Tolkien 3.0

[Corvinus85]

5 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

It's a detailed exploration of a marriage gone wrong - a domestic drama. More generally, it's a deconstruction of what happens when you extend human lifespan to Numenorean levels.

But he could have made Erendis a descendant of Elros, and the issue of her losing years would have been less impactful. We have Galadriel and Celeborn at the extreme end of two long-lived individuals who are together. I haven't read all those details about them. Do they have marriage troubles?

[Corvinus85]

4 hours ago, kingoftheamericas said:

"Honor above reason"...?

Is that the discussion?

I think everyone does that.  I think the real differences lies in each's understanding of the afterlife.  Some men fear death, as the great unknown.  Elves fully appreciate the immortal soul, as long life affords them insight and knowledge of the truth...maybe.

A reasonable man wants to live, no?  It is unreasonable to fight and die for another or a cause greater than yourself?

"Aye, fight and you may die, run, and you'll live...for a while..."

Did you just quote Braveheart?

[SeanF]

On 24 April 2019 at 12:27 PM, Corvinus said:

But he could have made Erendis a descendant of Elros, and the issue of her losing years would have been less impactful. We have Galadriel and Celeborn at the extreme end of two long-lived individuals who are together. I haven't read all those details about them. Do they have marriage troubles?

Not that I know of

One marriage I'd like to know more about is Mithrellas/Imrazor.  Was that a marriage that failed?  Yes, because she fled her family.  But, maybe she couldn't bear the thought of her husband, children, and grandchildren all dying, while she was doomed to live on.

[Vaughn]

I've never read the posthumous books - are they worth reading? 

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 4/24/2019 at 11:27 PM, Corvinus said:

But he could have made Erendis a descendant of Elros, and the issue of her losing years would have been less impactful. We have Galadriel and Celeborn at the extreme end of two long-lived individuals who are together. I haven't read all those details about them. Do they have marriage troubles?

And then you wouldn't have the source of conflict, the motor for a story. Aldarion and Erendis is not, at its heart, an epic story. It's a story with very low stakes - the conflict between a distracted husband, and a wife who wants a family... which has implications with their daughter. It's also an extremely sad story, given how relatable it is.

Galadriel and Celeborn doesn't quite work as an analogy, because neither have to worry about biological clocks.

 

[The Marquis de Leech]

2 hours ago, Vaughn said:

I've never read the posthumous books - are they worth reading? 

Have you read The Silmarillion? If not, start there, and see how you do. If you have, go for The Children of Hurin, then Unfinished Tales.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Why Tolkien was not Spenglerian:

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2019/04/28/writing-decline-tolkien-vs-spengler-and-michael-potts/

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Why Tolkien was not Spenglerian:

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2019/04/28/writing-decline-tolkien-vs-spengler-and-michael-potts/

Thanks.

I don't think that "Winter" applies to the Gondorean population as a whole, but more to the ultra-conservative elements of its aristocracy.  Minas Tirith is a city in decline, but in large part, that's because it's now a city on a frontier.  The bulk of Gondor's population is in the fertile (and safer) lands nearer the coast. Although the fighting in those areas mostly takes place off-stage, that's where most of Gondor's army is stationed during the War of the Ring.

Faramir praises the foresight of the Stewards in encouraging intermarriage between the Numenorean and non-Numenorean inhabitants of Gondor, whereas their predecessors were obsessed with blood-purity. 

Gondor has lost many of its territories over the centuries, but plainly still has a substantial population in the heartland. Tolkien compared it to Byzantium, but it's the Byzantium of about 800 AD, not the Byzantium of 1453.

[Falconer]

On 4/25/2019 at 6:26 PM, Vaughn said:

I've never read the posthumous books - are they worth reading? 

Without a doubt. In his lifetime, Tolkien accomplished or attempted three major cycles:

1. The First Age
2. Númenor
3. The Lord of the Rings

And if you avoid the posthumously-published writings, you can only experience The Lord of the Rings.

The First Age is a very large and detailed cycle that Tolkien worked on throughout his early and late years (i.e., both before and after the other cycles). The First Age is naturally the backdrop of Tolkien’s other two cycles, and his three delightful children’s books* also mine this material. The First Age is my single favorite body of fiction.

The First Age exists in many versions, long-form and summary, incomplete and complete. The original work, The Book of Lost Tales, benefits from being both long-form and almost complete. Only the final tale, that of Eärendil, was never fully written. So if you’re interested in this cycle, I recommend:

1. The Book of Lost Tales (in two volumes)
2. The Lays of Beleriand (expanded poetic versions of two of the tales)
3. Unfinished Tales (expanded prose versions of two of the tales)

Númenor (Tolkien’s name for Atlantis) was the product of Tolkien’s attempt at a time travel novel which was meant to tie in with Lewis’s space travel series. It seems that Amazon may be doing a TV series based on this. The most substantive and thrilling writings on the subject are published in Sauron Defeated. There is also a really striking story called Tal-Elmar, which is included in The Peoples of Middle-earth. Númenor overall is by far the least substantive of Tolkien’s three major cycles.

The Lord of the Rings probably requires no explanation, though there are a ton of cool short works expanding on it, many of the most substantive of which are included in Unfinished Tales.

* The three First Age-derived children’s books are: The Hobbit, The Father Christmas Letters, and Roverandom — again, only one of which is nonposthumous.

[saymyname]

As far as I know, the Amazon series will take place in the second  Age. That includes Sauruman Right? Who is not yet Evil? 

[matt b]

16 minutes ago, saymyname said:

As far as I know, the Amazon series will take place in the second  Age. That includes Sauruman Right? Who is not yet Evil? 

Probably not, according to Unfinished Tales none of the wizards show up in Middle-earth until about the year 1000 of the Third Age. I mean, technically he would exist at the time as a Maiar in Valinor, so I suppose he could theoretically show up. But I think it'd be quite a stretch for them to shoehorn him in.

[Falconer]

Tolkien later decided that the two Blue Wizards came to Middle-earth much earlier, around the year 1,600 of the Second Age, along with Glorfindel (who had previously died in the Fall of Gondolin). So they could theoretically feature in the show.

But, yeah, he still had Saruman, Radagast, and Gandalf not arriving till c. T.A. 1,000 (presumably S+R on one ship and G on a separate ship some time later).

[HexMachina]

14 hours ago, saymyname said:

As far as I know, the Amazon series will take place in the second  Age. That includes Sauruman Right? Who is not yet Evil? 

This thread is your best bet for discussion of the Amazon series. Lots of insight and speculation as to the content

[Ser Drewy]

I've just started re-reading Rings this week. I'm up to 'The Old Forest' and loving it all over again. One thing I do find funny is that it's actually quite a tightly paced novel, Tolkien really doesn't drag things out and the adventure (and the appearance of the Nazgul) come quite early. Those criticisms of him being plodding have never made much sense to me; I simply don't see/feel it. I really like the tension when they're hunted by the Ringwraiths around the Woodyend, as well as the nice blend of humour and growing darkness. Merry, Pippin and Sam's conspiracy remains awesome, especially the everyday hobbity courage "We're coming with you, Frodo; or following after like hounds!" and I've always hated how they just 'happen' to end up on the journey in the film adaptation. 

The Old Forest is the much maligned section of the book, but honestly I seem to like it the each time I re-read the book. I like Merry's tale about the time the trees became wrathful and attacked the Hedge, and the hobbits had to fight them off. There's a really vivid uneasy vibe in this chapter. Tom Bombadil is coming up soon, and though there's always been things I've liked about him, the 'Hey dol derry dol' type singing has never worked for me. I'm not sure this will change this time either. 

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

I've just started re-reading Rings this week. I'm up to 'The Old Forest' and loving it all over again. One thing I do find funny is that it's actually quite a tightly paced novel, Tolkien really doesn't drag things out and the adventure (and the appearance of the Nazgul) come quite early. Those criticisms of him being plodding have never made much sense to me; I simply don't see/feel it. I really like the tension when they're hunted by the Ringwraiths around the Woodyend, as well as the nice blend of humour and growing darkness. Merry, Pippin and Sam's conspiracy remains awesome, especially the everyday hobbity courage "We're coming with you, Frodo; or following after like hounds!" and I've always hated how they just 'happen' to end up on the journey in the film adaptation. 

The Old Forest is the much maligned section of the book, but honestly I seem to like it the each time I re-read the book. I like Merry's tale about the time the trees became wrathful and attacked the Hedge, and the hobbits had to fight them off. There's a really vivid uneasy vibe in this chapter. Tom Bombadil is coming up soon, and though there's always been things I've liked about him, the 'Hey dol derry dol' type singing has never worked for me. I'm not sure this will change this time either. 

BUt you have the wonderful barrow wight segment to sustain you through theBombadil section...  

(though i personally enjoy Tom)

[SeanF]

7 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

BUt you have the wonderful barrow wight segment to sustain you through theBombadil section...  

(though i personally enjoy Tom)

I wasn't that keen on Tom.

9 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

I've just started re-reading Rings this week. I'm up to 'The Old Forest' and loving it all over again. One thing I do find funny is that it's actually quite a tightly paced novel, Tolkien really doesn't drag things out and the adventure (and the appearance of the Nazgul) come quite early. Those criticisms of him being plodding have never made much sense to me; I simply don't see/feel it. I really like the tension when they're hunted by the Ringwraiths around the Woodyend, as well as the nice blend of humour and growing darkness. Merry, Pippin and Sam's conspiracy remains awesome, especially the everyday hobbity courage "We're coming with you, Frodo; or following after like hounds!" and I've always hated how they just 'happen' to end up on the journey in the film adaptation. 

The Old Forest is the much maligned section of the book, but honestly I seem to like it the each time I re-read the book. I like Merry's tale about the time the trees became wrathful and attacked the Hedge, and the hobbits had to fight them off. There's a really vivid uneasy vibe in this chapter. Tom Bombadil is coming up soon, and though there's always been things I've liked about him, the 'Hey dol derry dol' type singing has never worked for me. I'm not sure this will change this time either. 

I enjoyed the Old Forest.  It's a frightening place.

You're right about the pace of the novel.  It's a good deal faster-paced than many books written by a lot of modern writers of fantasy.

 

[Ser Drewy]

9 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

BUt you have the wonderful barrow wight segment to sustain you through theBombadil section...  

(though i personally enjoy Tom)

The singing is a bit silly for my taste. I actually like the parts in his house though, in particular the dreams the hobbits have and the paragraphs describing his tales: 

Quote

Suddenly Tom’s talk left the woods and went leaping up the young stream, over bubbling waterfalls, over pebbles and worn rocks, and among small flowers in close grass and wet crannies, wandering at last up on to the Downs. They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. Green walls and white walls rose. There were fortresses on the heights. Kings of little kingdoms fought together, and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords. There was victory and defeat; and towers fell, fortresses were burned, and flames went up into the sky. Gold was piled on the biers of dead kings and queens; and mounds covered them, and the stone doors were shut; and the grass grew over all. Sheep walked for a while biting the grass, but soon the hills were empty again. A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind. Stone rings grinned out of the ground like broken teeth in the moonlight.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I think Tom Bombadil is fascinating as a concept, but Tolkien's handling of him is too inherently silly.

That said, the section contains the gloriously snigger-worthy passage:

Tom put his mouth to the crack and began singing into it in a low voice. They could not catch the words, but evidently Merry was aroused. His legs began to kick. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

I think Tom Bombadil is fascinating as a concept, but Tolkien's handling of him is too inherently silly.

That said, the section contains the gloriously snigger-worthy passage:

Tom put his mouth to the crack and began singing into it in a low voice. They could not catch the words, but evidently Merry was aroused. His legs began to kick. 

You can have a lot of fun, taking things out of their original context.

Swallows and Amazons has three characters called Able Seaman Titty, Salty Seaman, and Roger the Ship's Boy.

[Ser Drewy]

Came across this: 

Has this been posted before? Christopher Tolkien is a wonderful fellow, but he is advancing in years. I worry. I'm happy to see him still relishing his father's brilliant work. But... I worry his days are coming to an end.