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Tolkien 3.0


SeanF

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On 5/9/2019 at 10:50 AM, SeanF said:

You can have a lot of fun, taking things out of their original context.

Swallows and Amazons has three characters called Able Seaman Titty, Salty Seaman, and Roger the Ship's Boy.

Oh, and Aubrey and Maturin rescued a shipload of Lesbians from pirates in one of their stories.

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6 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

Came across this: 

Has this been posted before? Christopher Tolkien is a wonderful fellow, but he is advancing in years. I worry. I'm happy to see him still relishing his father's brilliant work. But... I worry his days are coming to an end. :(

Thanks for sharing that. Time passes for all of us, but it's wonderful CT is still well enough at 94 years of age to be able to make a visit to an exhibition like this of his father's work. 

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https://twitter.com/HeerJeet/status/1135741806342287360

16 points are made regarding the evolution of sf/f as the current reference points of political discourse -- we get to  Tolkien toward the end of the thread's points.  The first one:

Quote

 

So I have a few thoughts on H.G. Wells, Henry James, Hugh Kenner, Guy Davenport, National Review & how sci-fi & fantasy became the lingua franca of political discourse.


 

 

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One thing I have noticed about Tolkien is how he actually pulls off "hidden king/prince" trope quite well. Yes, Aragorn had been in exile for a long time... but:

1) he had only been told of his parentage only when he was old enough to understand responsibility that comes with it (and not just rights)

2) he actually was raised in a way that prepared him to rule Gondor - remember that Elrond is also a ruler of Rivendell, and Aragorn later became chieftan of Dunedain

His whole life was preparation for the throne, so it makes sense that he will be a good ruler. And that is one of problems in typical "hidden prince" trope, expecting a guy with no preparation to be a good ruler.

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3 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

One thing I have noticed about Tolkien is how he actually pulls off "hidden king/prince" trope quite well. Yes, Aragorn had been in exile for a long time... but:

1) he had only been told of his parentage only when he was old enough to understand responsibility that comes with it (and not just rights)

2) he actually was raised in a way that prepared him to rule Gondor - remember that Elrond is also a ruler of Rivendell, and Aragorn later became chieftan of Dunedain

His whole life was preparation for the throne, so it makes sense that he will be a good ruler. And that is one of problems in typical "hidden prince" trope, expecting a guy with no preparation to be a good ruler.

That is true.  He had a claim to the throne by birth (and there would surely have been lots of people in Gondor who were descended from one or other King) but he had to earn the right to be King, through success in war.

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18 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That is true.  He had a claim to the throne by birth (and there would surely have been lots of people in Gondor who were descended from one or other King) but he had to earn the right to be King, through success in war.

Actually, my point was that he had actual training and preparation for rulership, which is what differs from your typical "hidden prince" trope (e.g. Daenerys apparently had no preparation, Jon Snow only has preparation in form of his leadership of Night's Watch, and in legends, King Arthur grew up as a son of a nobleman with no knowledge of his ancestry or any preparation). 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Did you guys know about that stuff?

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/tolkien-altar-boy-life-torment-15428559

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/28/jrr-tolkiens-son-claims-sexually-abuse-fathers-friend

I just stumbled on those links in a German article on Tolkien, and really don't know what do say.

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13 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Did you guys know about that stuff?

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/tolkien-altar-boy-life-torment-15428559

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/28/jrr-tolkiens-son-claims-sexually-abuse-fathers-friend

I just stumbled on those links in a German article on Tolkien, and really don't know what do say.

I remember seeing allegations against John Tolkien a few years ago. In the absence of a proper police pursuit (too late now, of course), we can't do anything other than speculate. The tape recording of the elderly cleric talking about boyhood in the 1920s was also really interesting - in a disturbing sense. If true, it really does testify to the inter-generational nature of the abuse culture.

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On 6/24/2019 at 7:15 PM, Lord Varys said:

Did you guys know about that stuff?

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/tolkien-altar-boy-life-torment-15428559

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/apr/28/jrr-tolkiens-son-claims-sexually-abuse-fathers-friend

I just stumbled on those links in a German article on Tolkien, and really don't know what do say.

Yes.

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On 6/25/2019 at 1:34 AM, The Marquis de Leech said:

I remember seeing allegations against John Tolkien a few years ago. In the absence of a proper police pursuit (too late now, of course), we can't do anything other than speculate. The tape recording of the elderly cleric talking about boyhood in the 1920s was also really interesting - in a disturbing sense. If true, it really does testify to the inter-generational nature of the abuse culture.

If John was not just trying to play the pity card there then being raised by the Tolkiens cannot have been a pleasant experience to put it mildly. I mean, yeah, okay, if you have guests and don't have all that much space adults and children may have to share a bedroom on occasion, but that's certainly not the same thing as one of your friends routinely sharing a bed with your eldest son when he is staying overnight. You have to willfully turning a blind eye to that kind of thing if you allow that to happen.

On 6/26/2019 at 3:17 AM, The Marquis de Leech said:

My belated review of the biopic.

Watched the thing yesterday afternoon (they no show it in the evenings) and I was the only person in the theater ;-).

I think they got the spirit of the TCBS right, especially the fact that he felt the burden of carrying the torch of the group. Although it is very odd that there is no final scene with Christopher there, to show how the war affected him. Tolkien just mentioning that just feels wrong within the framework of the movie.

Also really liked Tolkien's petty jealousy.

But that's about the only positive thing. Didn't really care at all for the weirdo kid vibe they gave Tolkien, nor the hallucinations nonsense - which essentially makes him look almost like a lunatic. And if they wanted to do the hallucinations stuff, why make it silly references to the Lord of the Rings. Why not have mechanical dragons there, hinting at the fact that the trenches influenced the writing process of 'The Fall of Gondolin'? Why not, you know, give us Edith writing down the Lost Tales, as she did? Why not dwell on Beren and Lúthien and the hemlock dances?

Drawing a straight line from the trenches to 'The Hobbit' is an utter disgrace. 'The Hobbit' is a silly book for children, it is not even remotely at the heart of what the man wrote and wanted to write his entire life. And then that stupid scene where he is practically telling the children the plot of LotR before he even started 'The Hobbit'. That's just silly. The wrote and wanted to write mythology. He did not want to 

The way this movie was framing things we should have gotten stuff about the Silmarillion complex, but, no, that's not stuff the audience knows much/anything about.

Bottom line is, this movie failed to actually properly convey or hint at Tolkien's artistic approaches. Even the language thing comes off as rather stupid since that was also partially influenced by him inventing secret languages as a child - languages he actually shared with a playmate.

But, in the end, Tolkien's life is also not very interesting. He marries a woman who lived in the same house, and he only dares to walk on the grass when he is drunk.

Not covering his religious issues was a good idea, since those would have made him look very unsympathetic. He practically forced Edith to convert and she was not happy about that and severe issues with Tolkien's religious practices later in life.

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But here's the thing - the film didn't have the rights to any aspect of The Silmarillion stories (that's why they don't use the names Beren and Luthien), and of the viewers that are familiar with The Silmarillion, only a few would get the reference to mechanical dragons. People know Tolkien as the guy who wrote about hobbits and rings and dark lords. Presenting him as a guy who writes about mechanical dragons is going to elicit outright confusion.

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18 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

But here's the thing - the film didn't have the rights to any aspect of The Silmarillion stories (that's why they don't use the names Beren and Luthien), and of the viewers that are familiar with The Silmarillion, only a few would get the reference to mechanical dragons. People know Tolkien as the guy who wrote about hobbits and rings and dark lords. Presenting him as a guy who writes about mechanical dragons is going to elicit outright confusion.

Is the Tolkien Estate really that petty to force people making a JRRT movie to not actually reference stuff that was important to him? I mean, nobody would have wanted them to tell the Lost Tales in the movie, just reference the writing and some of the plot. But there is basically nothing about Tolkien's aesthetic vision and goals in this movie - nothing about him wanting to create a mythology for England, nothing about him writing very long lays with his characters based on Old English literature, etc.

If they wanted to reference the Hobbit and what came after the movie should have focused on Tolkien's life in the 1930s, with, perhaps, some flashbacks to World War I when Christopher goes overseas.

And, of course, mechanical dragons actually do make sense as hallucination in the trenches - they are closer to actual tanks, and can thus come across as more horrible if they are created just right. With all that fantasy imagery Tolkien comes across as a loony who just wants to escape from the world and reality, not as somebody who is traumatized - especially since he apparently had those 'visions' since he was a young boy.

Oh, and while I understand why they cut Catholic stuff, it would have been a nice touch to actually include the fact that Edith was an illegitimate child who never revealed the identity of her father to her children while she lived. It affected her greatly, and it seems rather obvious that this would have also been an elephant in the room in her youth.

But I have to admit that a focus on the religious issues could also have made a fine narrative for a movie - Mabel's conversion in 1900, the reaction of the family, her death, Tolkien interpreting/making sense of her death as the death of a martyr for her faith, and the effects this had on his own emotional attachment to religion, etc. With that baggage attached one could also have included Edith's forced conversion when they married.

That could have made a nice coherent narrative, although I'm pretty sure it would have been not the kind of movie that connects with a modern mainstream audience. But, in the end, one watches movies about people because one wants to learn something about those people, not because one wants to watch a completely invented story, right?

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Oh, I definitely agree that they should have put in the Mythology for England stuff. That, and Kalevala, could have been dealt with in a short scene, and it would have improved things immeasurably.

Using the names Beren and Luthien in a money-making venture (which this film is) would incur the wrath of the Estate. It's why Peter Jackson had to tiptoe around the Blue Wizards - if you don't have the rights to it, don't use the names.

The religion angle would make a genuinely fascinating film - Tolkien did remember how Mabel's family had disowned her - but it would be too dark and weird (and of course religious) for a mainstream audience. It'd also turn Tolkien into an anti-hero, between Edith, and then becoming a grumpy old man who still uses Latin during post-Vatican II Masses. 

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9 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Oh, I definitely agree that they should have put in the Mythology for England stuff. That, and Kalevala, could have been dealt with in a short scene, and it would have improved things immeasurably.

Using the names Beren and Luthien in a money-making venture (which this film is) would incur the wrath of the Estate. It's why Peter Jackson had to tiptoe around the Blue Wizards - if you don't have the rights to it, don't use the names.

The religion angle would make a genuinely fascinating film - Tolkien did remember how Mabel's family had disowned her - but it would be too dark and weird (and of course religious) for a mainstream audience. It'd also turn Tolkien into an anti-hero, between Edith, and then becoming a grumpy old man who still uses Latin during post-Vatican II Masses. 

The names Beren and Luthien were mentioned by Aragorn in extrnded fotr cut

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3 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The names Beren and Luthien were mentioned by Aragorn in extrnded fotr cut

And Aragorn shares part of the Lay in LotR for the Hobbits, so yeah, there's no real problem mentioning characters that are mentioned in LotR, near as I can tell. But the details of their story, since they generally don't appear in LotR, yeah, that requires rights to The Silmarillion.

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I was going to say, Beren and Luthien are mentioned in 'The Knife in the Dark' (great chapter, heh) and Strider sings a translation of their song and describes the overall adventure they had. It's not in detail - for example, they can't mention Sauron's role in the story with the werewolves, nor Huan, or the sons of Feanor - but it is in there. So they might've been able to slip a reference in there. I haven't seen the film myself, something about it hold me back. 

Incidentally, after resolving some personal stuff, I can finally get back to finishing LOTR. I'm going to start ROTK tomorrow. Excited. 

Am I the only one a bit peeved that no adaptation of LOTR has included the great part with the Rohirrim camping post-Hornburg when the Huorns pass them by as this dark twisted, growling mass in the night? It's a really interesting moment, rife with visual potential, but I don't think any adaptation - film or game or whatever - has really depicted it. 

For clarity, this bit: 

Quote

They camped beside the bed of the Isen river; it was still silent and empty. Some of them slept a little. But late in the night the watchmen cried out, and all awoke. The moon was gone. Stars were shining above; but over the ground there crept a darkness blacker than the night. On both sides of the river it rolled towards them, going northward.

‘Stay where you are!’ said Gandalf. ‘Draw no weapons! Wait! and it will pass you by!’

A mist gathered about them. Above them a few stars still glimmered faintly; but on either side there arose walls of impenetrable gloom; they were in a narrow lane between moving towers of shadow. Voices they heard, whisperings and groanings and an endless rustling sigh; the earth shook under them. Long it seemed to them that they sat and were afraid; but at last the darkness and the rumour passed, and vanished between the mountain’s arms.

Away south upon the Hornburg, in the middle night men heard a great noise, as a wind in the valley, and the ground trembled; and all were afraid and no one ventured to go forth. But in the morning they went out and were amazed; for the slain Orcs were gone, and the trees also. Far down into the valley of the Deep the grass was crushed and trampled brown, as if giant herdsmen had pastured great droves of cattle there; but a mile below the Dike a huge pit had been delved in the earth, and over it stones were piled into a hill. Men believed that the Orcs whom they had slain were buried there; but whether those who had fled into the wood were with them, none could say, for no man ever set foot upon that hill. The Death Down it was afterwards called, and no grass would grow there. But the strange trees were never seen in Deeping-coomb again; they had returned at night, and had gone far away to the dark dales of Fangorn. Thus they were revenged upon the Orcs.

 

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