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Tolkien 3.0


SeanF

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15 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Hey, The Soviet Hobbit is the second-best adaptation of the book. I'd sooner watcher that than Peter Jackson's version.

Well that just made my jaw drop a bit. 

If only because I'm amazed that knowledge of it exists outside the Russophone world.

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1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Stuck in lockdown, so have just written a 6,600 word essay on the Balrog Wing Question:

https://phuulishfellow.wordpress.com/2020/04/06/the-time-has-come-the-walrus-said-do-balrogs-have-wings/

As you do.

Nice.

Wrong, but nice.

(The Balrog under Moria has wings made of shadows, immaterial but terrifying. It is known.)

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Alas, it's impossible to read that grey print on a black background.  Black background for extensive text just doesn't work.

And I have a very good computer and big screen.

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Why not? If he had literally put some of his power in a physical thing why is it not plausible that he needs to be in physical contact to enhance his power with the help of that artifact.

Most "magic" in actual magical traditions is very physical, think of voodoo dolls etc. (it's hardly ever "supernatural" in the sense of not being closely connected with material substances) and Tolkien's "lore" does not seem to be an exception because a lot of special powers are somehow connected with artifacts.

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8 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Alas, it's impossible to read that grey print on a black background.  Black background for extensive text just doesn't work.

And I have a very good computer and big screen.

CTRL+P for a print preview that'll sort that out.

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2 hours ago, Jo498 said:

Why not? If he had literally put some of his power in a physical thing why is it not plausible that he needs to be in physical contact to enhance his power with the help of that artifact.

Most "magic" in actual ,magical traditions is very physical, think of voodoo dolls etc. (it's hardly ever "supernatural" in the sense of not being closely connected with material substances) and Tolkien's "lore" does not seem to be an exception because a lot of special powers are somehow connected with artifacts.

Okay.  It just seems odd.  The ring is sort of a mini-Sauron corrupting anyone who uses it.  Therefore, given that it is explicitly stated that the Ring has its own independent will it seems odd that the physical separation would impair its use or that it would give much benefit to Sauron if he actually had possession of the ring.  

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8 hours ago, Zorral said:

Alas, it's impossible to read that grey print on a black background.  Black background for extensive text just doesn't work.

And I have a very good computer and big screen.

Try here

With regard to readability, I boosted up the font size recently, and have been avoiding larger paragraphs. The issue is that when I first set up the blog, I never realised that others might struggle to read it - I'm rather stuck with this Blog Theme now, so I try to mitigate the problems. 

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7 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Okay.  It just seems odd.  The ring is sort of a mini-Sauron corrupting anyone who uses it.  Therefore, given that it is explicitly stated that the Ring has its own independent will it seems odd that the physical separation would impair its use or that it would give much benefit to Sauron if he actually had possession of the ring.  

The power that the Ring confers on Sauron ( and potentially people like Saruman, Gandalf, and Galadriel) is to control and dominate the wills of others and to read their minds.  I think it would be natural for that power to be enhanced if Sauron had it on his finger.

Corrupting others is a secondary effect.  Gandalf could use the Ring to destroy Sauron.  Gandalf would eventually be corrupted into a tyrant, but that would be cold comfort to Sauron, who would either have been killed, or enslaved by Gandalf.

For any powerful being, possession of the Ring enables them to create vast subservient armies.

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This is all true but does not even seem to use the fact that Sauron is the creator and original master of the ring. So it is very likely that he gets a special "power boost" when in possession of the ring. One could think of it that they are especially aligned with each other, for obvious reasons, such that the Ring does not have to work against the will and character of its wielder when wielded by its original master.

But of course a very important point (far more relevant to the plot than what actually happens if Sauron regains the Ring) is that Sauron must not allow the Ring in the hands of someone who is close to his power level, especially not Maia like the two wizards. Not sure if someone like Aragorn with the Ring could prevail against Sauron or would rather gradually turn into a special kind or Ringwraith.

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9 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

This is all true but does not even seem to use the fact that Sauron is the creator and original master of the ring. So it is very likely that he gets a special "power boost" when in possession of the ring. One could think of it that they are especially aligned with each other, for obvious reasons, such that the Ring does not have to work against the will and character of its wielder when wielded by its original master.

But of course a very important point (far more relevant to the plot than what actually happens if Sauron regains the Ring) is that Sauron must not allow the Ring in the hands of someone who is close to his power level, especially not Maia like the two wizards. Not sure if someone like Aragorn with the Ring could prevail against Sauron or would rather gradually turn into a special kind or Ringwraith.

Agreed, as to the first paragraph.

I think that Tolkien's letters (which imply that only a Maia, or just possibly Galadriel or Elrond) could have used the Ring successfully against Sauron somewhat contradict the text of the story, which indicates that any powerful person could use the Ring to harm Sauron.  Sauron had a crisis of confidence when Aragorn revealed his existence to him;  and according to Gandalf he was frightened that any "mighty one among us" could use the Ring with effect against him.  Sauron would know better than anyone what a wielder of the Ring would be capable of.  I think that if Aragorn had claimed the Ring for his own, he wouldn't necessarily have the power to destroy Sauron one on one (and the Ring would still be naturally aligned to Sauron) but he could have taken control of the wills of many of Sauron's soldiers, and turned them against him.  He might even have taken control of the wills of the Ringwraiths.

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I agree. It seems obvious that Sauron without the Ring and after his defeat at the end of the 2nd age is comparably weak on his own and rather dependent on his core lieutenants such as the Nazgul and on the sheer numbers of his armies.

And while I don't think Scott's puzzlement wrt Sauron's power enhancement with the Ring is justified, there is justified puzzlement about whether the Nazgul are more aligned to the Ring (and maybe a current wielder) or to its original master. In the book, it clearly seems that they are controlled by Sauron, not by the Ring which might seem the more logical option. But Frodo also clearly has no real control over the Ring. Someone like Aragorn could "master" the Ring in a very different fashion.

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I don't think I was ever much invested in the Balrog wing question although probably influenced by the movies, more on the pro-wing side. The Marquis mostly convinced me. For a ca. 2 m tall Balrog a wing span of about 5m would be plausible which would not extend to the ceiling and walls of a large hall. They would have to be about twice that which would make the Balrog huge or disproportional like an Albatros (i.e. clumsy when NOT flying, and wings or not, they are never shown flying). It would also imply that he'd get stuck too frequently in Moria to be much of a threat ;) (Of course he could have both real wings AND a larger shadowlike aura of darkness.) It seems obvious from the description of the battle with Glorfindel that the "old Balrogs" could not fly and very likely had no wings. I also immediately thought of the stress on the winged dragons as a new and terrible force of Morgoth in the Sil. This would not make sense with flying Balrogs. already at his disposal.

As the Marquis pointed out in another essay, the Balrog in Moria is something like a Cosmic horror. From this perspective, it makes sense that the Balrog is truly alien (although from another age, not outer space) to everyone but Gandalf and everyone is so stunned and scared that the description has to become hazy. It's like all the lore and background and buildings and ruins that add a huge depth to LotR, even more so when looked at as a standalone without nerd/RPG style accounting for everything and everyone. It has to remain somewhat hazy and everything is quite mysterious. Why does the Balrog sleep/hide for two ages? Why does he apparently nap for some time again before again roused by the fellowship? There seems again a tension between the very old Balrogs who were elite troops but plentiful and the revised ideas that they were only a few (half or maybe at most one dozen) and (as Maia) very powerful captains of Morgoth. The latter option makes the behavior of the Moria Balrog even more puzzling? Why does a "chaotic evil" being that could be one of the major players in ME keep sleeping and napping? Apparently he did lose considerable power and motivation after the fall of Thangorodrim...

All this works best when these questions are not really pondered but the Balrog (like the watcher in the water, even like Tom Bombadil, the evil willow and the barrowwights) simply adds more depth to the world that is deep and dangerous and not put into the tables, monster classes and dice rolls of an RPG and neither captured within a dozen of companion books for the fans.

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7 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Try here

With regard to readability, I boosted up the font size recently, and have been avoiding larger paragraphs. The issue is that when I first set up the blog, I never realised that others might struggle to read it - I'm rather stuck with this Blog Theme now, so I try to mitigate the problems. 

Thanks -- That works!  Just sayin' -- each time you link to your essays, you might include this link too?  

Comment on readability from all times I've gone to Phule, and then gave it up as impossible -- the boosting of font isn't helping because there is so much other stuff including bottom banners that fills up the screen there is little left for the text.

 

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1 hour ago, Zorral said:

Thanks -- That works!  Just sayin' -- each time you link to your essays, you might include this link too?  

Comment on readability from all times I've gone to Phule, and then gave it up as impossible -- the boosting of font isn't helping because there is so much other stuff including bottom banners that fills up the screen there is little left for the text.

Will do.

I can't actually see the bottom banners myself (occasionally auto ads come up because it's a free Wordpress site, and Wordpress likes to do this because it's trying to get me to fork out for one of their paid plans. But screw that). The non-ad pictures are my insertion, because without them, the site really would be unreadable.

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13 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Will do.

I can't actually see the bottom banners myself (occasionally auto ads come up because it's a free Wordpress site, and Wordpress likes to do this because it's trying to get me to fork out for one of their paid plans. But screw that). The non-ad pictures are my insertion, because without them, the site really would be unreadable.

Thank you!  We all do our best, that's for sure, with our digital masters.  :D

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