Jump to content
Ellard Stark

United Westeros vs United Free Cities (w no supernatural elements)

Recommended Posts

Lets say a Combined Westeros and with Iron Islands VERSUS a united Free Cities AND their regions not just the cities itself. For Simplicity Sake, no supernatural/religious/banking elements.

Volantis is powerful and rich, but clearly past its glory days. Braavos rules a coastline extending for a couple of hundred miles Southwards. I expect it has a considerable hinterland as well. Volantis has extensive inland territories, as does Pentos.

Basically Westeros loses, and needs either Volantis or Braavos or Both to sit out. They will land first and fast. You could hopefully distract them but having them force themselves in through the North or through Dorne. Westeros armies need to be quicker in taking the cities. And establishing a line of supplies & reinforcements. Would be essential.

 

Could Westeros play Defense and hold out for the onslaught? No, not really. =/

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really sure how can you exclude banking elements when a good portion of Essos army are sellswords.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, wia said:

Not really sure how can you exclude banking elements when a good portion of Essos army are sellswords.

I’ve seen Westeros described as a martial aristocracy. Every lord is supposed to be a warrior (in theory). Their sons are supposed to begin martial training in early childhood. Their homes are fortresses. Their authority derives from their ability to protect their holdings and enforce their will through strength-of-arms. Though the details vary, this is true from Winterfell to the Sunspear.

Some of the individual states are very good at certain aspects of warfare. Bravos, is a naval powerhouse, Myr seems to have an edge in weapons technology, and Qohor has the best armorers and metalsmiths in the world.

 

The Stepstones: 1400 Men under Aurane waters, 3 Warships.

The Stepstones: 620 Men under Salladhor Saan, 14 Ships.

Tyrosh: 14K Levy, 3000 Tyroshi City Watch, 300 merchant guards, 250 Ships.

Lys: 13K Levy, 3270 City Watch, 400 Lysene Pikemen, 300 Ships.

Myr: 15K Levy, 2000 City Watch, 2300 Crossbowmen, 430 Ships

Pentos: 1900 City watch, 20 Warships, Pentos is Forbidden from raising an army except for the city watch.

Braavos: 18K Levy, 400 Titan Guards, 3000 City Watch, 1000 Ships.

Lorath: 4K Levy, 2200 City Watch, 60 Ships.

Norvos: 9K Levy, 760 Holy Warriors, 2500 City Watch, 50 Ships.

Selhorys and Valysar: 700 Heavy Cavalry, 300 Archers.

Volantis: 21K Levy, 3000 Slave Soldiers , 4000 Tiger Cloaks,140 War Elephants, 400 War Galleys.

Qohor: 4300 Levy, 3300 Unsullied(City Watch),200 Heavy Cavalry,70 Ships.

 

Something about Elephants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Ellard Stark said:

Lets say a Combined Westeros and with Iron Islands VERSUS a united Free Cities AND their regions not just the cities itself. For Simplicity Sake, no supernatural/religious/banking elements.

Volantis is powerful and rich, but clearly past its glory days. Braavos rules a coastline extending for a couple of hundred miles Southwards. I expect it has a considerable hinterland as well. Volantis has extensive inland territories, as does Pentos.

Basically Westeros loses, and needs either Volantis or Braavos or Both to sit out. They will land first and fast. You could hopefully distract them but having them force themselves in through the North or through Dorne. Westeros armies need to be quicker in taking the cities. And establishing a line of supplies & reinforcements. Would be essential.

 

Could Westeros play Defense and hold out for the onslaught? No, not really. =/

 

 

This should be in "Forum Games" 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ellard Stark said:

Lets say a Combined Westeros and with Iron Islands VERSUS a united Free Cities AND their regions not just the cities itself. For Simplicity Sake, no supernatural/religious/banking elements.

Volantis is powerful and rich, but clearly past its glory days. Braavos rules a coastline extending for a couple of hundred miles Southwards. I expect it has a considerable hinterland as well. Volantis has extensive inland territories, as does Pentos.

Basically Westeros loses, and needs either Volantis or Braavos or Both to sit out. They will land first and fast. You could hopefully distract them but having them force themselves in through the North or through Dorne. Westeros armies need to be quicker in taking the cities. And establishing a line of supplies & reinforcements. Would be essential.

 

Could Westeros play Defense and hold out for the onslaught? No, not really. =/

 

 

Having no banks kind of ruin it. The rogare  and iron bank would act as counters to the gold of casterly rock. Don’t know who’d win though as we Don’t have that much knowledge of all essos’ military compared to westeros’ military.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ellard Stark said:

Lets say a Combined Westeros and with Iron Islands VERSUS a united Free Cities AND their regions not just the cities itself. For Simplicity Sake, no supernatural/religious/banking elements.

Volantis is powerful and rich, but clearly past its glory days. Braavos rules a coastline extending for a couple of hundred miles Southwards. I expect it has a considerable hinterland as well. Volantis has extensive inland territories, as does Pentos.

Basically Westeros loses, and needs either Volantis or Braavos or Both to sit out. They will land first and fast. You could hopefully distract them but having them force themselves in through the North or through Dorne. Westeros armies need to be quicker in taking the cities. And establishing a line of supplies & reinforcements. Would be essential.

 

Could Westeros play Defense and hold out for the onslaught? No, not really. =/

 

 

Westeros vs. (The Free Cities - The Dothraki) = victory for Westeros.  

Let's change the equation a bit.

(The Free Cities + The Dothraki + The Unsullied) vs. Westeros = Complete victory for Essos 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Ellard Stark said:

Lets say a Combined Westeros and with Iron Islands VERSUS a united Free Cities AND their regions not just the cities itself. For Simplicity Sake, no supernatural/religious/banking elements.

Volantis is powerful and rich, but clearly past its glory days. Braavos rules a coastline extending for a couple of hundred miles Southwards. I expect it has a considerable hinterland as well. Volantis has extensive inland territories, as does Pentos.

Basically Westeros loses, and needs either Volantis or Braavos or Both to sit out. They will land first and fast. You could hopefully distract them but having them force themselves in through the North or through Dorne. Westeros armies need to be quicker in taking the cities. And establishing a line of supplies & reinforcements. Would be essential.

Could Westeros play Defense and hold out for the onslaught? No, not really. =/

The first thing is why they would unite. Invading Westeros is out of question, it is not in their interest and any war of conquest will be extremely costly. Sooner than later, struggle will break up among them and some of the independent actors will take advantage (e.g Tyrosh conquering the Disputed Lands or the Dothraki invading some of the cities, etc). The same is true for Westeros, trying to conquer Essos is a recipe for trouble at home.

I can only see one scenario where Westeros will enter in conflict with most Essos (and actually most of Planetos): Trying to invade the Stepstones. Imagine a popular king who gets angry by the pirates in these islands and offer them to the ironmen with support of the Royal and Redwyne navy and some armies. If the new lords of the Stepstones stop offering free passage, it would sour the relation with the Free Cities and they will likely go to war. I doubt that Westeros will be able to sustain a maritime campaign against many other powerful naval powers: Braavos, Ibb, Lys, Volantis, Summer Islanders, etc. Trying to sustain that war, will deplete Westeros treasure and weaken the IT stance versus its vassals.

But the same applies to any of the Free Cities or an alliance of few of them.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2018 at 3:01 PM, Ellard Stark said:

Could Westeros play Defense and hold out for the onslaught? No, not really. =/

Essos will beat Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A united Westeros smashes a united Essos, and it ain't even close.  The only scenario where the Essosoi would have an advantage is if they engaged the Royal Fleet prior to an attempted landing in Essos.  If the battle is to take place in Westeros, it's a cruel, one-sided destruction.  If the Westerosi successfully land their forces on Essos, it's over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2018 at 8:22 PM, Ellard Stark said:

I’ve seen Westeros described as a martial aristocracy. Every lord is supposed to be a warrior (in theory). Their sons are supposed to begin martial training in early childhood. Their homes are fortresses. Their authority derives from their ability to protect their holdings and enforce their will through strength-of-arms. Though the details vary, this is true from Winterfell to the Sunspear.

Some of the individual states are very good at certain aspects of warfare. Bravos, is a naval powerhouse, Myr seems to have an edge in weapons technology, and Qohor has the best armorers and metalsmiths in the world.

 

The Stepstones: 1400 Men under Aurane waters, 3 Warships.

The Stepstones: 620 Men under Salladhor Saan, 14 Ships.

Tyrosh: 14K Levy, 3000 Tyroshi City Watch, 300 merchant guards, 250 Ships.

Lys: 13K Levy, 3270 City Watch, 400 Lysene Pikemen, 300 Ships.

Myr: 15K Levy, 2000 City Watch, 2300 Crossbowmen, 430 Ships

Pentos: 1900 City watch, 20 Warships, Pentos is Forbidden from raising an army except for the city watch.

Braavos: 18K Levy, 400 Titan Guards, 3000 City Watch, 1000 Ships.

Lorath: 4K Levy, 2200 City Watch, 60 Ships.

Norvos: 9K Levy, 760 Holy Warriors, 2500 City Watch, 50 Ships.

Selhorys and Valysar: 700 Heavy Cavalry, 300 Archers.

Volantis: 21K Levy, 3000 Slave Soldiers , 4000 Tiger Cloaks,140 War Elephants, 400 War Galleys.

Qohor: 4300 Levy, 3300 Unsullied(City Watch),200 Heavy Cavalry,70 Ships.

 

Something about Elephants

Where do these numbers come from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, lets break it down.  First off, Westeros categorically cannot invade or conquer any significant portion of Essos.  The logistics of an overseas conquest are beyond the feudal aristocracy of Westeros.  Essos, being more of an Early Modern Europe type of society, has a slightly better chance of conquering and holding a portion of Westeros.

That being said, Essos is clearly at an advantage, here.  Volon Therys is a "town" in the area of influence of Volantis, and is bigger than Kings Landing or Oldtown.  The population of just Western Essos alone vastly outstrips that of the entirety of Westeros, and is probably several times larger.  Technologically speaking, the arms and armor of Essosi forces will be centuries ahead of Westeros.  Braavos has a Venetian-style arsenal capable of putting more warships into the water in a year than the entire Westerosi polity can support in total.  Myr manufactures high quality crossbows which negate huge portions of the advantages of having armored cavalry.

GRRM has some wonkiness with the way warfare works in Essos, because it certainly seems as though the Free Cities wage war with far fewer troops than they can theoretically support, but I suppose it makes sense if you assume that they all employ a few thousand mercenaries who are constantly hired out and doing low level raiding, and very little fighting on the scale of the mass mobilizations of the WOT5K or Robert's Rebellion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2018 at 4:26 PM, Bullrout said:

Essos will beat Westeros.

 

24 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Well, lets break it down.  First off, Westeros categorically cannot invade or conquer any significant portion of Essos.  The logistics of an overseas conquest are beyond the feudal aristocracy of Westeros.  Essos, being more of an Early Modern Europe type of society, has a slightly better chance of conquering and holding a portion of Westeros.

That being said, Essos is clearly at an advantage, here.  Volon Therys is a "town" in the area of influence of Volantis, and is bigger than Kings Landing or Oldtown.  The population of just Western Essos alone vastly outstrips that of the entirety of Westeros, and is probably several times larger.  Technologically speaking, the arms and armor of Essosi forces will be centuries ahead of Westeros.  Braavos has a Venetian-style arsenal capable of putting more warships into the water in a year than the entire Westerosi polity can support in total.  Myr manufactures high quality crossbows which negate huge portions of the advantages of having armored cavalry.

GRRM has some wonkiness with the way warfare works in Essos, because it certainly seems as though the Free Cities wage war with far fewer troops than they can theoretically support, but I suppose it makes sense if you assume that they all employ a few thousand mercenaries who are constantly hired out and doing low level raiding, and very little fighting on the scale of the mass mobilizations of the WOT5K or Robert's Rebellion

Essos is a little more advanced.  The mercenaries are professional soldiers with a lot of experience.  The armies of Westeros are mostly a reserve force made up of the working folk.  Some are very well trained but none of them can match the professionals.  The Unsullied are the best infantry in the world.  They are basically the lockstep legions of Old Ghis.  And let me remind the ones here with a Westerosi bias.  It took five wars before Valyria and her dragons could defeat the legions of Old Ghis.  It only took three dragons and a thousand soldiers for Visenya and her siblings to take the whole of Westeros.  It's no contest if the Easterners use their Unsullied.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Free Cities can barely get along with each other with  Myr, Lys and Tyrosh even being called "the quarrelsome daughters." I feel like if the Free Cities ever went to all out war with Westeros at least one or two of the cities would betray Essos in exchange for Westeros giving them control of conquered lands/towns/incomes once the war is over. Would some Westerosi lords think or try to do the same? Probably, but it would be much harder because they live in a monarchy. Whereas Essos hasn't been ruled or controlled by a ruling group since Valyria.

Also, the Dothraki would never fall in line and take orders from anyone who wasn't Dothraki. They'd be just as likely to attack and conquer Essosi cities as they would be to fight with them. Just as the Wildlings would likely try to come over the Wall and attack and raid the North with it's armies occupied.

At the end of the day in a war against foreign invaders Westeros is more likely to stay as they have been most of the time since the Targaryen conquest, a unified realm with a clear line of war time authority and chain of command. This was not the case when Aegon I and his sisters conquered Westeros, they were a realm of separate and often quarrelsome regions of people, not so dissimilar from what the Free Cities are now. Essos would be too busy deciding and arguing over who does what, where and when to come together. It's probably why they never all came together to even think about conquering Westeros. IMO

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2018 at 6:18 PM, U. B. Cool said:

Westeros vs. (The Free Cities - The Dothraki) = victory for Westeros.  

Let's change the equation a bit.

(The Free Cities + The Dothraki + The Unsullied) vs. Westeros = Complete victory for Essos 

:agree:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Well, lets break it down.  First off, Westeros categorically cannot invade or conquer any significant portion of Essos.  The logistics of an overseas conquest are beyond the feudal aristocracy of Westeros.  Essos, being more of an Early Modern Europe type of society, has a slightly better chance of conquering and holding a portion of Westeros.

That being said, Essos is clearly at an advantage, here.  Volon Therys is a "town" in the area of influence of Volantis, and is bigger than Kings Landing or Oldtown.  The population of just Western Essos alone vastly outstrips that of the entirety of Westeros, and is probably several times larger.  Technologically speaking, the arms and armor of Essosi forces will be centuries ahead of Westeros.  Braavos has a Venetian-style arsenal capable of putting more warships into the water in a year than the entire Westerosi polity can support in total.  Myr manufactures high quality crossbows which negate huge portions of the advantages of having armored cavalry.

GRRM has some wonkiness with the way warfare works in Essos, because it certainly seems as though the Free Cities wage war with far fewer troops than they can theoretically support, but I suppose it makes sense if you assume that they all employ a few thousand mercenaries who are constantly hired out and doing low level raiding, and very little fighting on the scale of the mass mobilizations of the WOT5K or Robert's Rebellion

Essos wins because of the Dothraki.  

3 hours ago, The Pink Letter said:

 

Essos is a little more advanced.  The mercenaries are professional soldiers with a lot of experience.  The armies of Westeros are mostly a reserve force made up of the working folk.  Some are very well trained but none of them can match the professionals.  The Unsullied are the best infantry in the world.  They are basically the lockstep legions of Old Ghis.  And let me remind the ones here with a Westerosi bias.  It took five wars before Valyria and her dragons could defeat the legions of Old Ghis.  It only took three dragons and a thousand soldiers for Visenya and her siblings to take the whole of Westeros.  It's no contest if the Easterners use their Unsullied.  

:agree:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2018 at 6:18 PM, U. B. Cool said:

Westeros vs. (The Free Cities - The Dothraki) = victory for Westeros.  

Let's change the equation a bit.

(The Free Cities + The Dothraki + The Unsullied) vs. Westeros = Complete victory for Essos 

Essos will win easily under this scenario.  Quite easily.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/17/2018 at 2:11 AM, hodorisfaclessman said:

Still no slurce for the figures for essos?

There's no need.  The Dothraki alone outnumber the armies of Westeros.  Adding in the sell swords of the Free Cities and all of the Unsullied will completely overwhelm Westeros.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×