two knights to fight to the death when they came with a land dispute.

[Three-Fingered Pete]

4 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Trefayne

Border disputes still happen though, NM clans seem to have it often enough unless there's some other reason for quarrel. Webbers have several disputes, Conningtons and Morrigens, Brackens and Blackwoods...

Ned as HoK is settling disputes between holdfasts  adjudicating boundary stone placement. Joffrey orders two knights to fight to the death when they came with a land dispute.

 

All true. I didn't say that there wasn't real conflict, just that there wasn't the nearly constant warfare that our history experienced. This thread is about military strengths, and by way of logistic curiosity, their deployments. Somehow we got down to personal motivations and social climbing. Sorry for that.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 11/12/2018 at 8:47 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

We know how many joined him when Renly was killed. Did they all stay? Did more trickle in afterward? Did some desert him? We are never explicitly told how many were at the Blackwater. However, your argument seems to be a nebulous "If he had 15000 cavalry, he should have done better", or something along those lines. Why? Tywin's relief force had something like 80,000 men.

As for the retcon. Do you really think Martin had the whole Westeros fleshed out and solidly established from the start? That he never changes his mind? If so, you are misguided. The retcon STRENGTHENS the argument that he puts significant thought into the numbers, rather than weakening it.

Honestly Stannis would have marched to BW with all the mounts, but it's kind of hard to get a a horse up a ladder or siege tower. We do see people getting dropped off with horses (or taking their horse over the bridge of ships) but until the gates were breached the fighting would have been done mostly on foot. No one is going to risk their horse within arrow range of the walls, which would be most of the fighting area in the BoBW.  

 

On 11/12/2018 at 5:16 AM, Lord Varys said:

Overall, common sense dictates that Stannis would have used a completely different strategy if he had had 10,000+ horse. For one, there would have been a decent chance to take that army and deal with/subdue Renly's men down at Bitterbridge. After all, what could the tens of thousands of foot do but yield or run if 10,000+ horse descended on them?

Kill them pretty efficiently. Heavy infantry, which is most of what we see in the series, has the advantage on the defensive against heavy cavalry. Pikes walls aren't easily broken and every camp we see is fortified and/or has patrols (Tywin's, Jaime's three camps at RR,  Robb's at MC, HH, et al). If they scrounged up a magic direwolf or Brynden, maybe they would take them unawares, but Tarly is in charge of that camp and clearly has a tight fist on the situation.

Entire discussion is academic anyway though, as Stannis sends emissaries who are captured and get Florent men butchered.

 

From the Art of War in the Western World (great book btw): 

Combat Diagram

[Corvo the Crow]

So with a new book coming in a few days, do we know if it includes some numbers?

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

So with a new book coming in a few days, do we know if it includes some numbers?

It should include more numbers than most of the other books. How good those will be is another question.