UK Politics: Austerity has ended - More cuts to come.

[Zorral]

The game of going going going going but never gone cannot go on forever.

[DMC]

This is, at least, the third straight post of Americans admonishing the UK - which is entirely ironic - but seriously WTF?  May is fucked no matter what, which means her party cynically put her in that position.  And then what?  Like, seriously, I don't get what's supposed to happen  in the next few months?  Nothing, probably.  Which will just entail more BS.  When you're making Trump's America look competent, that's when you know you're in trouble.

[ants]

3 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Strong part of the PM's speech today:

"Many of the most controversial aspects of this deal, including the backstop, are simply inescapable facts of having a negotiated Brexit. Those Members who continue to disagree need to shoulder the responsibility of advocating an alternative solution that can be delivered, and do so without ducking its implications. So if you want a second referendum to overturn the result of the first, be honest that this risks dividing the country again, when as a House we should be striving to bring it back together. If you want to remain part of the single market and the customs union, be open that this would require free movement, rule taking across the economy and ongoing financial contributions—none of which are in my view compatible with the result of the referendum. If you want to leave without a deal, be up front that in the short term, this would cause significant economic damage to parts of our country who can least afford to bear the burden. I do not believe that any of those courses of action command a majority in this House. But notwithstanding that fact, for as long as we fail to agree a deal, the risk of an accidental no deal increases. So the Government will step up their work in preparation for that potential outcome, and the Cabinet will hold further discussions on it this week."

 

Well, at least someone is actually telling the truth (finally).  These are the options, and it would be nice if the senior members on both sides had laid them out clearly a long time ago.  

[Altherion]

I guess one way this can all be part of a coherent plan is for there to be an agreement with the EU that the entire thing can be called off (i.e. return to pre-referendum status quo) and all of the maneuvering up to this point being to this end. Kind of a roundabout way of doing that though.

Incidentally, how big a deal is the ceremonial mace? Because this sounds pretty amusing:

Quote

Speaking to reporters afterwards, the MP said: “The symbolic gesture of lifting the mace and removing it is that the will of parliament to govern is no longer there has been removed. I felt parliament had effectively given up its sovereign right to govern properly.

“They stopped me before I got out of the chamber and I wasn’t going to struggle with someone wearing a huge sword on their hip.”

This was really an unfortunate turn of events as it deprived us of a chance to see how well a ceremonial mace would fare against a ceremonial sword in a fight (they don't use real swords, do they?).

[lokisnow]

4 hours ago, DMC said:

This is, at least, the third straight post of Americans admonishing the UK - which is entirely ironic - but seriously WTF?  May is fucked no matter what, which means her party cynically put her in that position.  And then what?  Like, seriously, I don't get what's supposed to happen  in the next few months?  Nothing, probably.  Which will just entail more BS.  When you're making Trump's America look competent, that's when you know you're in trouble.

Insert any number of  Lawrence of Arabia quotes here:

Colonel Brighton: Look, sir, we can't just do nothing. 
General Allenby: Why not? It's usually best.

they only cocked up the entire Middle East and thus the entire world for a century with that approach, so eh, I’m sure the same strategy as employed by May and that ninny Corbyn will work out equally well.

May has to do the hardest thing in 24/7 news cycle: do nothing and wait it out, the longer she waits the more leverage she gains, if she can endure a few pre holiday news cycles that is.

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

May has to do the hardest thing in 24/7 news cycle: do nothing and wait it out, the longer she waits the more leverage she gains, if she can endure a few pre holiday news cycles that is.

I'm not clear at all on how "waiting it out" will benefit May, but enjoyed the Lawrence of Arabia quotes.

[mormont]

7 hours ago, ants said:

"So if you want a second referendum to overturn the result of the first, be honest that this risks dividing the country again, when as a House we should be striving to bring it back together."

See, even this is dishonesty. May is well aware that her deal cannot bring the country back together. It divides the country just as much, if not more, than another referendum would. The same can be said of all the other options. If your argument against a second referendum is 'it will be divisive', you need to wake up and realise that there is simply no non-divisive way forward. None. 

[lokisnow]

There’s another quote (not from the movie but just in general), paraphrasing: the British aristocracy do nothing, but they do it well.

if May does nothing, no resignation, no new deal, no new referendum, but the clock continues to run out she will win because she will get enough votes at the eleventh hour to stop the crisis of a no deal.

at the end of this—in the last hour of the last day—voting for the deal will mean forestalling the no deal crisis and virtually all of the politicians howling today will eagerly vote  affirmatively for her deal in order to be part of the saviors league who gallantly set aside self interest en masse and put country before career to vote for mays deal and save the world .

*smirk* even I find that absurd, but that is the potential upside of stubbornly doing nothing: achieving a nick of time solution impossible to achieve today. It’s almost terry Pratchett esque 

 

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

*smirk* even I find that absurd, but that is the potential upside of stubbornly doing nothing: achieving a nick of time solution impossible to achieve today. It’s almost terry Pratchett esque 

 

Yeah man I wish that was a realistic scenario, but I would smirk as well.

[mormont]

9 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

There’s another quote (not from the movie but just in general), paraphrasing: the British aristocracy do nothing, but they do it well.

if May does nothing, no resignation, no new deal, no new referendum, but the clock continues to run out she will win because she will get enough votes at the eleventh hour to stop the crisis of a no deal.

at the end of this—in the last hour of the last day—voting for the deal will mean forestalling the no deal crisis and virtually all of the politicians howling today will eagerly vote  affirmatively for her deal in order to be part of the saviors league who gallantly set aside self interest en masse and put country before career to vote for mays deal and save the world .

*smirk* even I find that absurd, but that is the potential upside of stubbornly doing nothing: achieving a nick of time solution impossible to achieve today. It’s almost terry Pratchett esque 

 

This is accurate but only up to a point.

It's true that May's strategy to this point has been, as I noted, to give MPs a choice of 'this deal or no deal'. However, there's a significant number of Tory rebels who actually prefer no deal. So for this to work, May has to bounce the opposition into voting for her deal. That's a high-risk gamble. And in any case, it's becoming clear that either way, May's government is doomed whether it gets a deal or not. There will be sufficient anger either way within the Tory party that a vote of no-confidence is a real possibility, and a leadership challenge a near certainty. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Wait a minute, Parliament has a talking stick of sorts? That’s pretty funny.  

[Pebble thats Stubby]

most UK councils also have a ceremonial mace.  its tradition.

 

[The BlackBear]

Calling it a talking stick is a bit misleading, it's just there to represent royal authority.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

I think representing authority at Westminster these days is a contradiction in itself.

But I liked that MPs Lady Gaga choreography however. So this deal is sick, I want to ride with that talking stick.

Well, would somebody now please put May out of her misery.

[lokisnow]

7 hours ago, mormont said:

This is accurate but only up to a point.

It's true that May's strategy to this point has been, as I noted, to give MPs a choice of 'this deal or no deal'. However, there's a significant number of Tory rebels who actually prefer no deal. So for this to work, May has to bounce the opposition into voting for her deal. That's a high-risk gamble. And in any case, it's becoming clear that either way, May's government is doomed whether it gets a deal or not. There will be sufficient anger either way within the Tory party that a vote of no-confidence is a real possibility, and a leadership challenge a near certainty. 

See in America, the non Conservative party is so totally lacking in spine that if pushed to the last minute like about eighty percent of them  would abandon all principles or political calculation and capitulate to the demands of their opposition and vote with them.

So in America it wouldn’t even be a risk for republicans in a crisis management scenario, they’d know they’d get more than enough democrats to vote against their own interests that they wouldn’t even worry about a rebellion in the right flank. And the republicans would also know they wouldn’t even have to give the democrats anything to get the votes they need to forestall crisis, democrats would just give them the votes for free (maybe a little verbal bullying to motivate the democrats to hand over the votes , but not much).

 I mean even when democrats had their biggest majorities in sixty years (60%!), party leadership went hat in hand to conservatives and said “if we start with your position and negotiate to an even more conservative position is that okay with you that we do that, you still don’t have to vote for it but would you say nice things about us?”

are the non conservatives in England possessing of more spine and or political calculation?

[Zorral]

BREXIT and the orange nazi's election are two parts of a concerted campaign.  And alas, the two reinforce the full corruption and dysfuction of each other in both nations.  (The campaign is also in other European countries too.)  This has been discussed periodically in many a periodical / on media site.  So there are lots of 'em when one googles.

 

 

 

[Heartofice]

20 minutes ago, Zorral said:

BREXIT and the orange nazi's election are two parts of a concerted campaign.  And alas, the two reinforce the full corruption and dysfuction of each other in both nations.  (The campaign is also in other European countries too.)  This has been discussed periodically in many a periodical / on media site.  So there are lots of 'em when one googles.

?

What do you mean?

[Seli]

4 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Wait a minute, Parliament has a talking stick of sorts? That’s pretty funny.  

Even more funny, the US has one as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives

https://history.house.gov/Blog/Detail/15032450168

[Which Tyler]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

?

What do you mean?

Pretty obvious isn't it?

There is one country in particular, who benefits from a rise of nationalism in other countries. Who benefits from a divided, highly partisan atmosphere in the US, in the UK, in France, in Germany, is Austria, the break-up of the EU, the breakup of NATO.

That country is already known to have involved itself in both Brexit and the US election (and probably the UK, French and German elections).

 

Now, who could possibly benefit from that, at the same time as sabre-rattling against it own neighbours?

[Heartofice]

18 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Pretty obvious isn't it?

There is one country in particular, who benefits from a rise of nationalism in other countries. Who benefits from a divided, highly partisan atmosphere in the US, in the UK, in France, in Germany, is Austria, the break-up of the EU, the breakup of NATO.

That country is already known to have involved itself in both Brexit and the US election (and probably the UK, French and German elections).

 

Now, who could possibly benefit from that, at the same time as sabre-rattling against it own neighbours?

So Brexit and Trump are the result of the Russians.. that’s what you are suggesting?