UK Politics: Austerity has ended - More cuts to come.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

7 hours ago, Rorshach said:

Iceland, methinks.

Yes, and no.

Yes, Iceland is the one I forgot, but at the same time I also (for some reason) slipped in Switzerland, who are a case of their own.

So the nations in question are Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein.

But as I said before. The Norwegians are not exactly stoked about the prospect of the UK joining their club, to basically piss all over it.

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

I take the view that Ever Closer Union means what it says on the tin, and that when prominent politicians in France and Germany call for such things as an EU army or EU foreign minister, they mean what they say.

That's a bit of leap from Closer Union to Superstate. There quite many leaps before that happens.

E.g. there won't be one unified criminal law in the foreseeable future. Nobody is suggesting to abolish national parliaments and transfer all legislative power to Brussels. In the same venue, there will no big EU goverment ruling over the different territories. And htere's also the issue of money. There's currently no majority transfer the power of taxation over to the EU (apart from the idea of a Tobin tax being used to fund the Eurozone safety nets, but income and corporate tax rates will still go into the member states coffers). What else is there? Ah right, police. As I said, stuff like criminal laws are still a thing for the member states, and so is law enforcement.

 

The EU army is overdue. Esp. when you look at NATO and the ever more unreliable US. And this European Army will in all likelihood be modeled after NATO in some shape or form. I am sure you also advocate leaving the NATO superstate.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

9 minutes ago, mormont said:

Now, would this be the Euro that we were all confidently told could not survive the Greek economic crisis? Just wondering.

I kind of think fixing the pound is going to be a bigger issue in the coming years. But not to worry, we can just tie its value to the dollar, its new parent currency. It'll make life easier for the US healthcare insurers and food manufacturers who'll be running the newly 'independent' Britain. 

In other news, apparently the Tory party don't appreciate that the optics of British people disrupting Irish food supplies are, to say the least, problematic.

https://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-threat-food-shortages-ireland-4381228-Dec2018/

Somehow this created a mental image of BoJo standing with some Huns and together they start singing "the famine is over". Or would it be a case of history repeating itself with the UK creating a food crisis in Ireland.

[Werthead]

10 hours ago, mormont said:

In other news, apparently the Tory party don't appreciate that the optics of British people disrupting Irish food supplies are, to say the least, problematic.

https://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-threat-food-shortages-ireland-4381228-Dec2018/

It's also a quite spectacularly thick thing to say. Ireland literally has the highest level of food security on the planet (no hyperbole). Irish farms are capable of feeding about 43-44 million people (and will reach 50 million by the end of 2020), on an island with a population of 4.5 million. To starve Ireland Britain would have to completely encircle it by air, land and sea and the country could still feed itself ten times over. Britain, on the other hand, can't even feed itself once over.

Even aside from the optics of the genocide we inflicted on Ireland, it's the basic ignorance of the facts that is shocking.

[Heartofice]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

It's also a quite spectacularly thick thing to say. Ireland literally has the highest level of food security on the planet (no hyperbole). Irish farms are capable of feeding about 43-44 million people (and will reach 50 million by the end of 2020), on an island with a population of 4.5 million. To starve Ireland Britain would have to completely encircle it by air, land and sea and the country could still feed itself ten times over. Britain, on the other hand, can't even feed itself once over.

Even aside from the optics of the genocide we inflicted on Ireland, it's the basic ignorance of the facts that is shocking.

“Scare tactics used in Brexit debate shocker”

[Heartofice]

Good to know the debate is just as civil as ever 

[Werthead]

Alastair Campbell needs to seriously shut up and stop trying to dominate conversations. I think a good point has been made that the Remain camp did not in 2016 and (mostly) hasn't since made a good case for staying in the European Union on a positive, forward-thinking message that relates to the average UK citizen. Although Leave has also singularly failed to make a good case for leaving the EU in a realistic manner either.

[Heartofice]

14 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Alastair Campbell needs to seriously shut up and stop trying to dominate conversations. I think a good point has been made that the Remain camp did not in 2016 and (mostly) hasn't since made a good case for staying in the European Union on a positive, forward-thinking message that relates to the average UK citizen. Although Leave has also singularly failed to make a good case for leaving the EU in a realistic manner either.

One on one he can be pretty articulate and I've appreciated what he has to say, its just that when challenged he becomes a complete ogre. Its almost as if the character from The Thick of It was based on him or something..

[A Horse Named Stranger]

I am curious on what's the plan for the UK going forward - assuming May's deal gets shot down.

I see that Rudd is pivoting towards Norway+ as plan B, which has been repeatedly rejected by Norway. Corbyn is in fantasy land, claiming that he will get the deal May didn't get.

But seriously, where's this thing going?

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

I am curious on what's the plan for the UK going forward - assuming May's deal gets shot down.

I see that Rudd is pivoting towards Norway+ as plan B, which has been repeatedly rejected by Norway. Corbyn is in fantasy land, claiming that he will get the deal May didn't get.

But seriously, where's this thing going?

There is no plan, only chaos.

I'm currently assuming that post-Brexit Britain will look a bit like a Fallout game and any improvement on that will be a bonus.

[Derfel Cadarn]

8 minutes ago, Werthead said:

There is no plan, only chaos.

I'm currently assuming that post-Brexit Britain will look a bit like a Fallout game and any improvement on that will be a bonus.

Complete with unpolished finish, game breaking bugs, and a creaking old engine unfit for purpose.

Let's hope there's a good modding community.

[Which Tyler]

Torches, pitchforks... Essentially, Paris, but throughout the country

[DraculaAD1972]

On 12/7/2018 at 11:32 AM, A Horse Named Stranger said:

The Eu army is overdue. Esp. when you look at NATO and the ever more unreliable US. And this European Army will in all likelihood be modeled after NATO in some shape or form. 

I think it was Merkel and Macron who proposed this EU army. Neither are credible politically speaking. Both have destroyed themselves politically through their distance and disconnection from the sheeple they rule over. As we see in France currently, the French sheeple have teeth and aren't afraid to use them. Perhaps this EU army could be used in future to pacify the sheeple of Europe?

[Altherion]

9 hours ago, Werthead said:

There is no plan, only chaos.

It's fascinating how close to the truth this statement comes. It will be interesting to see what historians make of this mess: maybe there are some patterns that become apparent when you're looking from half a century out, but in real time it looks as though the elites of the UK agreed to an ill-advised referendum that they fully expected to go their way and when it did not, they... basically spent a couple of years imitating a flock of decapitated chickens.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

8 hours ago, DraculaAD1972 said:

I think it was Merkel and Macron who proposed this EU army. Neither are credible politically speaking. Both have destroyed themselves politically through their distance and disconnection from the sheeple they rule over. As we see in France currently, the French sheeple have teeth and aren't afraid to use them. Perhaps this EU army could be used in future to pacify the sheeple of Europe?

So much to disect.

First. No, the idea precedes Macron and Merkel. The last time it was floating around was during the Iraq war (Dubya's). It did not get any traction because America's poodle would have vetoed it. As in, not in America's interest. So this thing got more traction after the Brexit vote (no poodle, no veto).

Second: They've destroyed themselves through their distance to the sheeple? I am somewhat amused and disgusted at the same time, that Nazi (or do you prefer alt right?) speak has made it to this forum. But I guess, one has to endure a member of the Breitbart/Infowars flock occasionally. As much as I'd enjoy to hear where you think that disconnect happened, but if I were interest in your opnion, I'd check Breitbart or Infowars. I am sure, they give proper insight into the minds of the French for a dude from St. Petersburg (or is it really Manchester?).

Third. No, the EU army is as the name suggest for defending European interests. So the EU doesn't need to let the US run the show, if anything happens in its backyard (likesay Yugoslavia) or to deter Russian aggression.

So let me close this quick response with a Dosvendanya to St. Petersburg.

6 hours ago, Altherion said:

It's fascinating how close to the truth this statement comes. It will be interesting to see what historians make of this mess: maybe there are some patterns that become apparent when you're looking from half a century out, but in real time it looks as though the elites of the UK agreed to an ill-advised referendum that they fully expected to go their way and when it did not, they... basically spent a couple of years imitating a flock of decapitated chickens.

That is... one way of looking at it. But the very idea that JRM or Rupert Murdoch are not elites is laughable. The British mainstream media has been campaigning against the EU for a good while (and laid the groundwork for this), and if they are not run by elites, then our very definition of elites differs. So that makes that blue collar revolt against the elites somewhat less convincing.

[mormont]

Yeah, Brexit as an idea got its start among press barons, bankers,  shady well-funded right-wing think-tanks like the Taxpayers' Alliance, Tory MPs and peers. Support for it cuts across class lines, as does opposition. The idea that it is a class issue is a grade one bit of bullish, underinformed ignorance and it was therefore entirely to be expected that this would be Altherion's take.

[polishgenius]

I'm getting really tired of people on every side running about saying 'May's deal is a bad deal! We have a better deal!'

You haven't negotiated with the EU. So it's not a deal. By pretending it's a viable option you are lying.

[mormont]

Well, we don't know if it's a viable option or not: but it's certainly not a deal, you're right. It's a proposal.

[polishgenius]

3 minutes ago, mormont said:

Well, we don't know if it's a viable option or not

Well, fair in general principle: but the EU have been pretty clear that at this point no re-negotiation is possible. It might have been a viable option if this whole process had been handled properly.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

Well, we don't know if it's a viable option or not: but it's certainly not a deal, you're right. It's a proposal. 

We may not know for sure whether Red Unicorns exist, but the odds are, they don't.

Labour's deal proposal fantasy involves pretty much all the benefits of membership, without well, membership. The pretense this would be acceptable is something I find to some degree outrageous. As that's just irresponsibly playing party politics with a quite serious issue for electoral gains.

[mormont]

Fair. I keep hearing from Corbyn supporters on Twitter and FB how Jeremy has 'played a blinder' on Brexit so far, but he's approaching the crunch point just as much as May is. He's been dangling the General Election carrot, exciting his own support about how they can use this to get into power, but if that doesn't work, and the May deal goes down in flames, there's no more wiggle room for Labour, either. Creative ambiguity won't be an option.