Tolkien 3.0

[The Marquis de Leech]

A look at Tolkien's non-Middle-earth stories.

(Plus an easier to read version).

[Ser Drewy]

https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/

Seems he has been taking on the strategies of the Hornburg over the last few weeks. Interesting reading, once again. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

5 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-i-bargaining-for-goods-at-helms-gate/

Seems he has been taking on the strategies of the Hornburg over the last few weeks. Interesting reading, once again. 

Yep. The sheer effort of calculated logistics that Tolkien put into Helm's Deep and Pelennor Fields is incredible. By contrast, Jackson's handling of pretty much every battle is nonsensical. 

On the other hand, Jackson was gunning for drama, rather than logic, and it only hurts the films when the viewer notices.  

[mcbigski]

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Yep. The sheer effort of calculated logistics that Tolkien put into Helm's Deep and Pelennor Fields is incredible. By contrast, Jackson's handling of pretty much every battle is nonsensical. 

On the other hand, Jackson was gunning for drama, rather than logic, and it only hurts the films when the viewer notices.  

So Jackson's treatment wasn't bad at all, so long as we weren't paying attention? 

[The Marquis de Leech]

16 minutes ago, mcbigski said:

So Jackson's treatment wasn't bad at all, so long as we weren't paying attention? 

Or at least sufficiently distracted by Drama, Coolness, or Uplifting Music not to think too closely about the realism of the battles. Every work of fiction has this - Tolkien has Mirkwood located in the rain shadow of the Misty Mountains, Martin has oak trees growing North of the Wall.  

[Ser Drewy]

8 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Yep. The sheer effort of calculated logistics that Tolkien put into Helm's Deep and Pelennor Fields is incredible. By contrast, Jackson's handling of pretty much every battle is nonsensical. 

On the other hand, Jackson was gunning for drama, rather than logic, and it only hurts the films when the viewer notices.  

It's interesting, but there seems to be very few aspects of world-building that Tolkien didn't seriously think about. He even wrote in depth about the Nazgul's movements when searching for the Ring. This blog series has me interested in what the Fords of Isen piece in Unfinished Tales might add. 

I think the weirdest element of Jackson's treatment is trying to frame going to the strong 'never been breached' fortress as the poor option, but riding out to open war when they know nothing about Isengard's strength as the path of wisdom. 

Jackson's treatment of the battles is very Braveheart-esque, where armies primarily just charge at each other. (Although Gibson seems to understand how pikes work, at least... )

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

21 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Yep. The sheer effort of calculated logistics that Tolkien put into Helm's Deep and Pelennor Fields is incredible. By contrast, Jackson's handling of pretty much every battle is nonsensical. 

On the other hand, Jackson was gunning for drama, rather than logic, and it only hurts the films when the viewer notices.  

I notice... every time.

[The Marquis de Leech]

13 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

It's interesting, but there seems to be very few aspects of world-building that Tolkien didn't seriously think about. He even wrote in depth about the Nazgul's movements when searching for the Ring. This blog series has me interested in what the Fords of Isen piece in Unfinished Tales might add. 

I think the weirdest element of Jackson's treatment is trying to frame going to the strong 'never been breached' fortress as the poor option, but riding out to open war when they know nothing about Isengard's strength as the path of wisdom. 

Jackson's treatment of the battles is very Braveheart-esque, where armies primarily just charge at each other. (Although Gibson seems to understand how pikes work, at least... )

Geology and geography (Mirkwood, the Mountains of Mordor). Economics (and how did Angband feed itself?). Tolkien had his interests, and it shows.

[Ser Drewy]

9 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Geology and geography (Mirkwood, the Mountains of Mordor). Economics (and how did Angband feed itself?). Tolkien had his interests, and it shows.

If I remember correctly, the Misty Mountains also don't really work as mountain ranges should.

[IlyaP]

33 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

If I remember correctly, the Misty Mountains also don't really work as mountain ranges should.

Also: fantasy? 

(Geological fidelity in fantasy is something I'm a bit fence-sit-y about. On the one hand, it's fantasy, but on the other hand, I dated a geologist for four years and so I get their pain.)

[The Grey Wolf]

@The Marquis de Leech

How does Mirkwood not stand up to scrutiny?

[The Marquis de Leech]

7 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

@The Marquis de Leech

How does Mirkwood not stand up to scrutiny?

It's in the rain shadow of the Misty Mountains. Basically, precipitation would rise off the Sea, get driven eastward by the prevailing wind, and condense into rain on the western side of the Mountains. Rivendell should be a very wet place. East of the Mountains should be dry... yet it is the home of a gigantic forest.

[Ran]

31 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

It's in the rain shadow of the Misty Mountains. Basically, precipitation would rise off the Sea, get driven eastward by the prevailing wind, and condense into rain on the western side of the Mountains. Rivendell should be a very wet place. East of the Mountains should be dry... yet it is the home of a gigantic forest.

There's a climate simuation which manages to place the rain shadow just in the immediate  eastern area of the Misties, and so predicts broadleaf forest predominance in the area marked as Mirkwood.

[Ser Drewy]

The blogger is still going, this time he's covering battle speeches and Tolkien's use of poetry. Last week he was discussing the weaponry of the Hornburg battle in the film. 

https://acoup.blog/2020/06/12/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-vii-hanging-by-a-thread/

[Veltigar]

On 6/12/2020 at 9:34 PM, Ser Drewy said:

The blogger is still going, this time he's covering battle speeches and Tolkien's use of poetry. Last week he was discussing the weaponry of the Hornburg battle in the film. 

https://acoup.blog/2020/06/12/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-vii-hanging-by-a-thread/

Love his writings in general!

[The Marquis de Leech]

Squeeeeeeeee!

https://www.tolkienguide.com/uploads/newbb/10_5eef7c72e5079.jpg

[Werthead]

 

On 5/31/2020 at 3:38 AM, The Marquis de Leech said:

Or at least sufficiently distracted by Drama, Coolness, or Uplifting Music not to think too closely about the realism of the battles. Every work of fiction has this - Tolkien has Mirkwood located in the rain shadow of the Misty Mountains, Martin has oak trees growing North of the Wall.  

Mirkwood's location is somewhat problematic, although there are ways around that (including the fact that the northern Misty Mountains seem lower than the southern ones, which would reduce the rain shadow effect).

The oak trees growing north of the Wall isn't a problem at all. Primordial oak trees grew near the Arctic Circle, and on Martinworld the Arctic Circle appears to be ~300 miles north of the Wall.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 6/24/2020 at 10:44 AM, Werthead said:

 

Mirkwood's location is somewhat problematic, although there are ways around that (including the fact that the northern Misty Mountains seem lower than the southern ones, which would reduce the rain shadow effect).

The oak trees growing north of the Wall isn't a problem at all. Primordial oak trees grew near the Arctic Circle, and on Martinworld the Arctic Circle appears to be ~300 miles north of the Wall.

North of the Wall is Permafrost. Oak trees can't manage that.

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

North of the Wall is Permafrost.

The tundra starts far north of the Wall, and so presumably the permafrost layer is also far north of it. In the nearer regions that we have seen in the novels, there is no permafrost and there is active agriculture (turnips, carrots, grains).

[Werthead]

3 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

North of the Wall is Permafrost. Oak trees can't manage that.

No, it isn't. The permafrost starts north of Thenn, 600 miles north of the Wall, not at the Wall itself. The Wall isn't even on the Arctic Circle (which is likely ~300 miles north of the Wall).