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Starfall...or Starkfall? The fall from grace of House Stark


The Map Guy

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I wouldn't rush to judgement on this one. It's got to be at least possible that each name in this vast array was not a unique inspiration, but generated by some kind of rule. I mean, patterns have been noticed and discussed: the 'Ty', the 'ae' e.t.c.

If names are constructed like this, out of parts, maybe a Stark is just a star with a bit of extra 'k'. And what is a star anyway? Dany says Drogo is her 'sun and stars', Her husband and family, maybe?

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Starfall is not an afterthought plot line. It's one of the most important places on Planetos' atlas.

Ancestral sword of Daynes is called Dawn, and the wielder of that sword is the Sword of the Morning. Azor Ahai's sword is called Lightbringer. Dawn of Daynes is the Lightbringer. Starfall, Dawn, Lightbringer, the Sword of the Morning - all of it is references to Lucifer/fallen angel or to Jesus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Quote

"Latin word lucifer (uncapitalized),[5][6] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing". "

"The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל in Greek as Ἑωσφόρος [11][12][13][14][15] (heōsphoros),[16][17][18] a name, literally "bringer of dawn", for the morning star.[19] "

"the Latin word was not used exclusively in this way and was applied to others also, including Jesus.[27] The image of a morning star fallen from the sky is generally believed among scholars to have a parallel in Canaanite mythology.[28] "

"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! "

"In Latin, the word is applied to John the Baptist and is used as a title of Jesus himself in several early Christian hymns. The morning hymn Lucis largitor splendide of Hilary contains the line: "Tu verus mundi lucifer" (you are the true light bringer of the world)."

"The Latin word lucifer is also used of Jesus in the Easter Proclamation prayer to God regarding the paschal candle: Flammas eius lucifer matutinus inveniat: ille, inquam, lucifer, qui nescit occasum. Christus Filius tuus, qui, regressus ab inferis, humano generi serenus illuxit, et vivit et regnat in saecula saeculorum ("May this flame be found still burning by the Morning Star: the one Morning Star who never sets, Christ your Son, who, coming back from death's domain, has shed his peaceful light on humanity, and lives and reigns for ever and ever"). "

Jon Snow is GRRM's parallel to Jesus, he is going to resurect, and will become a lightbringer, in that sense, that he will save people from Apocalypse. Or rather GRRM is using three saviours - Dany, Rhaego, and Jon - the Mother, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, GRRM's parallel to the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jon is going to become the Sword of the Morning, and bring "light"/salvation to people.

When Jesus was born, in the sky has appeared Star of Bethlehem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem

Quote

The Star of Bethlehem, or Christmas Star,[1] appears only in the nativity story of the Gospel of Matthew, where "wise men from the East" (Magi) are inspired by the star to travel to Jerusalem.[2] There they meet King Herod of Judea, and tell him they are heading to Bethlehem to pay homage to the newborn king of the Jews. Herod calls his scribes and priests who confirm to him that a verse from the Book of Micah interpreted as a prophecy, states that the Jewish Messiah would be born in Bethlehem to the south of Jerusalem. Secretly intending to find and kill the Messiah in order to preserve his own kingship, Herod invites the wise men to return to him on their way home.

The star leads them to Jesus' home in the town, where they worship him and give him gifts. The wise men are then given a divine warning not to return to Herod, so they return home by a different route.[3]

Many Christians believe the star was a miraculous sign. Some theologians claimed that the star fulfilled a prophecy, known as the Star Prophecy.[4]Astronomers have made several attempts to link the star to unusual celestial events, such as a conjunction of Jupiter and Venus,[5] a comet, or a supernova.[6]

In ASOIAF, instead of three wisemen/magi, that came to Jesus, GRRM wrote about three wisemen, that came to Dany, following the Bleeding Star comet - Quaithe, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, and Pyat Pree. By this three people, and them following falling star, that brought them to Dany, GRRM gave a clue, that Dany is a parallel to Jesus.

Also he gave a clue, that "the dragon has three heads", so there are three Messiahs in ASOIAF. Dany is one of them, beause of that episode from above. The second one is Rhaego, because he is also a parallel to Jesus. This is what Jorah said about the Stallion: AGOT, Chapter 46:

Quote

The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child. He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd.

And this is what was written in the Bible about Jesus:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+19&version=NIV

Quote

The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Rhaego is Khal of Khals, and Khal means King, so he is King of kings, like Jesus. Also in the Bible Jesus was referred to as the great Shepherd, that will bring together all people, and will rule over them (https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/Hebrews/13/20). GRRM has wrote parallel to this, by creating story about Vaes Dothrak - it's a city, that was build for the Stallion, and, according to the legend, he will unite all Dothraki, and will bring them to this city. The legend said - "All the people of the world will be his herd.", so Rhaego is the great shepherd like Jesus.

In one of Dany's visions, she saw fire coming out of Rhaego's mouth. Rhaego is the champion of R'hllor, and thus fire is his weapon, his metaphorical sword. In the quote from above, the sword was coming out of Jesus' mouth.

Probably in ASOIAF GRRM is planning to use fake prophets and the beast, that they made people to worship - Varys and Illyrio are fake prophets, and fAegon, the mummers dragon fom Dany's vision, is the beast, or Antichrist.

So Rhaego is the second head of the dragon, one of GRRM's Holy Trinity.

The first two (Dany and Rhaego) were written with usage of clues, that connect them to Jesus (three wisemen came to Dany, following falling star; Rhaego is Khal of Khals, and ruler for whom all people of the world will be his herd), so the third Messiah, third head of the dragon, is also someone, who is written as parallel to Jesus.

That star is a symbol of Jesus, so Starfall is actually a clue about third head of the dragon. Jon was born at The Tower of Joy, but it's obvious, that Lyanna didn't spent 9 months of her pregnancy at that tower, so the baby was conceived elsewhere. It is known, that when Rhaegar was kidnapping Lyanna, his best friend, Arthur Dayne, was also there. After the kidnapping they needed to hide in some safe place, so they went to hide Lyanna in Arthur's ancestrall castle, Starfall. That's where Jon was conceived. Based on timeframe of known events, during Robert's Rebellion, and after it, it seems, that Jon was conceived in December of 282, on Christmas Eve, and thus was born during autumnal equinox, on September 23. Autumnal equinox is the day of the year, after which days become shorter and nights become longer. Long Night - get it? ;) According to prophecy about Azor Ahai, after his birth/appearance under bleeding stars, will come a Long Night.

If my theory about time and place of Jon's conceivement is correct, then I'm also correct about day of his birth. If my theory is correct, then Jon's sign of Zodiac is Libra.

Libra is one of the three zodiac air signs, the others being Gemini and Aquarius. It is known, that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany.

http://www.westeros.org/citadel/ssm/entry/1040

Quote

Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

So if Jon is Libra, and he was born in September of 283 (40 weeks after Christmas Eve of 282 (pregnancy lasts 40 weeks)), then Dany was born 8-9 months after 23rd September of 283, and that's between May and June of 284, and that is the time of Gemini sign (between May 21 and June 21). Jon is Libra, Dany is Gemini, thus Rhaego is Aquarius. All three are air signs, because all three are going to be dragonriders.

One of clues, that Rhaego could be an Aquarius - Aquariuses are born between January 21 and February 18, Dany has found out about her pregnancy on the day of her 14th birthday, and she gave birth to Rhaego several months prior her 15th birthday (when she and her people has arrived to Qarth, Dany is already 15 years old, and it happened several months after Rhaego's birth, but not later than 6 months after his birth <- that's because of what Quaithe said to Dany, when they were watching fire-show. Dany's dragons has hatched less than six months prior that conversation. It is known, that the Bleeding Star appeared in early 299). So Rhaego was born between January 21 and February 18, Dany has turned 15 years old between May 21 and June 21, and Dany has met Quaithe in Qarth after Dany's birthday, but less than 6 months after Rhaego's birth - thus that meeting happened in July of 299.

Guardian planet of Gemini is Mercury (messenger of Gods in Greek mythology), Aquarius' is Saturn (planet of destruction. Symbol of God Saturn is scythe, which looks similar to Dothraki arakhs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology) ), and Libra's is Venus.

Venus is the Morning star, or lucifer. So here's another connection between GRRM's Holy Trinity/three heads of the dragon and Starfall - it's likely, that Jon was conceived at Starfall, on our world's Christmas Eve.  When Jesus was born, above place of his birth has appeared Star of Bethlehem. His birth and appearance of this star were predicted in the prophecy. In ASOIAF, according to the prophecy about Azor Ahai, he will appear under the bleeding stars. Maybe the meaning of the prophecy, is not that he will be born under passing comet, but rather that he will be conceived in the place, where has fallen piece of star - at Starfall (Rhaegar thought, that Aegon was the Prince that was promised, because on the night of Aegon's conceivement, when Rhaegar and Elia were at King's Landing, there was seen a comet, passing above KL). And that piece of star was used to forge Dawn, so this sword is spiritually connected to future Azor Ahai (when the baby was conceived, his soul has absorbed energy of the star, that has fallen at that place thousands years ago. The sword was forged from that star, so the baby, whose soul is a carrier of that star's energy, will be a perfect wielder for Dawn). The comet has fallen at the site, where later was build Starfall, and Jon was conceived at Starfall.

So Starfall is a centrepiece of GRRM writing, not an afterthought. And there's multiple clues in the books, that support this theory.

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On 10/12/2018 at 2:38 PM, Lollygag said:

Just saying, but the bolded is a black hole and could be anything. I could think Starfall means the arrival of aliens from outer space or arrival of dead Dothraki as they see stars as dead ancestors, or that it's wordplay on the Others/wights being from outer space and I could slap that onto anything in turn.

Yes it could be anything......but we already have a story/theory about what happened to Ned Stark at Starfall. The word-play could be related to Ned Stark from an fictional author's POV, even though it would be impossible from a historian POV.

 

On 10/12/2018 at 5:32 PM, The Pink Letter said:

The significance of Starfall in our story is the sword and the one who will use that sword.

I agree, and that is one of the few things that would drive the series forward in the future. But what if Starfall had an older original obsolete meaning in GRRM's mind?

With the name, historical events, and modern events, Starfall aka Starkfall is has a creative double meaning:

  • A star falling there (historical)
  • Ned Stark fell and hit rock bottom, House Stark fell and hit rock bottom (metaphorical)

 

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

So Starfall is a centrepiece of GRRM writing, not an afterthought. And there's multiple clues in the books, that support this theory.

Agreed, but what if GRRM wrote that second?

What if, with a blank piece of paper, author GRRM writes a story about Brandon, Lyanna and Ned...and how as a family, everything went wrong from there. GRRM wanted to name this place Starkfall, a place so far far far from home at Winterfell.

Then GRRM creatively removed the 'k' from Starkfall and named it Starfall....THEN he writes about the shooting star, Dawn and Arthur Dayne...and it actually turns into something important to our ASOIAF story.

 

I dunno, that is just me though. A lot of people here on this forum just focus on the text between the covers of the book.

I'm interested in everything between the covers, outside the covers, literally on the covers lol, and the thought process of an author when he creatively writes a story. 

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On 10/12/2018 at 2:38 PM, Lollygag said:

You're in wish fulfillment territory until you find that backup.

Okay, let me try a different approach in backing this up. For nerdy purposes, lets convert House Stark into a stock, like a stock market stock.

I can't post a graph here, so visualize with me. House Stark Stock = HSS

  1. HSS is consistently at a all time high with Lord Rickard, Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna and Benjen alive before the Tourney at Harrenhal.
  2. Brandon gets betrothed to Catelyn, Lyanna gets betrothed to Robert = HSS rises a little
  3. At the Tourney of Harrenhal, Rhaegar crowns Lyanna the Queen of Love & Beauty = HSS drops a little
  4. Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna = HSS drops
  5. Rickard & Brandon are executed = HSS drops A LOT
  6. Lyanna dies at TOJ, reveals to Ned that she and Rhaegar were in love, gave birth to Jon Snow = HSS drops A LOT again
  7. At Starfall, Ashara (after having a Stark stillborn) reveals to Ned that she and Brandon had an affair, dishonoring Catelyn while they were betrothed, Ashara also commits suicides....House Stark Stock drops to the lowest point of the graph, now dubbed Starkfall at Starfall
  8. Ned returns to Winterfell and lived almost happily ever after, for only 14 years = HSS slowly rises over a 14 year span

Does this make any sense?

Anyways for fun:

  1. Ned becomes Hand of the King at King's Landing = HSS rises a little
  2. Ned is executed, Sansa is a hostage, Arya is hiding = HSS drops A LOT
  3. Robb becomes King in the North = HSS rises
  4. Winterfell is sacked, Brandon and Rickard are separated = HSS drops A LOT
  5. Red Wedding = HSS drops off the chart
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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Starfall is not an afterthought plot line. It's one of the most important places on Planetos' atlas.

Ancestral sword of Daynes is called Dawn, and the wielder of that sword is the Sword of the Morning. Azor Ahai's sword is called Lightbringer. Dawn of Daynes is the Lightbringer. Starfall, Dawn, Lightbringer, the Sword of the Morning - all of it is references to Lucifer/fallen angel or to Jesus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Jon Snow is GRRM's parallel to Jesus, he is going to resurect, and will become a lightbringer, in that sense, that he will save people from Apocalypse. Or rather GRRM is using three saviours - Dany, Rhaego, and Jon - the Mother, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, GRRM's parallel to the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jon is going to become the Sword of the Morning, and bring "light"/salvation to people.

When Jesus was born, in the sky has appeared Star of Bethlehem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem

In ASOIAF, instead of three wisemen/magi, that came to Jesus, GRRM wrote about three wisemen, that came to Dany, following the Bleeding Star comet - Quaithe, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, and Pyat Pree. By this three people, and them following falling star, that brought them to Dany, GRRM gave a clue, that Dany is a parallel to Jesus.

Also he gave a clue, that "the dragon has three heads", so there are three Messiahs in ASOIAF. Dany is one of them, beause of that episode from above. The second one is Rhaego, because he is also a parallel to Jesus. This is what Jorah said about the Stallion: AGOT, Chapter 46:

And this is what was written in the Bible about Jesus:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+19&amp;version=NIV

Rhaego is Khal of Khals, and Khal means King, so he is King of kings, like Jesus. Also in the Bible Jesus was referred to as the great Shepherd, that will bring together all people, and will rule over them (https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/Hebrews/13/20). GRRM has wrote parallel to this, by creating story about Vaes Dothrak - it's a city, that was build for the Stallion, and, according to the legend, he will unite all Dothraki, and will bring them to this city. The legend said - "All the people of the world will be his herd.", so Rhaego is the great shepherd like Jesus.

In one of Dany's visions, she saw fire coming out of Rhaego's mouth. Rhaego is the champion of R'hllor, and thus fire is his weapon, his metaphorical sword. In the quote from above, the sword was coming out of Jesus' mouth.

Probably in ASOIAF GRRM is planning to use fake prophets and the beast, that they made people to worship - Varys and Illyrio are fake prophets, and fAegon, the mummers dragon fom Dany's vision, is the beast, or Antichrist.

So Rhaego is the second head of the dragon, one of GRRM's Holy Trinity.

The first two (Dany and Rhaego) were written with usage of clues, that connect them to Jesus (three wisemen came to Dany, following falling star; Rhaego is Khal of Khals, and ruler for whom all people of the world will be his herd), so the third Messiah, third head of the dragon, is also someone, who is written as parallel to Jesus.

That star is a symbol of Jesus, so Starfall is actually a clue about third head of the dragon. Jon was born at The Tower of Joy, but it's obvious, that Lyanna didn't spent 9 months of her pregnancy at that tower, so the baby was conceived elsewhere. It is known, that when Rhaegar was kidnapping Lyanna, his best friend, Arthur Dayne, was also there. After the kidnapping they needed to hide in some safe place, so they went to hide Lyanna in Arthur's ancestrall castle, Starfall. That's where Jon was conceived. Based on timeframe of known events, during Robert's Rebellion, and after it, it seems, that Jon was conceived in December of 282, on Christmas Eve, and thus was born during autumnal equinox, on September 23. Autumnal equinox is the day of the year, after which days become shorter and nights become longer. Long Night - get it? ;) According to prophecy about Azor Ahai, after his birth/appearance under bleeding stars, will come a Long Night.

If my theory about time and place of Jon's conceivement is correct, then I'm also correct about day of his birth. If my theory is correct, then Jon's sign of Zodiac is Libra.

Libra is one of the three zodiac air signs, the others being Gemini and Aquarius. It is known, that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany.

http://www.westeros.org/citadel/ssm/entry/1040

So if Jon is Libra, and he was born in September of 283 (40 weeks after Christmas Eve of 282 (pregnancy lasts 40 weeks)), then Dany was born 8-9 months after 23rd September of 283, and that's between May and June of 284, and that is the time of Gemini sign (between May 21 and June 21). Jon is Libra, Dany is Gemini, thus Rhaego is Aquarius. All three are air signs, because all three are going to be dragonriders.

One of clues, that Rhaego could be an Aquarius - Aquariuses are born between January 21 and February 18, Dany has found out about her pregnancy on the day of her 14th birthday, and she gave birth to Rhaego several months prior her 15th birthday (when she and her people has arrived to Qarth, Dany is already 15 years old, and it happened several months after Rhaego's birth, but not later than 6 months after his birth <- that's because of what Quaithe said to Dany, when they were watching fire-show. Dany's dragons has hatched less than six months prior that conversation. It is known, that the Bleeding Star appeared in early 299). So Rhaego was born between January 21 and February 18, Dany has turned 15 years old between May 21 and June 21, and Dany has met Quaithe in Qarth after Dany's birthday, but less than 6 months after Rhaego's birth - thus that meeting happened in July of 299.

Guardian planet of Gemini is Mercury (messenger of Gods in Greek mythology), Aquarius' is Saturn (planet of destruction. Symbol of God Saturn is scythe, which looks similar to Dothraki arakhs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_(mythology) ), and Libra's is Venus.

Venus is the Morning star, or lucifer. So here's another connection between GRRM's Holy Trinity/three heads of the dragon and Starfall - it's likely, that Jon was conceived at Starfall, on our world's Christmas Eve.  When Jesus was born, above place of his birth has appeared Star of Bethlehem. His birth and appearance of this star were predicted in the prophecy. In ASOIAF, according to the prophecy about Azor Ahai, he will appear under the bleeding stars. Maybe the meaning of the prophecy, is not that he will be born under passing comet, but rather that he will be conceived in the place, where has fallen piece of star - at Starfall (Rhaegar thought, that Aegon was the Prince that was promised, because on the night of Aegon's conceivement, when Rhaegar and Elia were at King's Landing, there was seen a comet, passing above KL). And that piece of star was used to forge Dawn, so this sword is spiritually connected to future Azor Ahai (when the baby was conceived, his soul has absorbed energy of the star, that has fallen at that place thousands years ago. The sword was forged from that star, so the baby, whose soul is a carrier of that star's energy, will be a perfect wielder for Dawn). The comet has fallen at the site, where later was build Starfall, and Jon was conceived at Starfall.

So Starfall is a centrepiece of GRRM writing, not an afterthought. And there's multiple clues in the books, that support this theory.

Rhaego was stillborn.  He is dead and was born that way.  He will not play a role in the upcoming chapters as a living breathing character. 

Starfall is where a meteor struck GRRth.  Meteors are typically rocky or metallic in composition and in our own human history the metallic ones have even been forged into knives and swords.  Comets are made of ice and frozen super-cooled gases which vaporize when they enter the earths atmosphere.  The sword named Dawn was not forged from the core of a comet (which are made of ice and frozen gasses), it was forged from the core of a meteorite (which are rocky and sometimes metallic). 

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On 10/12/2018 at 12:40 PM, The Map Guy said:

So what you guys think of Starkfall? 

The Starks never had grace.  What Lyanna, Brandon, Robb, Sansa, Catelyn, Jon, and Arya have done and continue to do prove they do not have the moral upper hand.  Some of the book fans have this misconception that they are morally superior to the other houses.  That's not true.  The series started with a lot of Stark povs and so the reader could erroneously come to the conclusion that this family is somehow above the rest in terms of honor and morals.  Not so.  Their war to conquer the north was very bloody and vicious.  For the Starks to judge Tywin Lannister and Aerys Targaryen is like the pot calling the kettle black.  The hungry wolf was so brutal that he makes Tywin and Aerys look reasonable in their handling of the Tarbecks and the Darklins.  The Starks could not fall from grace because they had none.  The Andals are a better people than the First Men.  At least in my opinion.  No, Starfall is not Starkfall.  Winterfell is.  

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1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

The Starks never had grace.  What Lyanna, Brandon, Robb, Sansa, Catelyn, Jon, and Arya have done and continue to do prove they do not have the moral upper hand.  Some of the book fans have this misconception that they are morally superior to the other houses.  That's not true.  The series started with a lot of Stark povs and so the reader could erroneously come to the conclusion that this family is somehow above the rest in terms of honor and morals.  Not so.  Their war to conquer the north was very bloody and vicious.  For the Starks to judge Tywin Lannister and Aerys Targaryen is like the pot calling the kettle black.  The hungry wolf was so brutal that he makes Tywin and Aerys look reasonable in their handling of the Tarbecks and the Darklins.  The Starks could not fall from grace because they had none.  The Andals are a better people than the First Men.  At least in my opinion.  No, Starfall is not Starkfall.  Winterfell is.  

I mean, GRRM, the author, refers to the Starks as the good guys.

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11 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Rhaego was stillborn.  He is dead and was born that way.  He will not play a role in the upcoming chapters as a living breathing character. 

I'll agree with you, if he won't return in next book with Dany's POV, if he is not in Vaes Dothrak, and if he is not with Quaithe at Asshai.

Someone needs to be the third head of the dragon, and it's obviously not fAegon, who is mummers dragon, and not Tyrion, who is a Lannister, and has zero of dragonseed blood. The colors of Dany's three dragons, and even their names are sufficient clues about identity of future riders of those dragons.

11 hours ago, White Ravens said:

Starfall is where a meteor struck GRRth.  Meteors are typically rocky or metallic in composition and in our own human history the metallic ones have even been forged into knives and swords.  Comets are made of ice and frozen super-cooled gases which vaporize when they enter the earths atmosphere.  The sword named Dawn was not forged from the core of a comet (which are made of ice and frozen gasses), it was forged from the core of a meteorite (which are rocky and sometimes metallic). 

But this is fiction, not real world, so GRRM doesn't need to follow laws of physics in his books (dead people walking, summers that last 10 years, winters that last a lifetime, dragons, shadowbinders, blood magic, etc.).

I think, that the Bleeding Star is the same comet/asteroid/whatever, piece of which has fallen on Planetos during Empire of Dawn, same material as this - https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Black_stone

Another piece of it has fallen on the site of future Starfall castle.

Or maybe that black stone of Bloodstone Emperor, fallen star from which Daynes has forged Dawn, and material from which first Azor Ahai has forged Lightbringer, is the same thing. Maybe first Azor Ahai was that Dayne, that has forged Dawn, and for this he has used Yi Ti's black stone, that was worshiped by Bloodstone Emperor. Maybe the principle is the same as Superman's cryptonite - the power of that black stone during first Long Night has created zombies, so Azor Ahai stole piece of that stone, applied to it R'hllor's magic and blood sacrifice of Nissa Nissa, and turned it into a weapon against those zombies, and the Others, that were also creations of that black stone. The original material has gained different properties after first Azor Ahai forged it thru R'hllor's sacred flames, and Nissa Nissa's heart, so it became milky-white/purified.

Piece of that "star"/comet/meteorite/whatever that is, has fallen on Planetos thousands years ago, but the rest of it continued its journey thru space, and returned to Planetos in early 299, when it was named by Dothraki the Bleeding Star. So maybe Dawn was forged from meteorite, and what people thought to be a comet, was actually an asteroid, from which Starfall's "meteorite" separated and fell on Planetos' surface. Or something like that. 

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8 hours ago, Megorova said:

I'll agree with you, if he won't return in next book with Dany's POV, if he is not in Vaes Dothrak, and if he is not with Quaithe at Asshai.

Someone needs to be the third head of the dragon, and it's obviously not fAegon, who is mummers dragon, and not Tyrion, who is a Lannister, and has zero of dragonseed blood. The colors of Dany's three dragons, and even their names are sufficient clues about identity of future riders of those dragons.

But this is fiction, not real world, so GRRM doesn't need to follow laws of physics in his books (dead people walking, summers that last 10 years, winters that last a lifetime, dragons, shadowbinders, blood magic, etc.).

I think, that the Bleeding Star is the same comet/asteroid/whatever, piece of which has fallen on Planetos during Empire of Dawn, same material as this - https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Black_stone

Another piece of it has fallen on the site of future Starfall castle.

Or maybe that black stone of Bloodstone Emperor, fallen star from which Daynes has forged Dawn, and material from which first Azor Ahai has forged Lightbringer, is the same thing. Maybe first Azor Ahai was that Dayne, that has forged Dawn, and for this he has used Yi Ti's black stone, that was worshiped by Bloodstone Emperor. Maybe the principle is the same as Superman's cryptonite - the power of that black stone during first Long Night has created zombies, so Azor Ahai stole piece of that stone, applied to it R'hllor's magic and blood sacrifice of Nissa Nissa, and turned it into a weapon against those zombies, and the Others, that were also creations of that black stone. The original material has gained different properties after first Azor Ahai forged it thru R'hllor's sacred flames, and Nissa Nissa's heart, so it became milky-white/purified.

Piece of that "star"/comet/meteorite/whatever that is, has fallen on Planetos thousands years ago, but the rest of it continued its journey thru space, and returned to Planetos in early 299, when it was named by Dothraki the Bleeding Star. So maybe Dawn was forged from meteorite, and what people thought to be a comet, was actually an asteroid, from which Starfall's "meteorite" separated and fell on Planetos' surface. Or something like that. 

I'm kind of amused that you presented biblical parallels and christian calendar lore in your post up thread but resist me pointing out science based observations. 

I agree that GRRM still needs to reveal who the three heads of the dragon (riders) will be.  Surely there must be better candidates than stillborn monsters that came into the world with flesh that sloughed off the bone, and insides full of graveworms and the stink of corruption?

You are right that GRRM has created a fantasy world filled with many magical elements but he is also an avid lover of history who knows the difference between a meteor and a comet.  He would understand that comets are periodic, meaning that they have large elliptical orbits that take them far away from the sun where they are inert, distant and invisible to the eye and then race back into the inner solar system where the heat of the sun causes them to warm and release the gasses that form their tails and that they then graze the sun before again retreating to the out realms of the solar system.  He will know that they return at a regular interval measured in decades or even centuries and that their tails increase in magnitude and visibility as they get closer to the sun and that they disappear behind the sun before reappearing only to decrease in magnitude and visibility as they move back to the outer reaches of the solar system where they gradually cool and lose their tail.  He would also know that meteors behave much differently than comets and that they appear suddenly only to flash across the night sky only to disappear a moment later as they burn up in our atmosphere and that bigger ones can survive the high temperatures reached by friction as they hit the atmosphere and fall to the earth where people find them and call them meteorites.  He would also know that most meteorites are rocky and that some are metallic and that there are even examples of people having used that metal to forge blades.  He refers to the Red comet as a comet and he refers to a falling star as a falling star that people were able to track as it fell to earth  and then find.  They were then able to use and forge the metallic rock that struck the earth.  Until relatively modern times humanity tended to equate the appearance of a huge comet that spanned much of the night sky before a backdrop of predictable and unchanging stars and constellations and remaining there for weeks as a bad omen that would likely bring horrible results usually involving results such as plagues, earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes etc. 

aSoIaF opened with the appearance of a huge red comet so bright that it could even be seen in the daytime sky.  It is described numerous times by various characters in various locations (a global event).  Every observer of the red comet interpreted it through the filter of their own regional culture and religion.  They all see the comet bringing widespread doom mixed with some power/magic/privilege provided for themselves or their culture.  GRRM has indicated that prophecy tends to bite it's believers in the ass and I think this story is playing that out.  But I also think that the comet has finished it's inward dive at the sun and is now obscured as it races behind the sun.  I predict that the final chapters of the story will feature a return of the red comet which will serve as a backdrop to the the end of magic and a return to a  natural annual seasonal cycle of seasons. 

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15 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I'm kind of amused that you presented biblical parallels and christian calendar lore in your post up thread but resist me pointing out science based observations. 

I didn't said, that your science based observations are wrong, I just meant, that it's nothing more than a matter of polemics (or is it semantics? :wacko: Sorry, English isn't my native language) - how to call that flying/falling object - comet, star, meteorite, asteroid, or something else.

It doesn't matter, from what kind of material was that bigger flying object (Bleeding Star), because maybe when one piece of it separated from the main body (for example because of collision between Bleeding Star and some other flying object), that separated piece, after flying thru atmosphere of Planetos, changed its properties. Or properties of the original material changed, because this piece of Bleeding Star, after collision with that other flying object, merged with material of that other object. So that falling star, from which was forged Dawn, could be not only a piece of Bleeding Star comet, but a merge of material from which was made Bleeding Star, and material of that other object. So even though comets, as you said before, are clumps of ice, and not rocks or metal, it is still possible, that Dawn was forged from the same material, as material of Bleeding Star + addition of some other materials.

And I presented biblical parallels, because GRRM's works are a strange mix of biblical themes, fantasy and sci-fi elements. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_of_Cross_and_Dragon

Quote

Plot summary

Damien Har Veris, a priest skilled in resolving heretical disputes efficiently, although now spiritually exhausted, is sent by his alien archbishop as Knight Inquisitor to deal with a particular cult that has made a saint of Judas Iscariot.

The sect follows a religious text, The Way of Cross and Dragon, that describes the life of Iscariot, and revises his place in Christianity. The text describes how, born of a prostitute, Iscariot mastered the dark arts to become a tamer of dragons and the ruler of a great empire. After torturing and maiming Christ, Iscariot repented and relinquished his empire to become the penitent Legs of Christ, the first and best-beloved of the Twelve Apostles. Returning from proselytizing to find Christ crucified, an enraged Iscariot then destroyed the perpetrating empire and strangled St. Peter for renouncing Christ, only to discover, too late, Christ's Resurrection. Rejecting Judas' violence, Christ restored St. Peter to life and gave him the keys of the kingdom. St. Peter then suppressed the truth about Judas, vilifying his name and exploits. Seeking redemption for his wrath, Iscariot became the thousand-year-old Wandering Jew, before finally rejoining Christ in the Kingdom of God.

Etc.~~~~

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuf_Voyaging#"Call_Him_Moses"

Quote

While peaceably eating in a restaurant, Tuf is attacked by Jaime Kreen. Kreen is convicted for the attack and bonded to Tuf as a servant in debt. Kreen explains that his society (a technologically advanced secondary colony established as an arcology on the planet Charity) has been taken over by a primitivist religious leader named Moses. Taking his cues from the Bible, Moses had unleashed plagues on the inhabitants of the arcology, driving them out of their city into the countryside to labor and suffer under Moses' back-to-nature Holy Altruistic Restoration.

Kreen had attempted to murder Tuf because he blames Moses' plagues upon Tuf, who has gained an interstellar reputation as an ecological engineer, and Tuf realizes that Moses' "plagues" (actually low-tech simulations easily imposed by sabotage upon the closed system of an arcology) offer him an opportunity for revenue.

Kreen is sent down to the planet to bring back the former leaders of the now-conquered and evacuated arcology for negotiations, and Tuf offers to help them against Moses for a hefty fee. Using the Ark's technology, Tuf introduces himself to Moses as God, in the guise of a pillar of fire. He afflicts the followers of Moses with the bibilical plagues of legend, but these are widespread planetary ecological assaults instead of Moses' fraudulent localized afflictions.

After two such attacks, Tuf invites Moses aboard the Ark and shows him simulations of the increasingly horrible plagues that he could further inflict upon Moses and his followers. Moses, frightened, gives up his claim on the arcology's population, allowing them to escape his nasty, brutish religious fanaticism and return to the comforts of modern civilization.

Maybe Tuf's ship Ark, is what affecting natural span of seasons on Planetos. Maybe dragons are creatures, that were genetically engineered by Tuf, and escaped from his private zoo. Maybe Tuf is ASOIAF's God-on-Earth.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/God-on-Earth

Could be, that ASOIAF, same as some of GRRM's other works, is a mix of biblical themes, fantasy and sci-fi elements. For example, the Others are robots, based on ice-technology; Valyrians are genetically engineered hybrids, whose DNA was fused with DNA of dragons; seasons of Planetos are affected by climate-control device, that is hidden on the Shadow near Asshai, and that Shadow is actually a giant space-ship (maybe the Ark) in stealth mode, so the ship itself is invisible, but it casts a shadow below itself; the Seven Gods, that appeared to Andals in Essos, were aliens; black oily stones are material from another planet; etc.

15 hours ago, White Ravens said:

I agree that GRRM still needs to reveal who the three heads of the dragon (riders) will be.  Surely there must be better candidates than stillborn monsters that came into the world with flesh that sloughed off the bone, and insides full of graveworms and the stink of corruption?

Mirri could have lied about Rhaego. No one besides her was there, when Rhaego was born. Jorah at that time was not in Drogo's tent, same as Dany's handmaids. According to Mirri's version, of what happened, the baby dissolved in her hands, when he was born. And she allowed other people to go to Dany, only after the blood ritual and the childbirth were over, thus no one besides Mirri saw the baby. There is no evidences, that he is dead, but there are evidences, that he is alive (Dany's visions of the future with Rhaego in it).

Eventually we will see, whether he is really dead (that's if he won't return in one of next books). I think, that in the original series, the one that was supposed to be a trilogy, and to have a five year time skip in it, that time skip was needed for Rhaego to grow up. But later GRRM has figured out some other way, how to make Rhaego part of the plot, even though he is still a baby, so he skipped a time skip.

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On 10/13/2018 at 5:37 AM, Springwatch said:

I wouldn't rush to judgement on this one. It's got to be at least possible that each name in this vast array was not a unique inspiration, but generated by some kind of rule. I mean, patterns have been noticed and discussed: the 'Ty', the 'ae' e.t.c.

If names are constructed like this, out of parts, maybe a Stark is just a star with a bit of extra 'k'. And what is a star anyway? Dany says Drogo is her 'sun and stars', Her husband and family, maybe?

Yes, GRRM puts all sorts of weird name stuff in his books so fans will have something to dig through and occupy ourselves with as we rapidly approach a decade between book releases. So get looking for Dany's husband, the sunk and stark 

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On 10/13/2018 at 5:26 PM, The Map Guy said:

Agreed, but what if GRRM wrote that second?

What does that have to do with anything? 

On 10/13/2018 at 5:26 PM, The Map Guy said:

What if, with a blank piece of paper, author GRRM writes a story about Brandon, Lyanna and Ned...and how as a family, everything went wrong from there. GRRM wanted to name this place Starkfall, a place so far far far from home at Winterfell.

you need to ask him then. How the hell would we know? 

On 10/13/2018 at 5:26 PM, The Map Guy said:

Then GRRM creatively removed the 'k' from Starkfall and named it Starfall....THEN he writes about the shooting star, Dawn and Arthur Dayne...and it actually turns into something important to our ASOIAF story.

Ask him. He has an email address and a blog. Get out of wish fulfilment and into asking the author. Shit, you might even surprise us with his answer, but we will never know until you try. 

On 10/13/2018 at 5:26 PM, The Map Guy said:

I dunno, that is just me though. A lot of people here on this forum just focus on the text between the covers of the book.

Lol, sweet summer child. you haven't been here long is you have no idea about the fan fic (theories, plot wishes, what if's) that people will go on an on about vehemently for days and weeks without a single bit of info from the books. There was a thread a while back where someone was certain that Mance Rayder was the knight of the laughing tree. his "evidence" was that mance played the dornishman's wife to Jon in their parley beyond the wall. So yeah. let's stick to  what is written. 

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14 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, GRRM puts all sorts of weird name stuff in his books so fans will have something to dig through and occupy ourselves with as we rapidly approach a decade between book releases. So get looking for Dany's husband, the sunk and stark 

That's clearly 'the sunken stark' - Dany will marry Brandon the Shipwright ...;)

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20 hours ago, the Other Wolf said:

This is a BOOK ONLY forum. NOT a fan fiction forum.  Therefore, it needs to come from the books.

There are plenty of other places for fan fiction.

Well I am using the book, and just like other people here, I craft theories with information from the book...but I like to add in real world stuff too.

19 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, GRRM puts all sorts of weird name stuff in his books so fans will have something to dig through and occupy ourselves with as we rapidly approach a decade between book releases. So get looking for Dany's husband, the sunk and stark 

I just feel that Starfall/Starkfall are very similar as words. And with the compilation of popular theories, the Starks had a "fall" from grace at Starfall.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Greywater Watch, a green swamp with green water, with green this and green that...is not called Greenwater Watch. I do have a theory I mentioned months ago, and it may even explain why all these ASOIAF books are taking so long to come out.

18 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You need to ask him then. How the hell would we know? 

Ask him. He has an email address and a blog. Get out of wish fulfilment and into asking the author. Shit, you might even surprise us with his answer, but we will never know until you try. 

Lol, sweet summer child. you haven't been here long is you have no idea about the fan fic (theories, plot wishes, what if's) that people will go on an on about vehemently for days and weeks without a single bit of info from the books. There was a thread a while back where someone was certain that Mance Rayder was the knight of the laughing tree. his "evidence" was that mance played the dornishman's wife to Jon in their parley beyond the wall. So yeah. let's stick to  what is written. 

GRRM won't admit anything to Starkfall/Starfall because it would require him to confirm B+A, just as if I asked him if the Meereenese Knot had anything to do with Meera Reed, he's not going to say yes because it would also confirm R+L=J.

Yeah some people here have brought in some crazy theories with minimal and weak evidence, but even when I presented my Meera twin theory with some of my evidence, it still didn't convince people. I was told to stick to "what was written", but I'm the Map Guy, I saw my strongest evidence on what GRRM drew on his maps.

Sorry, going off topic. Maybe I'll post my remaining notes on Meera some day.

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1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

I just feel that Starfall/Starkfall are very similar as words. And with the compilation of popular theories, the Starks had a "fall" from grace at Starfall.

While they are very similar,  how has the house fallen from grace? Ned did the honorable thing and returned the sword. He left with a bastard son, but that was his personal dishonor, not his families, and we all know that he was also saving his sister's honor, and protecting the prince of dragonstone's heir. The Starks actually 'fell" at the twins.

1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Greywater Watch, a green swamp with green water, with green this and green that...is not called Greenwater Watch. I do have a theory I mentioned months ago, and it may even explain why all these ASOIAF books are taking so long to come out.

Well, you can piggyback this onto the other question. Also, how would the name of a place cause a near decade delay between books? 

 

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