Tolkien 3.0

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

7 hours ago, Jo498 said:

I agree. It seems obvious that Sauron without the Ring and after his defeat at the end of the 2nd age is comparably weak on his own and rather dependent on his core lieutenants such as the Nazgul and on the sheer numbers of his armies.

And while I don't think Scott's puzzlement wrt Sauron's power enhancement with the Ring is justified, there is justified puzzlement about whether the Nazgul are more aligned to the Ring (and maybe a current wielder) or to its original master. In the book, it clearly seems that they are controlled by Sauron, not by the Ring which might seem the more logical option. But Frodo also clearly has no real control over the Ring. Someone like Aragorn could "master" the Ring in a very different fashion.

Exactly.  This is a change but are the Nazgul loyal to Sauron or to the One Ring?

[The Marquis de Leech]

59 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Exactly.  This is a change but are the Nazgul loyal to Sauron or to the One Ring?

They're loyal to the Nine Rings. Which Sauron had with him at Barad-dur.

(And which rather begs the question about the Last Alliance. Did Sauron (in spirit form) burgle the Dark Tower of the Nine Rings, to maintain control after his defeat?).

[Lord Varys]

My take on the Balrog wings question can be read here:

https://www.otherminds.net/downloads/other-minds/other-minds-magazine-issue-10.pdf/@@download/file/Other Minds Magazine Issue

I pride myself into believing that I settled the issue with this thing for all time. But that's probably my hubris talking.

I also wrote a fifty pages monster once on the mechanics of the Rings of Power, but that was done in German via I was still in school and I'm not going to translate that one unless I'm paid for it. But if there are any people out there who would like to practice there German reading it, I'll give you a link.

On 4/5/2020 at 9:58 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

I have a silly question, why did Sauron have to be in physical contact with the One Ring for it to enhance his power?

Because it is a Ring and you have to wear it to magically use it. It still helped Sauron that his substance was in there and that it existed, but not to the same degree.

[Lord Varys]

On 4/6/2020 at 6:55 PM, The Marquis de Leech said:

They're loyal to the Nine Rings. Which Sauron had with him at Barad-dur.

(And which rather begs the question about the Last Alliance. Did Sauron (in spirit form) burgle the Dark Tower of the Nine Rings, to maintain control after his defeat?).

Nah, the idea is that back then Sauron only had the One and he took the Nine later from the Nazgûl after he had taken form again at Dol Guldur.

This could also account for the relative freedom the various Nazgûl had prior to Sauron's return to Mordor and the rebuilding of Barad-dûr.

But then - assuming these creatures yet had 'personalities' or 'independent thoughts/desires' they could rediscover after the Dark Lord lost his Ruling Ring is pretty far-fetched. One should in general assume that the Nazgûl wanted to serve Sauron, having been completely enslaved by him during the SA.

The stuff about the spirit snatching rings is also a vexing question in relation to the fall of Númenor. In a letter Tolkien indicates Sauron took the Ring with him to Númenor (and Ar-Pharazôn didn't see it for what it was - which would be stupidity) and was able to bring it back with him in spirit form. But if this were possible then why the hell didn't 'spirit Sauron' take the Ring with him when he left his destroyed body after Gil-galad and Elendil had killed it?

It is a common misconception perpetrated by the Jackson nonsense that Sauron lost his power when the Ring was taken from him when in fact he was defeated by Elendil and Gil-galad while wearing the Ring. He killed them, but they killed him, too, and Isildur then went on to carve the Ring from Sauron's dying body/corpse. If Sauron had the time/power to take his Ring with him from under the sea there is no reason to assume he couldn't have taken it before Isildur started to carve it from his hand - or even afterwards snitching it from his fingers.

In that sense one should take the quotes from the Akallabêth and 'Of the Rings of Power' of Sauron taking up his Ring after his return from Númenor as a sign that he left it there to prevent the Númenóreans from taking it from him. Sauron would have been in a rather precarious position of Ar-Pharazôn had taken the Ruling Ring for himself.

But if Sauron left it in Barad-dûr, one doesn't face such problems, not to mention that this can help explain that Sauron's power in Middle-earth greatly waned during his absence. If he had worn the Ring the entire time he would have been mentally connected to the Nazgûl and could have continued to rule through them as if he had been there. But this didn't seem to have happened.

[Lord Varys]

As for the Ring's hold over the Nazgûl - Tolkien curiously enough compares the Ring to an object of religious worship when discussing what the hell the Nazgûl had done if they had ever reached Frodo in the Sammath Naur. I'm not sure that's the right comparison there. This thing was not just something very holy to the Nazgûl, but also the instrument they owed their continuing existence and power ... and it was an instrument that could be used to control them completely.

They were acting at Sauron's command but they could also not attack or contradict the wearer of the Ruling Ring. Hence leading to Tolkien's speculation that they would have tried to dissuade Frodo from his mission, doing him homage as their new master, offering to take him to Barad-dûr to see his seat of power ... all to get him out of the cave and destroy its entrance so that the Ring could not possibly be destroyed.

But it would fall to Sauron himself to retake the Ring from Frodo.

In those alternative scenarios one also has to consider the power weaker 'Ring lords' than Gandalf or Galadriel or Saruman could accomplish. If Aragorn or Denethor had taken the Ring and used it to challenge Sauron the way to defeat him wouldn't have been the kind of direct confrontation Gandalf could, perhaps, win, but to marshal a mighty army to invade Mordor and, most importantly, use the power of authority the Ring would grant its wearer to dissuade Sauron's allies and forces from supporting him.

The Nazgûl would be neutralized, would perhaps even betray Sauron to the new master of the Ring, many Orcs and men under Sauron's thrall would start thinking whether this new god-like leader might not be a better alternative. And then Sauron may have been destroyed by sheer numbers without ever having the opportunity to personally face the usurper who was mastering his Ring. Perhaps this wouldn't have gotten rid of him for good, but it would have taken him a long time to recover after such a blow.

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The stuff about the spirit snatching rings is also a vexing question in relation to the fall of Númenor. In a letter Tolkien indicates Sauron took the Ring with him to Númenor (and Ar-Pharazôn didn't see it for what it was - which would be stupidity) and was able to bring it back with him in spirit form. But if this were possible then why the hell didn't 'spirit Sauron' take the Ring with him when he left his destroyed body after Gil-galad and Elendil had killed it?

The Rings of Power very likely not even be visible to everybody. Not only was Gandalf able to carry arround his for centuries without anybody noticing, we also have this passage at the end of The Mirror of Galadriel:

Quote

‘You have not tried,’ she said. ‘Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring?’ she asked turning again to Sam.

‘No, Lady,’ he answered. ‘To tell you the truth, I wondered what you were talking about. I saw a star through your fingers. But if you’ll pardon my speaking out, I think my master was right. I wish you’d take his Ring. You’d put things to rights. You’d stop them digging up the Gaffer and turning him adrift. You’d make some folk pay for their dirty work.

’ ‘I would,’ she said. ‘That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas! We will not speak more of it. Let us go!’

Sam appears to be unable to even see a ring, let alone recognize it for what it is and Galadriel implies that Frodo could because he was somewhat familiar with a Ring of Power already.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

The Rings of Power very likely not even be visible to everybody. Not only was Gandalf able to carry arround his for centuries without anybody noticing, we also have this passage at the end of The Mirror of Galadriel:

Sam appears to be unable to even see a ring, let alone recognize it for what it is and Galadriel implies that Frodo could because he was somewhat familiar with a Ring of Power already.

Sauron's Ring was very visible at his burning hand when Isildur took it.

Sure, Sauron's 'nice guy' shape wouldn't have been that much 'clad in power' as the one he had to create after the fall of Númenor, but it would have still been a shape emanating power.

Even if Sauron had been trying to tone that down ... it strikes me as impossible that the power of the One Ring could be concealed from anyone with the insight and knowledge of the Númenóreans in their prime. Also keep in mind that three of the Nazgûl were supposedly great lords of the Númenóreans ... they wouldn't have gone missing/been corrupted by powerful Rings of Power without anyone in Númenor learning about that. In fact, they may have been in Númenor while they were corrupted, perhaps only for a time.

In that sense it would be very risky for Sauron to take the Ring with him. In fact, Ar-Pharazôn's power was so vast that Sauron's followers started to fear Númenor more than him ... which is the reason why Sauron chose to humble himself in the first place. Even his great instrument of power was no match to the power of the Númenóreans.

The Three Rings are different from the other sixteen Rings of Power (and the One, of course) in the sense that they are pure workings of elven craft, in principle based on the lore Annatar gave the to the smiths, but not containing any of the evil Sauron deliberately put into the Nine and the Seven (although it makes no sense to differentiate between these two batches - of the sixteen Rings of Power Sauron captured he gave out nine to men and seven to dwarves).

In that sense one could reason that Galadriel being able to disguise Nenya was something unique to the Three Rings (or perhaps only something she as a powerful bearer could do). After all, do we believe Narya gave Gandalf the ability to conceal it? Or was that something the Isatar Gandalf could do?

This also triggers the question why the hell Saruman never took Narya from Gandalf while he had him imprisoned. Also one of those things that are not easily answered. Best answer is that he didn't properly defeat him and only took him hostage - he also kept and fled with his staff, so that's that.

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sauron's Ring was very visible at his burning hand when Isildur took it.

To those present at the last confrontation certainly (Elrond, Cirdan, Gilgalad, Elendil and Isildur), but those already at least knew about the Rings

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, Sauron's 'nice guy' shape wouldn't have been that much 'clad in power' as the one he had to create after the fall of Númenor, but it would have still been a shape emanating power.

Even if Sauron had been trying to tone that down ... it strikes me as impossible that the power of the One Ring could be concealed from anyone with the insight and knowledge of the Númenóreans in their prime. Also keep in mind that three of the Nazgûl were supposedly great lords of the Númenóreans ... they wouldn't have gone missing/been corrupted by powerful Rings of Power without anyone in Númenor learning about that. In fact, they may have been in Númenor while they were corrupted, perhaps only for a time. 

While at that point the Numenoreans were undoubtedly at the peak of their military and political power, they were already long in decline spiritually. Their life expectancy was decreasing for example.

As for the Numenorean Nazgul: We can not really say how plausible their life stories really are since Tolkien never gave them.

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:



In that sense it would be very risky for Sauron to take the Ring with him. In fact, Ar-Pharazôn's power was so vast that Sauron's followers started to fear Númenor more than him ... which is the reason why Sauron chose to humble himself in the first place. Even his great instrument of power was no match to the power of the Númenóreans.

Letter 211 very much implies that the whole thing was more of a calculated decision by Sauron rather than an act of desperation. Sauron appears to have thought himself very much in control at the time.

 

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

The Three Rings are different from the other sixteen Rings of Power (and the One, of course) in the sense that they are pure workings of elven craft, in principle based on the lore Annatar gave the to the smiths, but not containing any of the evil Sauron deliberately put into the Nine and the Seven (although it makes no sense to differentiate between these two batches - of the sixteen Rings of Power Sauron captured he gave out nine to men and seven to dwarves).

They are however only other reference points we have.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

To those present at the last confrontation certainly (Elrond, Cirdan, Gilgalad, Elendil and Isildur), but those already at least knew about the Rings

Not sure how knowledge would influence sight in this instance.

7 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

While at that point the Numenoreans were undoubtedly at the peak of their military and political power, they were already long in decline spiritually. Their life expectancy was decreasing for example.

That would have nothing to do with the mastery they had over everything else. They had arts they lost later on - like building things like Orthanc and the walls of Minas Anor - and there is no indication that something as powerful as the Ruling Ring would have escaped their notice.

Keep in mind that this blasted thing is a symbol of ultimate power. It cannot be hidden or disguised like some trinket. That is why the Ring always resurfaces eventually, no matter where it is hidden. It cannot rest forever in the Anduin, just as it cannot stay forever in Gollum's cave, etc. I don't think it fits well with the concept of the Ruling Ring to imagine as it using its power to hide that very power. That would go contrary to everything it is supposed to be doing. If this could work then one should expect one could also use the Ring to do good or to destroy it. But that's apparently not possible.

7 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

As for the Numenorean Nazgul: We can not really say how plausible their life stories really are since Tolkien never gave them.

We do know there were Númenórean Nazgûl. That's more than enough to conclude that Númenor knew about the Nazgûl and thus also about the Rings of Power. Not to mention that the Númenóreans also came to the help of Gil-galad and Círdan in the wake of the destruction of Eregion. They may have learned about the Rings back then.

7 minutes ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

Letter 211 very much implies that the whole thing was more of a calculated decision by Sauron rather than an act of desperation. Sauron appears to have thought himself very much in control at the time.

Well, letter 211 also says the Ring would have been visible at Sauron's hand, but Ar-Pharazôn didn't realize what it was. If you want to go with that stuff, you cannot really pick and choose.

But those letters are private conversation, not material that was supposed to be published nor draft material to eventually be published. That's not something one should take too seriously, especially when there is material that contradicts it - and that's there. Sauron is said to have taken up his Ring either after his return to Mordor or after he had made himself a new body. Nothing indicates he had the Ring in his possession when he returned to Barad-dûr in spirit form. If you already have something in your material or immaterial hands you really don't need to take it up again. You already have it.

Nobody ever said anything about Sauron being desperate. We know his allies and people were deserting him, but Sauron's power base of Mordor and Barad-dûr was deep inland, and if it were assaulted by the Ar-Pharazôn who had landed as far south as Umbar, he could easily enough try to withstand a siege there or retreat to the farther East if he had to. Still, the landing of the Númenóreans was a massive blast to Sauron's hold over Middle-earth, that much is clear.

And he knew he could not defeat or challenge Númenor with his own military might. Hence he decided to corrupt them. Going there was still a risk, though. The Númenóreans could have slain him. They could have buried him alive in their dungeons on the island, etc. If Sauron had no opportunity to talk to the king, he wouldn't have been able to corrupt him.

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure how knowledge would influence sight in this instance. 

They would know what to look for and thus might actually be able to see through Sauron's concealment (that is if he even bothered at this point).

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That would have nothing to do with the mastery they had over everything else. They had arts they lost later on - like building things like Orthanc and the walls of Minas Anor - and there is no indication that something as powerful as the Ruling Ring would have escaped their notice. 

And none of that really relates to matters such as seeing through a deception. After all they got fooled into attacking Valinor. In RPG terms one could see that their Intelligence was still high, their Wisdom has rather low at this point (same would go for Saruman later)

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:



Keep in mind that this blasted thing is a symbol of ultimate power. It cannot be hidden or disguised like some trinket. That is why the Ring always resurfaces eventually, no matter where it is hidden. It cannot rest forever in the Anduin, just as it cannot stay forever in Gollum's cave, etc. I don't think it fits well with the concept of the Ruling Ring to imagine as it using its power to hide that very power. That would go contrary to everything it is supposed to be doing. If this could work then one should expect one could also use the Ring to do good or to destroy it. But that's apparently not possible. 

.But it was when Bilbo had it. Gandalf dismissed it as "just" some magic ring for a long time. True he had other things to worry about, but I suppose that the Numnenoreans were likewise blinded by Sauron's (initial) show of servility.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We do know there were Númenórean Nazgûl. That's more than enough to conclude that Númenor knew about the Nazgûl and thus also about the Rings of Power.

No. It might very well be that all of the future Nazgul "died" before anyone would recognize their transformation.

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention that the Númenóreans also came to the help of Gil-galad and Círdan in the wake of the destruction of Eregion. They may have learned about the Rings back then. 

Letter 211 indicates to opposite

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, letter 211 also says the Ring would have been visible at Sauron's hand, but Ar-Pharazôn didn't realize what it was. If you want to go with that stuff, you cannot really pick and choose. 

It does not. Here is the relevant passage:

Quote

But he then depends on them. Ar-Pharazôn, as is told in the ‘Downfall’ or Akallabêth, conquered a terrified Sauron’s subjects, not Sauron. Sauron’s personal ‘surrender’ was voluntary and cunning [fn7]: he got free transport to Númenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. In any case Ar-Pharazôn was not in communication with them. In the Tale of Years III p. 364 you will find hints of the trouble: ‘the Shadow falls on Númenor’. After Tar-Atanamir (an Elvish name) the next name is Ar-Adûnakhôr a Númenórean name. See p. 315.2 The change of names went with a complete rejection of the Elf-friendship, and of the ‘theological’ teaching the Númenóreans had received from them.)

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:



But those letters are private conversation, not material that was supposed to be published nor draft material to eventually be published.

They can however be used to fill in some of the blanks we have.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody ever said anything about Sauron being desperate. [...]

The point I was trying to make was that since Sauron went to Numenor completely voluntarily, he would leave the Ring behind out of fear since he still thought himself in control of the situation.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

They would know what to look for and thus might actually be able to see through Sauron's concealment (that is if he even bothered at this point).

With there not being any reason to assume the Ring was or could be concealed, there is really no reason to assume something like that.

2 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

And none of that really relates to matters such as seeing through a deception. After all they got fooled into attacking Valinor. In RPG terms one could see that their Intelligence was still high, their Wisdom has rather low at this point (same would go for Saruman later)

Thankfully Tolkien's works are not an RPG! The Númenóreans used the palantíri, they mastered quite a few things in their days. It doesn't convince me that they would not realize something like the One Ring when it was right there, worn by its maker and master. Those people all do have special insights and stuff, and are of the magical divine blood of Thingol and Melian and Tuor and Eärendil.

2 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

.But it was when Bilbo had it. Gandalf dismissed it as "just" some magic ring for a long time. True he had other things to worry about, but I suppose that the Numnenoreans were likewise blinded by Sauron's (initial) show of servility.

Gandalf didn't see it at the hand of Sauron.

2 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

No. It might very well be that all of the future Nazgul "died" before anyone would recognize their transformation.

The Nazgûl never died. The entire point of becoming a ring-wraith is that your life goes on and on. They would have simply disappeared, not died some death.

In fact, if you check the dates the Nazgûl - especially those Númenóreans - were rather quick in the making if you consider that Gollum is still a living being and not a wraith after nearly 600 years with the Ring, when the Nazgûl were already Nazgûl about 400 years after they first were given their rings by Sauron.

2 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

Letter 211 indicates to opposite

It does not. Here is the relevant passage:

Well, I don't buy it that Sauron needed the One Ring to corrupt the Númenóreans and their already corrupt and evil king, so that's that.

And there are the quotes which seem to contradict Tolkien's own claim that the Ring was in Sauron's 'spirit hands' when he returned from Númenor.

Tolkien's own claims that Númenóreans wouldn't know anything about Rings of Power and stuff also doesn't really ring true. They supported the anti-Sauron alliance back 1700 SA. Surely they would have found out that Sauron had been in Eregion before and had stolen some rings there. And then there comes the Númenórean Nazgûl business and, of course, also the general Nazgûl business who are around for about a millennium until Sauron is brought to Númenor himself.

Are we to believe the Númenóreans don't know anything about those Nazgûl, either. Three of them were Númenóreans, apparently, and there were six more, some of which may have come from regions of Middle-earth which the Númenóreans had colonized.

Are we to believe the ring-verse incorporating Sauron's own lines heralds from the TA?

Perhaps - perhaps - it is feasible that the Númenóreans had no idea about the Ruling Ring or how those Rings of Power and Sauron's own ring were connected, but that would still leave us with the fact that they would be rather interested in any rings the Dark Lord might be wearing...

2 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

They can however be used to fill in some of the blanks we have.

Or we can ignore them and just talk published literature. There are throwaway lines in a letter against stuff indicated in two text which were supposed to be published.

2 hours ago, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

The point I was trying to make was that since Sauron went to Numenor completely voluntarily, he would leave the Ring behind out of fear since he still thought himself in control of the situation.

Or not. He may have feared that bringing the Ring with him could result in them taking the Ring from him, and that would have been a very bad thing. Sauron never feared that anyone would destroy the Ring, but, since it was an artifact different from himself, it must have crossed his mind that he might lose it or that it might be taken from him by force.

Whatever Sauron planned, he was at the mercy of the Númenóreans and in their power. He had to talk himself out of being a prisoner/hostage to eventually win the trust and ear of the king, and that wouldn't have happened overnight.

What if they had decided that he had to give up all his shiny things for inspection or as tokens of his good will? What if the king demanded all of Sauron's worldly regalia as symbols of his submission?

And to we really believe Sauron would have needed the Ring to corrupt the already corrupt Númenóreans some more? He pulled off a similar stunt with the elves of Eregion without ever having a Ring of Power.

If you think about it - the Ring would be perfectly safe in the hands of the Nazgûl. They would have no idea what to do with it nor would they be able to use an object that had utterly enslaved them nor would they ever hand it to somebody else since that would mean this person could claim mastery over them. They would be the perfect guardians for the One Ring. Assuming Sauron couldn't just put it in some magical box in his tower.

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Thankfully Tolkien's works are not an RPG! The Númenóreans used the palantíri, they mastered quite a few things in their days. It doesn't convince me that they would not realize something like the One Ring when it was right there, worn by its maker and master. Those people all do have special insights and stuff, and are of the magical divine blood of Thingol and Melian and Tuor and Eärendil. 

The Palantiri had been made been made by the Elves however and were used by those Numenoreans who still have somewhat high wisdom (to continue the RPG analogy). The rest of the Numenoreans could not see through Sauron's deception despite their elvish and Maian ancestry, why would it then enable them to recognize the Ring for what it was, if they could see it at all? They have already shown themselves to have awful judgement. Keep in mind that unlike the Elves of Eregion, the Numenoreans knew that Sauron was a bad guy.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Nazgûl never died. The entire point of becoming a ring-wraith is that your life goes on and on. They would have simply disappeared, not died some death. 

Hence the ""

 I wanted to imply their deaths might have been faked.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And there are the quotes which seem to contradict Tolkien's own claim that the Ring was in Sauron's 'spirit hands' when he returned from Númenor.

Such as?

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tolkien's own claims that Númenóreans wouldn't know anything about Rings of Power and stuff also doesn't really ring true. They supported the anti-Sauron alliance back 1700 SA. Surely they would have found out that Sauron had been in Eregion before and had stolen some rings there. And then there comes the Númenórean Nazgûl business and, of course, also the general Nazgûl business who are around for about a millennium until Sauron is brought to Númenor himself. 

Knowlegde of the existence does not necessitate knowlegde of the nature of their creation nor does knowing that Sauron stole some magic rings (if they knew even that) mean that they were aware of the history behind those rings.

The problem is that you seem to assume that characters in the story have the same knowlegde as we the readers have and that does not need to be the case. Consider that the in-universe source for our knowlegde are Bilbo's translations of the books and scrolls in Elrond's library. Other characters in the world would not have that kind of access.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Are we to believe the ring-verse incorporating Sauron's own lines heralds from the TA?

The ring-verse comes from one dusty old scroll that Isildur himself wrote not long before he was killed and that was almost forgotten by the time Gandalf stumbled upon it.

The Elf-smiths of Eregion alos apparently when Sauron first put on the Ring

The longer poem is "a verse long known in Elven-lore

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps - perhaps - it is feasible that the Númenóreans had no idea about the Ruling Ring or how those Rings of Power and Sauron's own ring were connected, but that would still leave us with the fact that they would be rather interested in any rings the Dark Lord might be wearing...

That assumes that they knew about the Rings at all.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Or not. He may have feared that bringing the Ring with him could result in them taking the Ring from him, and that would have been a very bad thing. Sauron never feared that anyone would destroy the Ring, but, since it was an artifact different from himself, it must have crossed his mind that he might lose it or that it might be taken from him by force. [...]

Ok. Since you dismissed one piece of evidence that we have for Sauron's motivations, I do think that there is any reason to argue about this point further.

 

[Zorral]

This may or may not be interest to commentators. At the moment, several times in a week the LRB is putting up w/o pay wall articles out of the past that they hope will bring in new subscribers.  This one is prompted by, the then -- 2000 -- forthcoming Jackson films, by frequent London Review of Books contributor, Jenny Turner.

https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v23/n22/jenny-turner/reasons-for-liking-tolkien?utm_campaign=20200423 DTtwenty-eight&utm_content=usca_nonsubs&utm_medium=email&utm_source=LRB themed email

It's so, what I think of in these contexts, English!  Nor does it describe my own experience with LoTR, which began, I think, when 17? 18?, which led to me re-reading it several times a year thereafter until the Jackson films put paid to that.  My own love of LOTR never stopped me from loving equally passionately other works, such as everything by George Eliot, particularly Middlemarch, or from going on to discover new passions, and moving into what I hope were productive and useful paths of scholarship in areas that were considered, at least when I began, far outside the realms of literature and fiction.  I still do give myself credit for being among those within Lit and Fic to understand that they must not be divided from history and politics, which led to the new discipline in the USA, called American Studies.  I do believe strongly that writers such both Eliot and Tolkien helped me get there.  Both of these authors, just for two -- let's talk Tolstoy, Stendhal, Joyce, Eliot -- even Shakespeare, if we like -- certainly Dumas! -- were acutely aware of literature and story telling being one of the waves that the tides of history consisted.

 

 

[A wilding]

Yes, English Literature people in the UK always have a down on Tolkien. I think they must swear an oath or something. I had a friend who did an English Lit PhD who refused even to read it.

Basically I think there is a self reinforcing cycle going on. They say Tolkien is not very good, but nobody takes any notice, and LotR keeps appearing at the top of favourite books lists. This annoys them, they write more articles about Tolkien being not very good and people who like him having no taste, but still nobody takes any notice ...

[The Marquis de Leech]

Of Meat-Eating Elves

(And as requested the easier to read version)

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Of Meat-Eating Elves  

(And as requested the easier to read version)

There was a rather good fanfic I enjoyed, written from the POV of Galadriel, which explained why many elves were vegetarian.  It was because they had to resort to cannibalism, while crossing the Helcaraxe.  

[The Marquis de Leech]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

There was a rather good fanfic I enjoyed, written from the POV of Galadriel, which explained why many elves were vegetarian.  It was because they had to resort to cannibalism, while crossing the Helcaraxe.  

Oooh nice. There's a fair amount of scope for horror fic in the Helcaraxe, I think. Not just cannibalism either. I imagine some of them going mad from spending 27 years in the frozen darkness.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Oooh nice. There's a fair amount of scope for horror fic in the Helcaraxe, I think. Not just cannibalism either. I imagine some of them going mad from spending 27 years in the frozen darkness.

I can imagine that elves would be horrified by cannibalism even more than men or hobbits.  OTOH, they'd be seeing their children dying like flies, and they'd do anything to keep their children alive, and to stay alive for them.  I would guess for most of the time, they'd have migrated through tundra, in which there would at least be some game, and they might have camped in the same spot for some time.

Come to think of it, there is hardly a Noldorin elf who did not end up dying horribly in Middle Earth.

The fic made clear just what a curse Elvish memory is;  by contrast mens' memories gradually fade, making it easier to cope with horrible things in the past.  Galadriel just can't forget how good fellow elves tasted, when she was experiencing the extremities of hunger.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Since they'd have access to the Sea, they'd have access to fish, seals, walruses, seagulls, and such. As well as lembas, obviously.

Elven corpses apparently disintegrate faster than human ones.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I am forced to abandon the Fernyite Heresy, and embrace the True Path of Nazgulism:

A Belated Burying of Bafflement: Bree, Bolsters, Bill Ferny, and Black Riders

(The easier to read version here)