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Starfall...or Starkfall? The fall from grace of House Stark


The Map Guy

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Starfall is the seat of House Dayne, the site of a fallen shooting star, whose stone forged the famous sword Dawn.

What if the name "Starfall" on the map was not originally meant for the shooting star?

What if GRRM's initial hidden intention was "Starkfall"? The location and story of how the honorable House Stark was not really that honorable.

And what if anything in regards to a falling stone from outer space and the legend of Dayne family was written as a secondary by GRRM?

 

Why "Starkfall"?

Well it would involve the two theories of R+L=J, and Brandon + Ashara = Stillborn. 

Though it has been discussed multiple times, here is the refresher:

R+L=J theory is essentially the story of Lyanna Stark abandoning her honor to Robert Baratheon's betrothal for Rhaegar Targaryen...for love.

B+A=stillborn is essentially the story of Brandon Stark dishonoring Catelyn Tully's betrothal for Ashara Dayne...either for love, or for a one night stand, or two.

 

At the Tower of Joy, Ned learns from Lyanna that she and Rhaegar were in love, and Rickard & Brandon Stark died over a lie.

After Lyanna dies, Ned needed a ship to travel back to Winterfell while hiding the existence of Jon Snow.

Ned goes to Starfall because coincidentally:

  • He needed to go to a seaport and find a ship
  • He returns Dawn to House Dayne
  • He hopes to see his crush from the Tourney at Harrenhal, Ashara Dayne

At Starkfall (where everything goes wrong):

  • Ashara learns from Ned, that he just killed Arthur Dayne, her brother.
  • Ned and Arthur didn't need to fight because their interest in protecting Jon and Lyanna were the same...but this was after the fact.
  • Ned also tells Ashara that Lyanna was never kidnapped by Rhaegar, and Brandon was executed over this lie.
  • Ashara then reveals that she and Brandon slept together while Brandon was in King's Landing after they met at the Tourney of Harrenhal a year earlier.
  • The stillborn daughter she recently had was also Brandon's bastard daughter.
  • With all this grief, Ashara kills herself over losing her brother and her lover to misunderstandings, and losing her daughter probably to natural causes.
  • Ned realized what a dick Brandon was, dishonoring Catelyn by sleeping with Ned's crush from the Tourney
  • Poor Ned leaves Starkfall with secrets and lies:
    • Lyanna's dishonor - baby Jon Snow's secret origins
    • Brandon's dishonor - the secret that Brandon dishonored Catelyn while they were betrothed

Ned disguised the combination of his sibling dishonors as his, to protect Lyanna's & Brandon's reputations, and House Stark's reputation

Any dishonor of House Stark perceived by the public and perceived by Catelyn Tully, Ned Stark sucked it up himself.

 

Personally, every time I reread a passage of Jon Snow's origin and Ashara Dayne in the same mention...I have treat it as two separate things, even though the GRRM cleverly wrote it make it seem like they were related. Once I was able to separate the tales in the same mention, everything just made the most sense and it addresses a lot of holes of R+L=J, by making it R+L=J AND B+A=stillborn

But B+A=stillborn has no future and irrelevant in current affairs, where as R+L=J, Jon is still kicking it...assuming he comes back.

So what you guys think of Starkfall? 

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I think you'd need to find some sort of connection between the Starks and stars in the text, otherwise, it's a bit out of nowhere. I can't think of anything offhand but that's not to say nothing's there. The wights' eyes are compared to stars, but the Stark connection to the Others and wights is just speculation and theory at this point.

It would help a lot to find some hints that the Starks had some connection to this area during that time.

12 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

What if GRRM initial intention was "Starkfall"? The location and story of how the honorable House Stark was not really that honorable?

Houses aren't honorable or dishonorable. People are. Ned personally was big on honor from his being raised by High as Honor Arryns. The Starks have had to be Kings of Winter, hard men for hard times. Honor falls to the wayside when you're just struggling to save your family and your people in the face of Winter.

ADWD Davos IV

"Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

 

Dany, Viserys, Aerys and Rhaegar were completely different. Are the Targs honorable or not? Hoster, the Blackfish, Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure are all Tullys. Was this house honorable or not? It's an individual thing.

These sorts of tribalistic generalizations don't make sense.

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37 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Starfall is the seat of House Dayne, the site of a fallen shooting star, whose stone forged the famous sword Dawn.

What if the name "Starfall" on the map was not initially meant for the shooting star?

What if GRRM initial intention was "Starkfall"? The location and story of how the honorable House Stark was not really that honorable?

And anything in regards to a falling stone from outer space and the legend of Dayne family was written as a secondary by GRRM?

 

Why "Starkfall"? Well it would involve the two theories of R+L=J, and Brandon + Ashara = Stillborn.

R+L=J theory is essentially the story of Lyanna Stark abandoning her honor to Robert Baratheon's betrothal for Rhaegar Targaryen...for love.

B+A=stillborn is essentially the story of Brandon Stark dishonoring Catelyn Tully's betrothal for Ashara Dayne...either for love, or for a one night stand, or two.

 

At the Tower of Joy, Ned learns from Lyanna that she and Rhaegar were in love, and Rickard & Brandon Stark died over a lie.

After Lyanna dies, Ned needed a ship to travel back to Winterfell while hiding the existence of Jon Snow.

Ned goes to Starfall because coincidentally:

  • He needs to go to a seaport and find a ship
  • He returns Dawn to House Dayne
  • He hopes to see his crush from the Tourney at Harrenhal, Ashara Dayne

At Starkfall:

  • Ashara learns from Ned, that he just killed Arthur Dayne, her brother.
  • Ned and Arthur didn't need to fight because their interest in protecting Jon and Lyanna were the same...but this was after the fact.
  • Ned also tells Ashara that Lyanna was never kidnapped by Rhaegar, and Brandon was executed over this lie.
  • Ashara then reveals that she and Brandon slept together while Brandon was in King's Landing after they met at the Tourney of Harrenhal a year earlier.
  • The stillborn daughter she recently had was also Brandon's bastard daughter.
  • With all this grief, Ashara kills herself over losing her brother and her lover to misunderstandings, and losing her daughter probably to natural causes.
  • Ned realized what a dick Brandon was, dishonoring Catelyn by sleeping with Ned's crush from the Tourney
  • Poor Ned leaves Starkfall with secrets and lies:
    • Lyanna's dishonor - baby Jon Snow's secret origins
    • Brandon's dishonor - the secret that Brandon dishonored Catelyn while they were betrothed

Ned disguised the combination of his sibling dishonors as his, to protect Lyanna's & Brandon's reputations, and House Stark's reputation

Any dishonor of House Stark perceived by the public and perceived by Catelyn Tully, Ned Stark sucked it up himself.

 

Personally, every time I reread a passage of Jon Snow's origin and Ashara Dayne in the same mention...I have treat it as two separate things, even though the GRRM cleverly wrote it make it seem like they were related. Once I was able to separate the tales in the same mention, everything just made the most sense and it addresses a lot of holes of R+L=J, by making it R+L=J AND B+A=stillborn

But B+A=stillborn has no future and irrelevant in current affairs, where as R+L=J, Jon is still kicking it...assuming he comes back.

So what you guys think of Starkfall? 

This has been discussed many times before. We need a new book 

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12 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

This has been discussed many times before. We need a new book 

I have google the word "Starkfall" and searched this forum for this term...it never came up.

I thought people probably failed to realized the word Starfall and Starkfall are eerily similar...with substance to work with.

If someone has mentioned "Starkfall" in the past...my bad. 

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24 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I think you'd need to find some sort of connection between the Starks and stars in the text, otherwise, it's a bit out of nowhere. I can't think of anything offhand but that's not to say nothing's there. The wights' eyes are compared to stars, but the Stark connection to the Others and wights is just speculation and theory at this point.

It would help a lot to find some hints that the Starks had some connection to this area during that time.

Houses aren't honorable or dishonorable. People are. Ned personally was big on honor from his being raised by High as Honor Arryns. The Starks have had to be Kings of Winter, hard men for hard times. Honor falls to the wayside when you're just struggling to save your family and your people in the face of Winter.

ADWD Davos IV

 

"Then a long cruel winter fell," said Ser Bartimus. "The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard's great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf's Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he'd found chained up in the dungeons. It's said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don't know winter, and winter don't know them."

 

 

 

Dany, Viserys, Aerys and Rhaegar were completely different. Are the Targs honorable or not? Hoster, the Blackfish, Catelyn, Lysa and Edmure are all Tullys. Was this house honorable or not? It's an individual thing.

These sorts of tribalistic generalizations don't make sense.

I'm just saying Starfall and Starkfall would be very similar in names. The events that happened in Starfall involving the Starks, would represent a dent in their names. I'm basically saying Brandon and Lyanna were revealed privately to do something dishonorable in the name of their family....but Ned was the one that took the blame publicly.

In regards to stars, I think GRRM created Starfall's history after he wrote the secret modern story of Starkfall. Nothing wrong with an author to work backwards, or write multiple meanings. It's not called Starlanding or Starhole or Starcrater...etc since Starklanding or Starkhole or Starkcrater...etc would not work with the back story of the Starks there.

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11 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I have google the word "Starkfall" and searched this forum for this term...it never came up.

I thought people probably failed to realized the word Starfall and Starkfall are eerily similar...with substance to work with.

If someone has mentioned "Starkfall" in the past...my bad. 

Look beyond one single word. Starfall and stark "dishonor" has been discussed for nearly two decades here  

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I think Starks have indeed fallen from grace but in the too distant past, before they were even named Stark. 

I also think that Daynes and Starks were closely related.

I believe Starks had another sigil and another name in the past but to cover their shame because of the actions of a brother, the Night King, they have(and Daynes as well) taken another name and another sigil. Their Grey wolf is oddly reminding of what one would expect Gaven Greywolf's siğil would be.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I'm just saying Starfall and Starkfall would be very similar in names. The events that happened in Starfall involving the Starks, would represent a dent in their names. I'm basically saying Brandon and Lyanna were revealed privately to do something dishonorable in the name of their family....but Ned was the one that took the blame publicly.

In regards to stars, I think GRRM created Starfall's history after he wrote the secret modern story of Starkfall. Nothing wrong with an author to work backwards, or write multiple meanings. It's not called Starlanding or Starhole or Starcrater...etc since Starklanding or Starkhole or Starkcrater...etc would not work with the back story of the Starks there.

I'm all for playing with names, but they're just a starting point and not sufficient in themselves. Things need to fall into place around that if you have any interest in actually substantiating your idea. And if it's really a thing, we know it's there to find because that's how GRRM rolls.

Starkhole? :huh: I think those names weren't used because they sound horrible compared to Starfall which sounds pretty cool. Another reason why you would need to back this up is that there's another interpretation of "fall".

I see that Winterfell is generally interpreted on the forum as Winter falling like in a battle which is possible. But I think another interpretation is stronger. Snowfall means snow is arriving or present. Nightfall means night has arrived. Evenfall means evening has arrived. Rainfall means the arrival or presence of rain. Starfall would mean a star has arrived or is present. None of these mean that anything was eliminated but the presence or arrival of something with a bit of a negative connotation included. So might Winterfell mean the arrival of Winter in the past? The first long night? And there's a commonality in all of these words: snowfall, nightfall, even(ing)fall, rainfall, winterfell, and yes, maybe starfall....

This is why I think you need to find where this is backed up if it's true. And you've got a little assuming your own conclusion going on here which isn't very convincing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question If you don't want to do the work to back this up or just don't have the time, ok, but don't be surprised if the only people you convince are those who just like the idea and want it to be true.

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31 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Look beyond one single word. Starfall and stark "dishonor" has been discussed for nearly two decades here  

I know Starfall and Stark dishonor as a topic has been discussed a million times.

But I am looking at THE word. If someone have coined it, good for them. But I haven't seen this word in my searches.

Its just an Easter Egg if the popular R+L=J and B+A=stillborn theories are true.

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5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'm all for playing with names, but they're just a starting point and not sufficient in themselves. Things need to fall into place around that if you have any interest in actually substantiating your idea. And if it's really a thing, we know it's there to find because that's how GRRM rolls.

Starkhole? :huh: I think those names weren't used because they sound horrible compared to Starfall which sounds pretty cool. Another reason why you would need to back this up is that there's another interpretation of "fall".

I see that Winterfell is generally interpreted on the forum as Winter falling like in a battle which is possible. But I think another interpretation is stronger. Snowfall means snow is arriving or present. Nightfall means night has arrived. Evenfall means evening has arrived. Rainfall means the arrival or presence of rain. Starfall would mean a star has arrived or is present. None of these mean that anything fell or was eliminated but the presence of arrival of something with a bit of a negative connotation included. So might Winterfell mean the arrival of Winter in the past? The first long night? And there's a commonality in all of these words: snowfall, nightfall, evenfall, rainfall, winterfell, and yes, maybe starfall....

This is why I think you need to find where this is backed up if it's true. And you've got a little assuming your own conclusion going on here which isn't very convincing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question If you don't want to do the work to back this up or just don't have the time, ok, but don't be surprised if the only people you convince are those who just like the idea and want it to be true.

Just to be sure, you are looking for the historical context relating to Starfall and the Starks when Starfall was founded right?

For that, I have none.

But ASOIAF is a work of fiction....i think GRRM is exercising his creatively with wordplay on Starfall's history and the modern Brandon/Lyanna/Ned Stark story.

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8 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I know Starfall and Stark dishonor as a topic has been discussed a million times.

But I am looking at THE word. If someone have coined it, good for them. But I haven't seen this word in my searches.

Its just an Easter Egg if the popular R+L=J and B+A=stillborn theories are true.

R+L=J is true, and effectively confirmed by multiple sources 

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Just now, The Map Guy said:

Just to be sure, you are looking for the historical context relating to Starfall and the Starks when Starfall was founded right?

For that, I have none.

But ASOIAF is a work of fiction....i think GRRM is exercising his creatively with wordplay on Starfall's history and the modern Brandon/Lyanna/Ned Stark story.

Historical context, hints, whatever. Also a connection between Starks and stars in the text. Anything else of that nature.

Just saying, but the bolded is a black hole and could be anything. I could think Starfall means the arrival of aliens from outer space or arrival of dead Dothraki as they see stars as dead ancestors, or that it's wordplay on the Others/wights being from outer space and I could slap that onto anything in turn.

I like playing with ideas, but it's a good thing to test those ideas to see if they actually hold up, especially since this is how the author writes even if it's a new idea. You're in wish fulfillment territory until you find that backup.

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I've no doubt that the Starks are no more honorable than your typical family.  There are honorable people in every house just as every house has dishonorable people.  Among the Starks, the dishonorable people are Jon Snow, Lyanna Stark, and Robb Stark.  The jury is out on Rickard Stark and Brandon Stark.  They are dishonorable men if they were plotting to depose their King Aerys.  

Starfall is not the place where these Starks committed their dishonorable actions.  Lyanna did hers when she made up her mind to run away from a marriage to Robert.  That will be in Winterfell.  Jon Snow committed his mischief at the wall.  Nowhere near Starfall.  Robb Stark broke his sworn oath at the Riverlands.  

The significance of Starfall in our story is the sword and the one who will use that sword.  Many believe Jon Snow is half Dayne and he might earn the sword one day.  Ned took the time to personally return the sword because he was in love with Ashara Dayne.  That is what a man who was in love will do.  Something that doesn't usually jive with common sense.

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13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

hmm Starfall Starkfall...Darkstar Darkstark! Gerold Dayne is the bastard son of Rickard Stark and a Lady Dayne of either Starfall or High Hermitage, That's why Rhaegar chose the Tower of Joy, because Lyanna wanted to be close to her younger half brother! She trusted his family to hide her!

What about Starpike, the seat of House Peake?  Starpike = Starkpike. Could it be where some legendary Stark caught some legendary fish? Or just where they get their favourites from. Always thought it was just a Mervyn Peake reference, but now I see there's more to it. 

Similarly, Starfish Harbour = Starkfish Harbour. This must be where the Starks favourite, non-Pike fish could be found. The Pike was obviously special to them though, if it was separated from other fish in this manner. 

The Qartheen trading vessel the Indigo Star must also be the Indigo Stark... So we must have an offshoot Stark branch in the east somewhere, if it was named after them. 

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9 minutes ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

What about Starpike, the seat of House Peake?  Starpike = Starkpike. Could it be where some legendary Stark caught some legendary fish? Or just where they get their favourites from. Always thought it was just a Mervyn Peake reference, but now I see there's more to it. 

Similarly, Starfish Harbour = Starkfish Harbour. This must be where the Starks favourite, non-Pike fish could be found. The Pike was obviously special to them though, if it was separated from other fish in this manner. 

The Qartheen trading vessel the Indigo Star must also be the Indigo Stark... So we must have an offshoot Stark branch in the east somewhere, if it was named after them. 

How could we have been so blind when the truth was right before our eyes...

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