Kandrax Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Who is more responsible for it? Two Betrayers, Blackfyres or someone third? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron III Greyjoy Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 The Faith of the Seven, of course the Blackfyres really didn't help the situation. xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Kandrax said: Who is more responsible for it? Two Betrayers, Blackfyres or someone third? I’m not convinced there was any one historical event that led to it. It’s a cultural thing, based upon the need for a clear inheritance of land and titles, which is justified by a prejudice. History is written with such prejudices in mind, so that the actions of the Two Betrayers and the Blackfyres are often refracted through the lens of the writer and the reader’s opinions of bastards, which are born out of the attitudes of the society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 I think it's just supposed to be endemic to the society as it was to western society before the modern age.  Because a child was born in sin, his or her mother was often seen as little better than a prostitute and that was projected onto the child. They were often stamped as criminals in self-fulfilling prophecy.  They were outside the social fabric of the family. When Catelyn talks about being glad Jon is going to the Watch so he'll have no chance, and he'll have no descendents to have the chance, to steal Robb or her own kid's inheritance, she's referencing one of the greatest bastards in literature, Edmund from King Lear, who schemed to have his legitimate brother exiled and his father's nose and ears cut off and killed so he could take his father's place as the Earl of Gloucester. Bastards would be jealous of legitimate siblings by nature, and want what they had.  They were 'baseborn', ignoble, common. Hardly anyone regards Jon this way, but the word 'bastard'can always be spat out to try to humble him.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 All of society and history is responsible for the negative image of bastards, even ones with the pure sounding name of Snow. Houses create formal bonds through the act of marrying their children to each other. Legitimacy matters a great deal in this context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 8 hours ago, Kandrax said: Who is more responsible for it? Two Betrayers, Blackfyres or someone third? The responsibility lies with the social and political order of ruling houses/families. Bastardy crosses that. So, the first men technically Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullrout Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 11 hours ago, Kandrax said: Who is more responsible for it? Two Betrayers, Blackfyres or someone third? The Blackfyres.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kandrax Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 12 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: I’m not convinced there was any one historical event that led to it. It’s a cultural thing, based upon the need for a clear inheritance of land and titles, which is justified by a prejudice. History is written with such prejudices in mind, so that the actions of the Two Betrayers and the Blackfyres are often refracted through the lens of the writer and the reader’s opinions of bastards, which are born out of the attitudes of the society. I agree with you that one event didn't lead to it. Maybe i should ask who worsened it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 The men are the ones creating these bastards. It's got to be obvious where most of the negatives are coming from. The women. Mostly the wives. Some will come from the true born children of the marriage. Bastards on their own produce very little threat to the inheritance. The bastards do not have a legal claim to take anything from the true born children. The real competition is for the affection of the father. The threat that the bastards will take away the lands of the father is nonsense because we know how difficult it is to legitimize a bastard. Only the king has that right and he is not going to do this lightly. The father does not have the right to pass his lands to his favorite bastard.  Those things are dictated by law. He will have to ask the king to legitimize his bastard. A king will only do this when the situation is desperate. Like there are no true born children from the father.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Bastards are condemned by the First Men just as much as by the Andals. Else there wouldn't be the bastard mocking name of 'Snow' up in the North - which was already being used before the Conquest (as Brandon Snow confirms). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 There is also a legal matter to consider. Bastards are denied the right to inherit the land because that would destabilize the feudal system. The monarch controls the succession. In other words the law dictates how the land will be passed and to whom.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 4 hours ago, Kandrax said: I agree with you that one event didn't lead to it. Maybe i should ask who worsened it. The Blackfyres as the most significant case would not have made things better and I imagine there was a sudden increase in side-eyeing bastards at the time. Â But in the longterm, bastards are just supposed to act this way; the Blackfyres could be pointed to as a case in point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Quote The Sworn Sword "King Aegon washed Bloodraven clean of bastardy," he reminded Egg, "the same as he did the rest of them." "The old High Septon told my father that king's laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another," the boy said stubbornly. "Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal . . . Daemon Blackfyre, Bittersteel, even Bloodraven. Lord Rivers was more cunning than the other two, he said, but in the end he would prove himself a traitor, too. The High Septon counseled my father never to put any trust in him, nor in any other bastards, great or small." Born to betrayal, Dunk thought. Born of lust and weakness. Never to be trusted, great or small. "Egg," he said, "didn't you ever think that I might be a bastard? It's society in general, helped greatly by the Faith. But out of the ones mentioned I would say Bittersteel/Bloodraven equally, for nothing more than their physical abnormalities - something like that would have a big impact on a Westerosi superstitious brain and add to an already skewed mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 6 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said: I would say Bittersteel/Bloodraven equally, for nothing more than their physical abnormalities I wasn't aware Bittersteel had any physical abnormalities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: I wasn't aware Bittersteel had any physical abnormalities? You are right! I was thinking of old two-headed fellow. My bad, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Just now, Legitimate_Bastard said: You are right! I was thinking of old two-headed fellow. My bad, sir. Forgiven but not forgotten! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 The Seven. We don't see northerners having too much of a problem with bastardy; Jon is with his father, Hornwood bastard is fostered like any other Highborn boy, Torrhen kept his bastard brother with him despite having numerous children and even sent him to negotiate terms with Aegon. Freefolk is even better, they don't care about bastardy at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: We don't see northerners having too much of a problem with bastardy; Jon is with his father, Hornwood bastard is fostered like any other Highborn boy, Torrhen kept his bastard brother with him despite having numerous children and even sent him to negotiate terms with Aegon. Actually, Lady Hornwood talks deprecatingly about Ramsey Snow's bastardy, and Sir Rodrik seems to think that she wouldn't take kindly to her husband's bastard being made the heir. There are plenty of examples of southern bastards being treated similarly to the examples you mention - Rodrik Storm, Red Ronnet's bastard, Frey bastards, Joy Hill...there are several others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 The Northmen don't treat their bastards different or better. Jon lives at Winterfell and Joy Hill lives at Casterly Rock. Still, both cultures treat them like shit and ascribe to the nonsensical stories about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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