UK Politics: Austerity has ended - More cuts to come.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

On 11/28/2018 at 8:03 AM, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Either way, I must give her some credit for another political move however. Issuing that challenge to Corbyn for a TV debate on Brexit was really brilliant. As that would force to clarify actually take a position on Brexit. This isn't gonna end well for him. So of course he wants this debate to be on a broader level than just Brexit, oh, and also no Remainers must apply.

For the record, dear BBC bosses, if you read this. Don't you freaking dare to postpone the Doctor Who series finale for those two clowns agreeing with each other on Brexit.

 

I heard something on NPR about the debate and want to know if it's true. They said the two can't decide on a day and time due to not wanting to run up against a few popular shows. Is this for real? 

[williamjm]

59 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I heard something on NPR about the debate and want to know if it's true. They said the two can't decide on a day and time due to not wanting to run up against a few popular shows. Is this for real? 

I think the real disagreement is about the format of the debate - Corbyn seems to prefer the head-to-head format that ITV are suggesting but May prefers the BBC format where there's more audience participation. Corbyn did also joke he didn't want to miss a reality TV show finale.

I bet the TV companies would prefer to go straight to the heart of the issues and stage a Johnson vs Johnson debate, with Jo Johnson making the case for a second referendum and Boris making the case for whatever bizarre collection of non-sequiturs he's come up with this week.

[Which Tyler]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46407249

And another cabinet minister resigns over May's deal -this time a remainer; and over the details that we'll be left out of the Galileo project.

Apparently it's surprising that being outside of the EU means the the EU would put EU interests ahead of UK interests.

 

 

Mind you; it does seem that we were intially told to hate the EU because the EU was terrible at protecting its members' interests; and that negotiation would be a piece of cake (that we could then eat).

Now we seem to be being told to hate the EU because the EU is actually quite good at protecting its members' interests; and they aren't being a push over for our negotiators.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

10 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I heard something on NPR about the debate and want to know if it's true. They said the two can't decide on a day and time due to not wanting to run up against a few popular shows. Is this for real? 

That was intended as a bit of a joke, the background for it slightly different.

I read somewhere (yes, I can't produce the source, sorry), that the TV debate had a bit of a scheduling problem. The problem was more the channel (presumably the BBC at the time) needs time to organize it, and that their program schedule is actually already set. So the next possible date available apparently would've been (according to the unnamed article), the same day the BBC wants to air (among other things) the Doctor Who season finale. And the executives were sure, that it would be such a great idea to move it, as that has the real potential to upset the viewers, despite the gravity of Brexit. That was also what I was poking fun at (me as the outraged viewer who will not have his Doctor Who season finale postponed - add to that, that I am not even a Brit and do not live there (so I am no stakeholder in that debate), so there's really no upside to this debate for ME), well, that and the effect, that a debate would actually require two opposing views.

 

[mormont]

No opposing views? Surely the choice is clear. Both sides agree that we cannot remain in the customs union, but one prefers a customs union, whereas the other proposes a temporary customs arrangement. Riveting TV.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Somehow I still think (or rather hope) that the Doctor Who season finale has the better written drama or conflicts. Afterall, Moffat is gone, so I am mildly optimistic that the Doctor will be less disappointing than JayCee and Terry.

[Maltaran]

There's also disagreement over the format of the debate - ITV's proposal is for a one on one debate with questions coming from whichever journalist they choose as host, whereas the BBC want it to be an audience panel asking the questions (allegedly, split 50-50 between those who support May's deal and those who oppose it - regardless of the reason for their opposition).

[A Horse Named Stranger]

I can see why Labour doesn't like that idea.

50% supporters of May.

The opposition crowd are then remainers, who hold Corbyn in equally high regards (and their questions can be really awkward for the dear Jeezer). The headbanger brigade, who don't trust Corbyn to really unleash the UK to take its natural place as supreme nation, well, then there's also the silly ones, who think JayCee can improve on May.

[Werthead]

Starmer and McDonnell have been laying groundwork for Labour to support a 2nd referendum if a GE is not possible, but the problem is the Corbyn is clearly hugely reluctant to support Remain, so this plan is really not working out well. As said above, the debate is going to be a very awkward event with both sides refusing to wholeheartedly endorse remaining in the EU, which is going to be deathly dull.

[Alarich II]

On 12/1/2018 at 6:57 AM, Which Tyler said:

Now we seem to be being told to hate the EU because the EU is actually quite good at protecting its members' interests; and they aren't being a push over for our negotiators. 

 

All EU member states - including the UK - have outsourced their trade negociations to the EU. And as a consequence, most member states don't have enough specialists for these trade negociations within their own civil service. Which means that even if the playing field in these negociations was level (and it isn't), the two teams are basically a professional team with players who train and play together on a daily basis for decades and an amateuer team that's just being put together for the occasion.

Maybe that's a bit harsh, but when I look at how these negotiations are handled from the UK-side, how they have spend months basically negotiating with themselves without producing anything of real substance, it seems to me that the administrative layer that should be carrying the political process is quite thin itself.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Meanwhile in other unsurprising news (or duhs if you will).

The backstop would make it difficult for the UK to strike new trade deals. No shit, Sherlock. Regulatory alignment with the EU, but the UK would be striking new deals left and right...

[mormont]

So first order of business tomorrow in Parliament is a debate on whether the government is in contempt of Parliament.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46435128

[Pebble thats Stubby]

what happens if the decide it is in contempt?

[mormont]

11 minutes ago, Pebble said:

what happens if the decide it is in contempt?

At worst, a suspension for a government minister, though it's not clear which one. Possibly just a slap on the wrist. But the opposition are pursuing this because a loss for the government would make the point that Parliament, not the Government, are sovereign, which obviously has enormous symbolic value in the Brexit discussion. 

[Which Tyler]

It would also set the precedent that legal advice on things ministers are supposed to vote for, really should be available to the ministers BEFORE they're expected to vote.

It probably wouldn't make any (certainly not enough) difference in voting on this particular issue; but would be a terrible precedent to set in our constitution governed entirely by precedent, rather than a written constitution.

[Maltaran]

5 hours ago, Pebble said:

what happens if the decide it is in contempt?

And now the vote has passed, the answer appears to be that the government now has to publish the advice in full.

Also Dominic Grieve’s amendment passed, meaning that if May’s deal is voted down, MPs will be able to amend the government’s proposals on what happens next.

[williamjm]

2 hours ago, Maltaran said:

And now the vote has passed, the answer appears to be that the government now has to publish the advice in full.

Also Dominic Grieve’s amendment passed, meaning that if May’s deal is voted down, MPs will be able to amend the government’s proposals on what happens next.

It was pointed out that Theresa May has lost more votes in one afternoon than some Prime Ministers do in an entire term.

Hopefully Grieve's amendment may reduce the changes of accidentally stumble into a no-deal Brexit, but whether Parliament will actually be able to come up with a coherent position of its own if May's deal fails is still uncertain.

In other news, Nigel Farage has quite UKIP, complaining that it is "turning a blind eye to extremist politics", he's not wrong about that but I think coming from Farage it is irony comparable to Donald Trump complaining about the lack of civility in politics.

[BigFatCoward]

Is it almost time to start feeling sorry for TM yet? Or Is it a case of 'the best time to kick a man is when he's down'?

[Werthead]

19 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said:

Is it almost time to start feeling sorry for TM yet? Or Is it a case of 'the best time to kick a man is when he's down'?

Not really. She'll be well enough off and I think history's final judgement will, "Absolutely any PM trying to get through this period would have been utterly fucked, so whatever" (her record as Home Secretary will be somewhat more damning, I suspect).

The main takeway from today's antics is that Parliament will feel much more in control and will feel much more confident of being able to shoot down May's bill next week and propose something else (Norway+ and, if that fails to get through, then Brexit Ref II).

[DaveSumm]

35 minutes ago, williamjm said:

In other news, Nigel Farage has quite UKIP, complaining that it is "turning a blind eye to extremist politics", he's not wrong about that but I think coming from Farage it is irony comparable to Donald Trump complaining about the lack of civility in politics.

Haven’t they hired Tommy Robinson? I’m no fan of Farage but he knew his business, he managed to give the anti-immigration crowd a party to vote for that didn’t have overtly racist overtones in the way that the BNP do. Hiring Robinson is a huge blunder, and if they weren’t already, they’re now fucked.