Tin Foil: Jeyne Westerling

[Lady Rhodes]

An interesting theory has popped into my head regarding Jeyne Westerling.  While there is not yet any indicative textual support, I have a theory that plays well into GRRM's textual pattern of inversions, parallels, and history repeating itself.  It also plays well into what we know regarding prologues: the narrator always dies.  While we don't know if she is the narrator of the forthcoming WoW prologue, we do know she is a character per GRRM himself.

Jeyne is going to die giving birth to Robb Stark's child.  In particular, I think she is going to give birth a Greywater Watch, in the care of Howland Reed.  She cannot go to the North (Boltons) and she cannot go to the Crag in Lannister territory.

When Jon finds out his true parentage (I am on the R+L=J boat, folks) I think Jon will be heartbroken at learning Ned wasn't his father, only for Howland to put Jon in the same position - if Robb's child was an orphan, what would he do? I think we all know what Jon would do. "My child by a Mole's town whore" etc.

Thoughts?

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

While we don't know if she is the narrator of the forthcoming WoW prologue, we do know she is a character per GRRM himself.

Jeyne is going to die giving birth to Robb Stark's child.  In particular, I think she is going to give birth a Greywater Watch, in the care of Howland Reed.  She cannot go to the North (Boltons) and she cannot go to the Crag in Lannister territory.

She's going West with Edmure and Forley Prester, a lot would have to be left out if she appears in the prologue of the next book in Greywater watch.

Plus, she isn't pregnant. Her mother made sure of that.

[Lady Rhodes]

3 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

She's going West with Edmure and Forley Prester, a lot would have to be left out if she appears in the prologue of the next book in Greywater watch.

Plus, she isn't pregnant. Her mother made sure of that.

As I said, tin foil. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

8 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

As I said, tin foil. 

What is the point of this idea if you already know it is not going to happen?  

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

10 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

As I said, tin foil. 

With respect, not so much "tinfoil" as flawed.

She's not showing any signs of pregnancy, so the chances of her giving birth the next time we see her are pretty slim.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Well, Jeyne Westerling is heading South with Edmure and Jaime Lannister's men. I suppose the group could get ambushed by The Brotherhood without Banners or Blackfish, and then take her to Greywater Watch, but I feel like from the last time Jeyne had sex with Robb, to present day there would've been signs of her pregnancy by now. 

Plus there wouldn't be any reason for Jon to pretend that the baby is his. Ned had to pretend Jon was his son, since the new King wanted to wipe out House Targaryen. The world finding out about Robb having a son wouldn't really matter at this point in the story, with Stannis or Jon about to wipe out the Boltons, Aegon heading for Kings Landing to wipe out the Lannisters, the skirmishes in the Riverlands, dragons to the East, and the Others to the North. 

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

With respect, not so much "tinfoil" as flawed.

She's not showing any signs of pregnancy, so the chances of her giving birth the next time we see her are pretty slim.

Fair enough. But it is also fair to say we have not seen her in quite some time. Refresh my memory but how do we know she is going West/South (since one responder said West and another said South). 

 

36 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

Well, Jeyne Westerling is heading South with Edmure and Jaime Lannister's men. I suppose the group could get ambushed by The Brotherhood without Banners or Blackfish, and then take her to Greywater Watch, but I feel like from the last time Jeyne had sex with Robb, to present day there would've been signs of her pregnancy by now. 

Plus there wouldn't be any reason for Jon to pretend that the baby is his. Ned had to pretend Jon was his son, since the new King wanted to wipe out House Targaryen. The world finding out about Robb having a son wouldn't really matter at this point in the story, with Stannis or Jon about to wipe out the Boltons, Aegon heading for Kings Landing to wipe out the Lannisters, the skirmishes in the Riverlands, dragons to the East, and the Others to the North. 

But the Bolton’s and the Lannisters have not been wiped out yet. Until they have, any child of Robb’s would be unsafe. 

I am not saying this will happen and I admit textual support is scant, if any. I am more intrigued by the thought. GRRM likes to work in terms of history repeating itself, and this would’ve an interesting continuation of that. 

[wia]

I get that your point is that the Jayne that Jaime met is actually her sister Eleyna, since the description doesn't match. And that the real Jeyne possibly escaped Riverrun with Blackfish and will join Lady Stoneheart who is possibly cooperating with Howland Reed.

What I don't get is why would Jon be at Greywater Watch? And why would he be making any decisions when there's Lady Stoneheart, an actual heir of Robb and a bunch of way more competent and powerful lords like Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover and Howland Reed around? And why would Robb's child have to be proclaimed a bastard when clearly many lords of the North are rallying to bring Starks back to Winterfell?

[Chris Mormont]

25 minutes ago, wia said:

the Jayne that Jaime met is actually her sister Eleyna, since the description doesn't match.

I have seen this theory a number of times. It would be rather easy for anyone to disguise themselves as a commoner and sneak away,  and perhaps this is what happened.  But the child would not be a bastard, even if it were an orphan, the child was still true born and if the parantage can be proven, would be the heir to Winterfell and the North.

 

[wia]

53 minutes ago, Chris Mormont said:

I have seen this theory a number of times. It would be rather easy for anyone to disguise themselves as a commoner and sneak away,  and perhaps this is what happened.  But the child would not be a bastard, even if it were an orphan, the child was still true born and if the parantage can be proven, would be the heir to Winterfell and the North.

Of course the potential child of Robb and Jeyne would be trueborn.
I was referring to:

3 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

only for Howland to put Jon in the same position - if Robb's child was an orphan, what would he do? I think we all know what Jon would do. "My child by a Mole's town whore" etc.

Which in this theory I understood as "for whatever reason Jon would have to take care of Robb's child and lie to people that it's his bastard". Maybe I misunderstood and that's not what Lady Rhodes was trying to say though.

[Dorian Martell's son]

50 minutes ago, wia said:

I get that your point is that the Jayne that Jaime met is actually her sister Eleyna, since the description doesn't match.

GRRM has stated that this was a mistake 

 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

57 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

But the Bolton’s and the Lannisters have not been wiped out yet. Until they have, any child of Robb’s would be unsafe. 

That's fair, but if the child was ever to venture North surely it would only be after the Boltons are dealt with, and even if they Boltons did win there is no reason the child cant spend the rest of its life living in secret at Greywater Watch.

As far as the Lannisters are concerned, they no longer really have any power. Tywin and Kevan are dead, Tyrion has joined the Second Sons in Essos, Jaime is missing in the Riverlands, and Cersei is an idiot who no one is going to take seriously anymore. Out of the ones alive Cersei is the only one vindictive enough to try and kill the child, but with what army? Its the Tyrells that run Kings Landing now, and Aegon is on the way. 

[wia]

7 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

GRRM has stated that this was a mistake 

 

All the more tinfoil then. )
Thanks for telling me, I didn't know. I wasn't a believer of this theory in the first place though.

[Lady Rhodes]

All good thoughts. It was a very rough sketch of a thought that as you all helped me unpack has revealed to be thoroughly flawed. Thank you for your feedback!

[Rufus Snow]

Much as a secret Stark heir would liven things up, there's no baby:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime VII

"As you will." Jaime turned to the daughter. "I am sorry for your loss. The boy had courage, I'll give him that. There is a question I must ask you. Are you carrying his child, my lady?"

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seized her by the arm. "She is not," said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. "I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me."

 

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

But it is also fair to say we have not seen her in quite some time. Refresh my memory but how do we know she is going West/South (since one responder said West and another said South). 

It's closer to south-west really, as she's in the column taking Edmure to Casterly Rock, the last we see of her. Protected by 400 Lannister men in case the Blackfish attempts a daring rescue:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Jaime VII

"Good." Jaime would as lief have Tully reach Casterly Rock safely, but better dead than fled. "Best keep some archers near Lord Westerling's daughter as well."

Ser Forley seemed taken aback. "Gawen's girl? She's—"

"—the Young Wolf's widow," Jaime finished, "and twice as dangerous as Edmure if she were ever to escape us."

I suspect the Westerlings are going home to the Crag and that Jeyne will not see daylight again until such time as her mother and Jaime can arrange a suitable marriage for her (after a two-year delay to avoid pretender-baby problems...)

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

GRRM has stated that this was a mistake 

 

Exactly. I can't believe this is still being used to support the "Jeyne is pregnant" ideas. I do suspect the abomination is to blame, at least in part.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Exactly. I can't believe this is still being used to support the "Jeyne is pregnant" ideas. I do suspect the abomination is to blame, at least in part.

what is the abomination? 

Aside from being the nickname for my junk of course 

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

what is the abomination? 

First line in my sig, enjoy. 

17 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Aside from being the nickname for my junk of course 

[Seams]

I think a pregnancy for Jeyne is worth considering. It's also a good bet that a royal baby of any usurper or claimant or even of a legitimized king would be vulnerable at this time of upheaval, especially if it were born outside of a major castle surrounded by a substantial army. So there would have to be some kind of secrecy or deception around the baby's true identity. Jon Snow doesn't have to be present at Greywater Watch for some of the major points of your idea to be true. My own guess is that Jeyne will join up with the Brotherhood without Banners, or that her brother, Raynald, survived the Red Wedding and that he will liberate her before she reaches the Crag. Perhaps in coordination with the Blackfish.

Details of Jaime's meeting with Jeyne are provocative:

Jeyne Westerling had been Robb Stark's queen, the girl who cost him everything. With a wolf in her belly, she could have proved more dangerous than the Blackfish.

She did not look dangerous. Jeyne was a willowy girl, no more than fifteen or sixteen, more awkward than graceful. She had narrow hips, breast the size of apples, a mop of chestnut curls, and the soft brown eyes of a doe. Pretty enough for a child, Jaime decided, but not a girl to lose a kingdom for. Her face was puffy, and there was a scab on her forehead, half-hidden by a lock of brown hair. "What happened there?" he asked her.

The girl turned her head away. "It is nothing," insisted her mother, a stern-faced woman in a gown of green velvet. A necklace of golden seashells looped about her long, thin neck. "She would not give up the little crown the rebel gave her, and when I tried to take it from her head the willful child fought me."

...

". . . There is a question I must ask you. Are you carrying his child, my lady?"

Jeyne burst from her chair and would have fled the room if the guard at the door had not seized her by the arm. "She is not," said Lady Sybell, as her daughter struggled to escape. "I made certain of that, as your lord father bid me."

...

"You'll have your marriages," said Jaime, "but Jeyne must wait two full years before she weds again." If the girl took another husband too soon and had a child by him, inevitably there would come whispers that the Young Wolf was the father.

(Feast, Chap. 44, Jaime VII)

Anytime someone like Jaime thinks, "She did not look dangerous," you have to wonder whether GRRM is chuckling with glee about the irony of the assessment. It's like Jon Snow thinking Tormund is Mance when he is first brought into the presence of the King Beyond the Wall. To me, Jaime's first impression is almost a sure sign that Jeyne Westerling is dangerous.

Jeyne is described here as willowy. Jeyne and Willow are also the names of the Heddle nieces who take over the running of the inn at the crossroads after Masha Heddle and then her nephew are killed. Jeyne and Willow resemble Sansa and Arya, in some ways. The two Heddle girls ally with the Brotherhood Without Banners in their effort to provide for war orphans and to maintain the inn as a business. To me, the comparison of Jeyne Westerling to the Heddle girls is a sign that she is going to become a leader and a combatant. Jeyne's dangerousness may not be limited to her possible pregnancy.

Being more awkward than graceful is an interesting combination. Anything with the word "ward" in it is a loaded word, with what we know of wards and stewards and wardens in the books. "Grace" is a word associated with a ruler in Westeros. So Jaime doesn't say Jeyne is completely ungraceful, just that she is more awkward the graceful.

Apples are often associated with emerging kings. (See the Fossoway history for some of the symbolism.) The fact that it is Jeyne's breasts that are like apples tell me that she very likely could be preparing to breast feed a baby king.

The chestnut curls is a tree reference, and chestnut is a kind of reddish brown color. Can't think of any significance for red trees in the books, but let me get back to you on that.

I don't know if the comparison between Jeyne's brown eyes and a doe's eyes goes toward a Baratheon stag allusion, or something else. We know that the mother direwolf died with an antler in its throat. I'm trying to collect brown references, and I think they might be associated with ancient kings although it could be more complex than that. I assume Tristifer Mudd is in the brown category, but there are a lot of other brown characters I would have to examine in greater detail. Probable symbolic meaning here, but I'm not sure what it means.

"Pretty enough for a child." This line seems like a broad hint that Jeyne might be carrying a child. It's one of those phrases that seems to mean one thing on the surface but could mean something else if you slowed down and read it a few more times. Robb wouldn't want to lose his kingdom for a girl (daughter) maybe, but it would be less problematic to lose a kingdom for a boy (son).

I've written elsewhere that the scab on the forehead may be a sign of Jeyne opening her third eye, so to speak. I don't mean she is now a greenseer on the same wavelength as Bran, but we see other characters pecked on the head or otherwise injured on the head who then gain insight into what is going on around them. So Lady Sybell taking Jeyne's crown caused Jeyne to open her eyes to what was going on around her. At the beginning of Chap. 45 in ASoS, Lame Lothar Frey compares Jeyne to Roslin as he rides with Catelyn and Robb toward the Red Wedding. So Jeyne and Roslin both have their eyes opened to the hidden plots against their husbands. Maybe Jeyne and Roslin are both pregnant.

It is Lady Sybell who tells Jaime that Jeyne is not pregnant, not Jeyne herself. In fact, Jeyne is described as bursting in response to Jaime's question. Kind of like some of GRRM's images around childbirth or the opening of a pigeon pie or the hatching of an egg. It's possible that Jeyne figured out that her mother's potions were not helping her to conceive, and that she stopped drinking them. Or maybe she had a last conjugal encounter with Robb of which her mother was not aware.

I stopped watching the abomination a couple of years ago, so I am looking only at the books for hints about Jeyne.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

First line in my sig, enjoy. 

Lol